I know I already asked some help in this thread (http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5ewi?Help-me-create-a-nongimped-level-1-PFS-mo nk) not so long ago, but it turns out I will keep playing a monk for a long campaign (Kingmaker).
Our DM wants an epic campaign, so 25 point buy. He also allows monk to have enchanted gloves at the same price as any other enchanted weapon, which actually should be RAW.
Since building a character that will last has little to do with building a one-shot level 1 character, I decided to create a new thread.
Here are my thoughts about the monk archetypes (condensed):
- Master of Many Styles: very nice, but has little offense (low BAB, no flurry)
- Flowing Master/Master of Manoeuvers: Great at what they do, but manoeuvers get less effective as we get levels (dragons are tough to trip) and besides, I love to punch things hard.
So I decided to go with a martial artist for what seems to me like the best offense of all monks, as well as going crane style to mix some of the best defense.
Here goes to level 15
Str 18
Con 14
Dex 14
Int 9
Wis 16
Cha 7
Feats: Dodge, Crane style, toughness
2 Monk: Combat reflexes
3: Weapon focus (unarmed)
5: Crane wing
6 Monk: Deflect arrows
7: Crane riposte
9: Weapon specialization (unarmed)
10 Monk: Medusa's wrath
11: Greater focus (unarmed)
13: Greater spe (unarmed)
14 Monk: Improved critical
15: Power attack
At level 15, we should have around 240,000 gold which might mean:
- Enchanted gloves + 4 (32 300 gold)
- Bracers of armor +7 (49 000 gold)
- Belt of giant strength +6 (36 000)
- Headband of wisdom +6 (36 000)
- Amulet of natural armor +3 (18 000)
- Ring of protection +4 (32 000)
- Cloak of resistance +4 (16 000)
- Monk's robe (13 000)
AC 42 with crane style, with 1 hit automatically stopped
FoB with -1 crane style: 25/25/20/20/15/15
Damage per hit: 2d10+15
FB with some PA: 21/21/16/16/11/11
Damage per hit: 2d10 +21
I can counterattack once per round with crane style. Once per round, if I succeed on my swift action, I can get +2 to hit OR shoot my AC to 50.
Doesn't sound bad to me.
Medusa's Wrath is difficult to set up, in my opinion. I wouldn't bother with it.
I'm not sure how much use you'll get out of Combat Reflexes, either. I'd swap it out for Improved Grapple or something like that.
What level are you starting at? Because if it's anything higher than 1, I highly recommend maxing out DEX, leaving STR at 10, and getting an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists.
Level 1, sadly... also, as I said, the DM allows us to enchant gloves as weapons. Which cuts on the cost of said Amulet ^^
Medusa's Wrath is difficult to set up, in my opinion. I wouldn't bother with it.
I'm not sure how much use you'll get out of Combat Reflexes, either. I'd swap it out for Improved Grapple or something like that.
I agree about Combat Reflexes. As a matter of fact, improved grapple or trip could make me more flexible.
As for Medusa's Wrath, the save DC of my stunning fist would be 24 (10+ 6 from wis + 7 from level + 1 from Martial Artist) which is actually pretty decent considering I can try once per turn. If it sticks, Medusa's wrath give me two extra attacks, full BAB.
Plus, you know, nothing really great as far as monk feats go ^^
An Agile AoMF is cheaper than an Agile weapon, because the AoMF doesn't have to be +1 first.
Umm... how come you can bypass the requirement of +1?
Plus, the AoMF is in competition to the OP's natural armor boosting amulet.
Medusa's Wrath is difficult to set up, in my opinion. I wouldn't bother with it.
As for Medusa's Wrath, the save DC of my stunning fist would be 24 (10+ 6 from wis + 7 from level + 1 from Martial Artist) which is actually pretty decent considering I can try once per turn. If it sticks, Medusa's wrath give me two extra attacks, full BAB.
Plus, you know, nothing really great as far as monk feats go ^^
Eh DC 24 isn't all that scary at level 15. I did make a monk that could reliably get his Medusa extra attacks. Half elf with maxed out intimidate with enforcer(do non-leathal to demoralize for a long time) and shatter defences (enemies are flat-footed if shaken). I picked weapon master for the free weapon focus to help with the preques, but it's not needed.
An Agile AoMF is cheaper than an Agile weapon, because the AoMF doesn't have to be +1 first.Umm... how come you can bypass the requirement of +1?
Plus, the AoMF is in competition to the OP's natural armor boosting amulet.
AOMF don't need the normal +1 to get other enhancements.
