So tomorrow, we have a PVP arena. 6 players enter, one man leaves.
I'm expecting to see alot of 'toothy' Barbarians with Greatswords charging around. It's level 5 only. No wands and only 2 consumables.
There's no cover, just the battlemat. 1 round to prep then initiative.
I'm trying to think outside the box a little.
I'm wondering what people think the strongest class will be?
I'm trying to think outside the box. And I'm thinking Heavens oracles/Sorcerer. For Color Spray @ DC 19. If they fail they drop unconcious and I CDG them with a Katana for a big Fort save...
Alternatively, what about a Cavalier with Ride By Attack and a lance. Keep mobile, keep charging.
Any suggestions on what 5th level character would have an advantage here?
A bard.
No, seriously, I've not much respect for them but probably is your best bet.
Get 5 barbarian and one respectable caster in an arena and your caster is dead.
Instead, be a bard, cast mirror image so that none of them will want to waste his time with you until there are other more dangerous foes left, and then, when only one remain, use glitterdust, color spray or whatever (with the highest CD you can get) and then kill the guy.
Other than that, at those levels you can turtle extremely well: My barbarian, fully optimized, was killed 2 times in a row by a shield using ranger because I was not hitting him at all, while he was hitting all the time.
The best option though would be wizard: mirror image and fly let you take your time to kill all the barbarians you want.
I'd go with a wizard or witch: Invisiblity + Fly should allow you to sit out some of the initial carnage (maybe throw in a summoned monster or two), then you can finish the rest off with the rest of your spells (and/or hexes).
I'd go with a wizard or witch: Invisiblity + Fly should allow you to sit out some of the initial carnage (maybe throw in a summoned monster or two), then you can finish the rest off with the rest of your spells (and/or hexes).
This. Except maybe take a ranged ranger and use a potion of invis and fly and wait it out. Then shoot whoever is left standing.
Yeah, an invisible, flying witch will rock them. You can summon monsters without becoming visible, and a barbarian's chance to save against your slumber hex will be pretty poor, even with superstition. If they take Iron Will also, well, you have other ways to fix their wagon.
Also, if you just want a weapon for coup de grace without spending any feats for it, a spear is a good option since it has a x3 crit multiplier.
An important thing to remember about arena fights: Don't misunderestimate the advantage of having a pet! It basically doubles your actions every round.
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Summoner with augment summoning and invisibility.
Round 1: Invisibiliy
Round 2-till you run out: Summon