If I were willing to wait for 2 or 3 levels to invest in an Agile AOMF, I could dump STR and go with:
Str 8
Dex 20
Con 14
Int 9
Wis 16
Cha 7
I don't think it's all that useful, though. I would only get +3 AC in the long run (that I would have gotten through an amulet of natural armor) and I would have to take Weapon Finesse - and probably agile manoeuvers as well.
Looks much better with a Str build imo.
Don't ask me, ask the people who explicitly wrote that exception into the item description.An Agile AoMF is cheaper than an Agile weapon, because the AoMF doesn't have to be +1 first.Umm... how come you can bypass the requirement of +1?
Eh it makes sense to me for damn expensive those things are.
I would suggest a one level dip into unarmed fighter or possibly a 3 level dip into brawler to get weapon training (+1/+3). I would get rid of the weapon focus/specialization, etc. and take snake style in addition to crane style and combat style master to switch between the two as a free action. This will make combat reflexes much more useful and grants you significantly more attacks - all at your highest BAB.
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Weapon Finesse - and probably agile manoeuvers as well.
In case you're not aware, Weapon Finesse will apply to any maneuver for which you actually employ a weapon. By default, that's disarm, sunder and trip. If you have a finessable weapon with the Trip weapon quality, then add drag and reposition to that list.
But as to your build, yes, it does cost you at least one feat. Just throwing the option out there. :)
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ok level 15 monk build.
you said you didnt like manuever master i am going to point out some VERY cool things about it read the flurry of maneuvers carefully. do you see it does nto have the same restrictions on it that flurry of blows has. i.e. you can use any weapon with it and it is not the same as 2 handed fighting so you can use a 2 handed weapon and not lose any attacks. also only the maneuvers take a negative all attacks are done as normal. so at level 15 you have 3 combat maneuvers that can all be standard action maneuvers i.e. dirty trick at -2/-5/-9. now we have weapon focus in my build and with your 25 point buy i did (STR: 10 DEX: 14 CON: 14 INT: 12 WIS: 20 CHA: 7) and i enchant the gloves to be a +2 guided. also a +4 wisdom and +4 dex item and of course a monks robes for damage. bringing my attacks up to 29 (+7 wisdom+15 lvl+2 enhancement+1 weapon focus+4 cmb bonus) and using the maneuver master ability each round i can add +7 to any one cmb i attempt. also use quiggong to pick up a few tricks like ki stand, bark skin, and restoration.
here is my build idea
monk feats/replacements
1 bonus feat improved trip
flurry of blows flurry of maneuvers
stunning fist
unarmed strike
level one feat weapon focus unarmed strike
human feat combat reflexes
2 bonus feat improved dirty trick
evasion
3 fast movement
maneuver training
still mind maneuver defense
level 3 feat panther style
4 ki pool
slow fall 20 reliable maneuver
5 high jump ki stand
purity of body meditative maneuver
level 5 feat dazzling display
6 bouns feat greater trip
slow fall 30 gone
7 wholeness of body bark skin
level 7 feat panther claw
8 slow fall 40 gone
9 improved evasion
level 9 feat shatter defenses
10 bonus feat medusas wrath
ki pool lawful
slow fall 50 gone
11 diamond body sweeping maneuver
level 11 feat panther parry
12 abundant step
slowfall 60 gone
13 diamond soul restoration
level 13 feat improved disarm
14 bonus feat greater dirty trick
slow fall 70 gone
15 quivering palm whirlwind maneuver
level 15 feat greater disarm
your normal attack round with this should be as follows with only a +2 guided glove and current stats
FLURRY OF MANEUVERS
+27 dirty trick apply shacken makes them flatfooted triggers medusas wrath
+24 trip provokes an ao that u use to disarm also at +24
+27 (use meditative maneuver) dirty trick apply blinded
now your enemies ac is at a -6 and -dex.
+19 medusas wrath strike for 2d10
+19 second medusas wrath strike for 2d10
+19 primary attack strike for 2d10 (and you can throw in stunning fist if you want since there saves are at -2 from shaken and your save is 24 fort)
+15 secondary attack for 2d10
+10 last attack at 2d10
when your done your opponenet has been hit as many as 5 times. hes blinded, shaken, flatfooted, missing his weapon, prone, and not loving life. in addition to all of this since you have greater dirty trick your afflictions will last longer and take a standard action to remove. since you can keep him stunned also this means he cannot remove them. so you could essentially stack and overlap a bunch of afflictions with dirty trick making your opponent unable to recover.
yes i agree there are some monsters trip does not work against but dirty trick trip and disarm are a POWERFUL combination.
As for Medusa's Wrath, the save DC of my stunning fist would be 24 (10+ 6 from wis + 7 from level + 1 from Martial Artist) which is actually pretty decent considering I can try once per turn. If it sticks, Medusa's wrath give me two extra attacks, full BAB.
I'm probably just skeptical since I've almost never gotten Stunning Fist to work (either the attack misses or the target makes its save).
Plus, you know, nothing really great as far as monk feats go ^^
An excellent point!
ok level 15 monk build.
I agree, that looks like a great build and a fun one.
However, by losing the crane chain and martial artist, I lose a lot of defense. The manoeuver master is a beast during his turn, but he seems a bit squishier to me.
Against a single human opponent, I guess your build wins, no contest.
But against more of those ? Or a dragon ?
Here are the CR 17 monsters I can expect to meet at this level:
Marilith (CMD 42, can't be tripped and 42 is quite high for dirty trick)
Black Wyrm (CMD 47, 51 against trip)
Wendigo (CMD 47)
Ice Linnorm (CMD 56,no trip).
No monster I can see in the Bestiary 1 will even notice a manoeuver...
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ok level 15 monk build.I agree, that looks like a great build and a fun one.
However, by losing the crane chain and martial artist, I lose a lot of defense. The manoeuver master is a beast during his turn, but he seems a bit squishier to me.
Against a single human opponent, I guess your build wins, no contest.
But against more of those ? Or a dragon ?Here are the CR 17 monsters I can expect to meet at this level:
Marilith (CMD 42, can't be tripped and 42 is quite high for dirty trick)
Black Wyrm (CMD 47, 51 against trip)
Wendigo (CMD 47)
Ice Linnorm (CMD 56,no trip).No monster I can see in the Bestiary 1 will even notice a manoeuver...
a marilith with a 42 cmd and i still have a 27 to start that requires me to roll a 15 but i could also just add 7 to my first roll instead of my 3rd starting me off with a 34 now i only need an 8. but just like any build there will be problems. also assume that by level 15 you will have a cleric or wizard in the party handing out buffs.
to kind of counteract the squishiness of the maneuver master they have some great abilities like maneuver defense. also with the quiggong abilities you can cast barkskin and restoration on yourself giving you an added protective ability which i really like.but with the panther chain you can drop a ton of enemies in one round just by charging and provoking aos then tripping with the parry and disarming with the ao from the trip lol.
the primary weakness with this build is that until you get the guided item you have a very low attack. but once you have that you become a complete beast.
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and another thing to consider for each maneuver you get to work the next one will hit easier. by reducing the eneimies saves and ac you also make the rest of the party more effective.
you could also drop the unarmed strike focus of my build and take weapon profficiency for a fauchard or a barariche and start tripping at range. though this loses you the panther style which i very much enjoy.
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Those 40s aren't that scary. By 15 you probably have a +7 from your strength, maybe higher. Add your monk level to that for your base of +22 CMB. Then add +4 from Improved and Greater, and that's a base +26 on two manoeuvres of your choice. Remember that a manoeuvre master can add his wisdom to a single manoeuvre as a swift action for free, so we can feasibly increase that to a base +30 for a single manoeuvre. If you're going for a trip we can also add the enhancement bonus on your weapon along with weapon focus; if it's a Dirty Trick then +30 before any outside buffs is not shabby. Remember to factor in other cool stuff like haste, heroism, etc. as well.
First, the Dex route is a trap, unless you don't mind doing next to no damage until you pay your gear and feat taxes. Not worth it at all, IMO. The Wis/guided weapon route looks great at higher levels, but getting there will be hell. If you're growing the character organically, I'd advise strongly against that. Str all the way.
I'd also like to vote for Maneuver Master, unless flavor/character is guiding you to Martial Artist. The martial artist is a very good option for an offensive build. Combined with crane style, as you've done, the defense is solid enough as well. Regardless of archetype, if you're not gonna get Vicious Stomp, I'd second losing combat reflexes for an improved maneuver feat of your choice; this gives you a full BAB option after movement, as well as better versatility.
Another blow to the MA IMO is that I rather dislike giving up Ki Pool, both for flavor and mechanical reasons. To me, this is the Monk's defining class feature; I wouldn't feel like a monk without it. Its just so flexible, and that extra attack on a FA is pretty tough to lose out on. You also lose the ability to trade out for VERY useful Ki abilities like Barkskin, not to mention retaining some Ki abilities (Abundant Step) that you'll simply be unable to use, as you'll lack a Ki Pool as a martial artist. That's rather unfortunate.
Also note that in a path like Kingmaker, limited resource pools like Ki are astronomically more powerful than in your standard campaign. Your average adventuring day is going to contain 2-3 encounters, MAX (with some exceptions of course). We've been pushing ahead and exploring faster than is required, so we're getting several encounters per day, but my Kingmaker Monk uses a Ki point at virtually every opportunity (on most full attacks), and I've yet to even really come close to running out. And that's with burning 1-2 points per day to keep barkskin going as needed.
As to the concern of a Maneuver Master being "squishier", there's nothing stopping you from being a MM with crane style. I went with dragon style on my guy for more damage on unarmed attacks and to qualify for Elemental Fist with full progression, but crane is great if you're willing to let your unarmed lag a bit in favor of defense.
Also, as you know, all you lose for wearing armor in this archetype is fast movement and Wis/Monk bonuses to AC (armor will generally grant higher AC). With a 1-4 level dip into fighter (I'm planning on going Brawler 4 as mentioned above for that +1/+3 in addition to WF/WS), you get the armor proficiencies and you're set. It actually has the potential to be better defensively than most monk builds. Plus, you've still got the option of going without armor some of the time if and when the situation calls for it. And you maintain the ability to burn a Ki point for +4 AC, stackable with fighting defensively for an impressive AC bump on demand if things get dicey.
Dirty Trick --> Shatter Defenses --> Medusa's Wrath is also good advice. Also note that while the penalties for multiple maneuvers gets rather high, you don't have to attempt all of them that you're capable of. Want to make sure you land them? Just throw 1-2 maneuvers onto your full attack routine (which is not negatively impacted in any way: its at 3/4 BAB vs. full but it also doesn't get hit with the -2 of FoB or any penalty from extra maneuvers). You don't have to attempt that 3rd maneuver (or 2nd for that matter), if you don't want to. Plus, you can always add your Wis mod to the rolls or burn Ki to roll twice if the maneuvers are more important than an extra attack at the moment.
TL;DR - Maneuver Master is a FANTASTIC archetype; I'm in no way regretting the choice to run with one, and really haven't missed FoB too much. Extra attacks are great, but adding a Blind (via Dirty Trick) or a Grapple initiation onto my full attack has been WAY more fun and versatile, not to mention life saving on some occasions. Also, Ki is very powerful, doubly so in Kingmaker.
That's great advice here.
I don't know, I guess I'm pretty set on the Martial artist. The ability to get once a round a 1/2 level bonus on AC, ref (and sense motive) is so sick that it kind of makes the lack of ki moot.
It seems to me the Martial Artist:
- deals way more damage (through fighter feats)
- is way more accurate (through fighter feats and +2 bonus)
- can be the most defensive build when needed (through + 1/2 level bonus)
I agree that I lose some flexibility with no ki (especially no Abundant step) but it seems a small price to pay. Although I see what you mean about Kingmaker and ki being even more important then.
Didn't think about that. Hmm...
Won't I lose a lot (and I mean A LOT, like 50%) of my damage potential by going Manoeuver master ?
That's great advice here.
Won't I lose a lot (and I mean A LOT, like 50%) of my damage potential by going Manoeuver master ?
Don't think it'd be 50%, but yes, you'll definitely lose significant damage going with MM vs. MA. Mainly because you lose FoB for FoM (which is very versatile, but certainly not as damaging). Of course, you get back a damaging option on full attacks vs. MA due to being able to use Ki for an extra attack at highest bonus vs. the + to attack MA gets. The offensive longevity advantage that a MA would normally hold over a Ki using monk is moot in Kingmaker, as resource management is a virtual non-issue.
The fighter feats MA qualifies for are nice, but since MM dovetails so well with a fighter dip due to the armor proficiencies and ability to wear it, you can still pick WF/WS up that way (without any net loss in feats due to fighter bonus feats; effectively, this frees up your normal feats currently earmarked for WF/WS for other stuff). You do lose out on the greater versions, but you can also get an extra +1/+3 with unarmed strike via the Brawler fighter archetype, so you can actually come out a bit ahead on that front. Of course, the fighter dip delays monk progression, so you'll have to decide when you want to fit it in.
Defensively, the MA may be even until the MM begins wearing armor (whenever you take the 1st fighter level). If you don't want to wear armor, the MA's 1/2 level bonus to AC is going to be tough to beat later on, although bear in mind, before level 8, the Ki Point option to boost AC by 4 is still better than 1/2 level, and will stack with armor as well. That, and you can tack Barkskin on top for even more AC (while freeing up your neck slot for say an AoMF). That's why I said that MM has better defensive potential.
Just food for thought. The MA is still great. The two options are just different, not superior to one another IMO. If ya want higher and more sustainable damage, MA is probably better. If ya want better defensive potential (with armor anyway, also better at early levels but worse at later levels without armor, though less sustainable due to Ki requirements) with the added versatility of maneuvers + full attack, go MM. In Kingmaker, the sustainability question (where MA will always come out ahead) is not nearly as vital, but it'll still come up at times.
No wrong answer really.
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If you want even more damage as a MA Monk, consider the Dragon Style Martial Artist; it does incredible damage when you go 2 feats in, and it also qualifies you for the scaling Elemental Fist (entirely optional but a possibility). You can also do this with starting off with as an Unarmed Fighter first for the free Style feat (you do also pick up some cool weapon proficiencies).
To make it work, go with this for your feats:
1. Unarmed Fighter
2-15 Monk
Feats:
1: Power Attack
1 Human: Weapon Focus (unarmed)
1 Fighter: Dragon Style
2 Monk: Dodge
3 Monk: Combat Reflexes
3: ?
5: Dragon Ferocity
7: Weapon Spec: unarmed
7 Monk: Deflect arrows
9: Greater Weapon Focus (unarmed)
10 Monk: Medusa's wrath
11: Elemental Fist?
13: Greater spe (unarmed)
15 Monk: Improved critical
15: ?
If you don't want the fighter dip, then go this route:
Feats: Dodge, Combat Reflexes, toughness
2 Monk: Deflect Arrows
3: Weapon focus (unarmed)
5: Dragon Style
6 Monk: Mobility?
7: Dragon Ferocity
9: Weapon specialization (unarmed)
10 Monk: Medusa's wrath
11: Greater focus (unarmed)
13: Greater spe (unarmed)
14 Monk: Improved critical
15: Power attack
Assuming you put 2 of your ability score increases into strength (to make it 26 Str with the belt), this will add another 4 damage per strike unarmed (2d10 + 20) with another +4 damage on the first strike each round.
Another alternative is the Dexterous Unarmed Mantis Build using what Jiggy suggested. This goes with using Weapon Finesse and Agile Gloves/Amulet for using Dex as your primary offense stat. Mantis Style as a single feat makes your Stunning Fists harder to resist (+2 to DC) and gives you another use per day.
Stats:
Str 10
Dex 18
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 18
Cha 7
A feat build would look something like this.
1g. Weapon Finesse
1h. Toughness
1b. Dodge
2b. Combat Reflexes
3g. Mantis Style
5g. Weapon Focus (unarmed)
6b. Deflect Arrows or Mobility
7g. Weapon Spec. (unarmed)
9g. Greater Weapon Focus (unarmed)
10b. Medusa's Wrath
11g. Piranha Strike
13g. Greater Weapon Spec (unarmed)
14b. Imp Crit (unarmed)
15g. Pin Down?
Downside of course is that until you get the Agile gloves/AoMF, your damage will be pretty pathetic. But your AC boost will be nice and the extra starting Wisdom and Mantis Style will give you DC 27 Stunning Fists at level 14.
A couple of variations for ya. Good luck!
BPC
Losing ki is a big deal as well. Manoeuvre master is low damage, but monks are pretty low damage anyway. If you want a high damage martial artist, go with the [unarmed fighter] fighter archetype.
I think the MA build buries the fighter (even 2H fighter power-attacking) into the ground any day. I might be wrong, though, but to me it seems like much more damage.
I think the MA build buries the fighter (even 2H fighter power-attacking) into the ground any day. I might be wrong, though, but to me it seems like much more damage.
That's a seriously un-optimized fighter (I'm not even sure why he's a fighter) if the monk can do more damage. It's highly unlikely that a monk, no matter how well optimized, will dish out more damage than a fighter. Now, if you really want to go for damage, there's nothing more fun than a barbarian.
Losing ki is a big deal as well. Manoeuvre master is low damage, but monks are pretty low damage anyway. If you want a high damage martial artist, go with the [unarmed fighter] fighter archetype.I think the MA build buries the fighter (even 2H fighter power-attacking) into the ground any day. I might be wrong, though, but to me it seems like much more damage.
Not only does the MA not bury a 2H power-attacking fighter in terms of damage dealt, I'd be surprised if it surpassed a vanilla fighter fighting barefisted. Somebody ran a bunch of numbers demonstrating that the monk isn't even clearly the best at the unarmed fighting game - they're in one of the "guys, the clarification breaks so much monk stuff" threads - and I'd be surprised if MA adds enough to surpass the unarmed fighter, much less a fighter using a much higher-damage style. Edit: It's here, and it's Lorekeeper's posts in the last several pages.
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5drg&page=9?Attacking-with-a-weapon
I am not seeing it the MA outdoing the fighter. He is still basically TWF'ing, and the bonus damage on attacks is more of a factor than the base damage of the weapon which is why TWF'ing with dagger, and the sawtooth sabre does not show a great increase in DPR, even though the base damage of the Sabre is twice that of the dagger.
I don't think they ran the test with a Martial Artist.
If they did, then their math is wrong.
At level 20, assuming 30 STR for both and a +5 enchantment, and for both:
- Weapon focus and greater
- Weapon spe and greater
- Power attack
The MA with all the warrior feats + Dragon style will have seven hits.
+35/+35/+30/+30/+25/+25/+20 (goes to +37/+37/+32/+32/+27/+27/+22 with his exploit witness)
First hit will deal 2d10+10(str)+5(enh)+10(dragon style)+4(spe and greater) or 2d10+29 (40 avg)
Other hits will deal 2d10+24 (35 avg)
Assuming the opponent has 40 AC, thats's an average of:
90%*40+90%*35+65%*35*2+40%*35*2+15%*35= 146,25 damage.
Oh, and that ignores DR.
Now the 2H fighter has 4 attacks
+35/+30/+25/+20
If he's vanilla and using a greatsword, that's 2d6+15 (str) + 4 (spe) +5 (enchant) = 2d6+24
Which means he would deal against AC 40: 80%*31+55%*31+30%*31+5%*31 = 52,7 damage. Uck.
Of course, he can power attack (-5/+15) and even ignore the first penalty because of furious focus.
So that would be 80%*46+30%*46+5%*46+5%*46=55,2. Whoop dee doo.
Now I didn't factor in crits, but they won't change the fact that the fighter damage output is three times worse.
Whoops, forgot weapon training for +4/+4.
So now it's +39/+34/29/24 and 2d6+28 damage.
0,95*35+0,75*35+0,5*35+0,25*35=85,75.
Better.
And with PA:
0,95*50+0,5*50+0,25*50+0,05*50= 87,5.
Halfway through, go fighter. You can do it.
That build is not complete. We have no clear idea of where those bonuses are coming from. There is no need to make a build past levels 10-12 most times, because whoever is head at that point normally stays ahead.
I also have no idea why that fighter only has a +35. The +35 can be obtained by level 15 as fighter.
I do have a 12th level fighter already made from another post, and it is already pushing 81DPR with no buffs. It is using 25 pb, but if you wish to use a lower PB we can, but that is not in the monk's favor.
Could you post your build and tell me how much gold you used to equip him ? I'd love to do the maths ;)
Standard gold for 12th level is 108,000 gp
25 pb.
post with my fighter's DPR numbers compared to Asheil's paladin using various buffs.
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its been a bit since my first post promoting the maneuver master monk. may i say one more thing about it. a player who builds a character to outshine and damage all others is usually nto optimized to the party. consider what making an opponent flatfooted blind and shaken can do in terms of the rest of the party. now your rogue can sneak attack constantly. anyone with a 3/4 bab has a much better chance to hit. everyone now uses there power attack and deadly aim. also consider the POWER of the dirty trick. in one round i can lower my opponents saves attack rolls skill checks by 4. shaken and sickened. i can make it to where the opponenet cannot take aos. flat footed via shaken through shatter defenses. i can take away there weapon i can make there life a living hell. do not always consider your dpr. consider the boost to the party.. an opponent with no weapon deals little damage. an opponent that is stunned and misses a turn does 0 damage. if he is not hitting people then your cleric is doing something besides spot healing saving him a couple of his rounds in combat. also with the amount of attacks you can get through the medusas proc you can dish out some very heavy damage with that +2 guided amulet or glove. thats (with a 7 mod to wisdom) 9 damage plus 2d10 every hit. and do that 5 times in a round. thats 10d10+45.
just look more into building a party and less into building a character. thats my advice at least.
I like the original idea, but would move weapon focus way later. Get deflect arrows and crane riposte faster, and worry about the +1 later.
At low levels, your unarmed strike is only a d6, exactly what most monk weapons do. So, use a monk weapon, and buy a MW weapon when you can. Instead of spending a third of your feats on it, you can spend 300 gold.
Feats are important. You CANNOT waste them. Unlike a fighter, you don't have any extra. If you are only getting a +1, you could do better.
And because of the way Kingmaker rolls, the ki pool is AMAZING. Trust us. You asked for advice, remember? Plus, you're exploring the wilderness, so expect proper monsters and not just humanoid opponents. You can't disarm a beast with claws and teeth.
Standard gold for 12th level is 108,000 gp
25 pb.post with my fighter's DPR numbers compared to Asheil's paladin using various buffs.
I'll assume same STR as you do (20/24) and same enchant as you do (+3).
Feats choice (that impact damage):
Weapon focus @3, Weapon spe @5, dragon style @7, dragon ferocity @9, greater weapon focus @11.
Now flurry is 10 (base) + 7 (str) + 3 (enchant) +2 (focus) + 2 (find weakness) = 24.
So my attacks are 24/24/19/19/14.
My damage is 2d6 (base) + 7 (str) + 7 (first hit dragon) or 3 (secondary hits) + 3 (enchant) + 2 (spe) = 2d6+19 on first hit, 2d6+15 on secondary hits.
Vs AC 27 (the very same you used), that gives us:
0,9*26+0,9*22+0,65*22*2+0,4*22= 80,6.
I didn't even factor the crits. And that bypasses any DR, btw.
just look more into building a party and less into building a character. thats my advice at least.
I totally agree. However, people kept saying a monk couldn't do damage and was lagging in this area. I believe the exact opposite.
Besides, it looks like our group will be one paladin, one wizard, one oracle of life and one bard. This means I will have to do my share of damage ^^
And because of the way Kingmaker rolls, the ki pool is AMAZING. Trust us. You asked for advice, remember? Plus, you're exploring the wilderness, so expect proper monsters and not just humanoid opponents. You can't disarm a beast with claws and teeth.
Yeah, your feat choices are sound, I will probably move those around to follow your advice.
As for ki pool, even if it were unlimited, I don't find it that amazing - apart from abundant step, yeah.
How are you bypassing any DR?
I would also say that I can adjust it to put our more damage if needed, and still keep the viable for a real game instead of just looking at damage. If you feel the need to include everything then do so. Right now the fighter is still ahead. In an actual game saves and AC will count also. You can kill anything if you are dead because you ignored defense.
I don't know what those commas are for, but in any event I am getting in in at 75.60.
Exploit weakness allows you to bypass DR if you make a wisdom check.
Against a CR 12 opponent Since you get to add the monk level it will succeed most of the time, but it is not an auto-success.
Halfway through, go fighter. You can do it.
Gloves of dueling are a must and increase WT by +2/+2. The Two-Handed Fighter Archetype gives double STR bonus to damage on all but the first attacks.
That makes:
+41/36/31/24 and 2d6+35 (+30 on first attack)
with PA
+41/31/26/19 and 2d6+53 (+48 on first attack)
with improved critical this is against AC 40:
137,75 (w/o PA)
138,3 (w PA)
Potentially a +2 greatsword of speed instead of a +5 greatsword will increase this numbers further.
Halfway through, go fighter. You can do it.
Gloves of dueling are a must and increase WT by +2/+2. The Two-Handed Fighter Archetype gives double STR bonus to damage on all but the first attacks.
That makes:
+41/36/31/24 and 2d6+35 (+30 on first attack)with PA
+41/31/26/19 and 2d6+53 (+48 on first attack)with improved critical this is against AC 40:
137,75 (w/o PA)
138,3 (w PA)
Potentially a +2 greatsword of speed instead of a +5 greatsword will increase this numbers further.
He(Gren's build) is still behind the fighter. What are those commas separating for the numbers?
edit:When I calculated his DPR I even included crit chance.
How are you bypassing any DR?
I would also say that I can adjust it to put our more damage if needed, and still keep the viable for a real game instead of just looking at damage. If you feel the need to include everything then do so. Right now the fighter is still ahead. In an actual game saves and AC will count also. You can kill anything if you are dead because you ignored defense.
I agree that saves and AC will count also. However, we were talking purely of damage.
As for save, the monk is usually better than the fighter (at least in ref and will), even with the fighter taking Imp Will.
As for AC, it all comes down on what equipment we have. And don't forget that, in a pinch, the level 12 MA can forsake his +2 to attack in order to get +6 to AC
As for skills, you have more than a fighter.
Again, I'm not saying a monk is better than a fighter, for it's not the case. I'm just saying he can be built to DPS as well as a fighter, which is a very different subject ;)
I don't know what those commas are for, but in any event I am getting in in at 75.60.
Exploit weakness allows you to bypass DR if you make a wisdom check.
Against a CR 12 opponent Since you get to add the monk level it will succeed most of the time, but it is not an auto-success.
I didn't understand your first sentence, what do you mean ? How are you calculating DPR ?
As for bypassing DR, I agree, it's not an auto-success. However, it's still kind of useful.
+41/31/26/19 and 2d6+53 (+48 on first attack)
with improved critical this is against AC 40:
137,75 (w/o PA)
138,3 (w PA)
Potentially a +2 greatsword of speed instead of a +5 greatsword will increase this numbers further.
Haha, now you're getting closer ^^
How are you bypassing any DR?
I would also say that I can adjust it to put our more damage if needed, and still keep the viable for a real game instead of just looking at damage. If you feel the need to include everything then do so. Right now the fighter is still ahead. In an actual game saves and AC will count also. You can kill anything if you are dead because you ignored defense.
I agree that saves and AC will count also. However, we were talking purely of damage.
As for save, the monk is usually better than the fighter (at least in ref and will), even with the fighter taking Imp Will.
As for AC, it all comes down on what equipment we have. And don't forget that, in a pinch, the level 12 MA can forsake his +2 to attack in order to get +6 to AC
As for skills, you have more than a fighter.
Again, I'm not saying a monk is better than a fighter, for it's not the case. I'm just saying he can be built to DPS as well as a fighter, which is a very different subject ;)
I don't know what those commas are for, but in any event I am getting in in at 75.60.
Exploit weakness allows you to bypass DR if you make a wisdom check.
Against a CR 12 opponent Since you get to add the monk level it will succeed most of the time, but it is not an auto-success.I didn't understand your first sentence, what do you mean ? How are you calculating DPR ?
As for bypassing DR, I agree, it's not an auto-success. However, it's still kind of useful.
I am using a spreadsheet which gives me the same numbers as the people on the DPR threads.
I also got 2d6+17 not 2d6+19
STR mode is +7. The dragon style feats says you get x1.5 instead of x1. That means you have +10
The weapon spec, and greater weapons spec feats combine to get you +4
The enhancement gives a +3
10+4+3=7
As for my first question I am asking about this-->80,6.
What is the ",6" for?
I am using a spreadsheet which gives me the same numbers as the people on the DPR threads.
I also got 2d6+17 not 2d6+19
STR mode is +7. The dragon style feats says you get x1.5 instead of x1. That means you have +10
The weapon spec, and greater weapons spec feats combine to get you +4
The enhancement gives a +310+4+3=7
As for my first question I am asking about this-->80,6.
What is the ",6" for?
To answer your first point, you forgot dragon ferocity. It adds another +1/2 str to EVERY ATTACK.
On the other hand, I don't have greater weapon spe, so that's only +2 there.
This means 2d6+19 on first hit, 2d6+15 on other ones.
To answer your second point, that's the way we write decimals in a number. I know the american way is different (you write 80.6 where we write 80,6). I guess both ways can be understood ^^
What are those commas separating for the numbers?
European notation.
I also got 2d6+17 not 2d6+19
STR mode is +7. The dragon style feats says you get x1.5 instead of x1. That means you have +10
The weapon spec, feat gives +2
The enhancement gives a +3
The dragon feriocity gives you a +3
I am not only getting 2d6+18 for the first hit.
The 2d6+15 for the secondary hits is correct.
I did use the 19 for calculations and now I have you at about 79.07
That is without the +2 from find weakness.
My second stat for my fighter had a mod of +3. That means the monk gets a +15 when trying to activate find weakness. The DC is 22 .68 chance of it activating. .68x2= 1.36.
87.94 is the DPR with find weakness added in assuming it works 68% of the time.
The monk now has a 7 point lead, but since this is a DPR contest, and not a viable build contest I may as well dump the half orc for a human.
----------------------------------------------------
This allows me to pick up the falcata.
DPR for the fighter is now 91.98 without furious focus.
With furious focus(dropping iron will or some other feat) I get 97.09.
As the levels increase the fighter only pulls farther away.
I bow to your math. Seems a fighter built to deal huge damage will outdamage a monk built the same way.
Which is actually reassuring since the monk will have skills and better saves.
Anyway, this was all theorycraft since I will take crane style in lieu of dragon style, but I thought it was worth mentioning that the monk could be an effective damage dealer. Not as effective as a fighter, though. I'll keep that in mind.
Edit: Is it the same at level 20 ? You seem to say that the distance will rise, but the monk will gain even more attacks while the fighter will only grab two more weapon training points.
The fighter gets his class bonuses to weapons. As for comparing unarmed attack damage vs weapon base damage I will say bonus damage is more important than base damage, and the fighter will have a bigger bonus.
Penalties to attack are also very hurtful. As you notice sense weakness gave you 7 more DPR and it is only a +2. Well actually it was 1.4 since I included that chance that it might fail, and yeah the monk gets more attacks, but at a lower attack bonus.
The crit range of weapons is also a big factor.
Now I'm wondering.
Assuming I go Martial Artist (yeah, I know, not the best choice, but I must have seen too many kung-fu flicks when I was young), what style would you choose ?
- Dragon style and Dragon Roar (for huge DPR increase)
- Crane style, Crane wing and Crane Riposte (for +4 AC/-1 att, one attack negated and a free riposte)
I'm also thinking about panther style, but that's a bit too situational.
So there you go, here's the choice. Dragon is straightforward DPR (without it, I lose about 20 DPR). Crane is straightforward survivability.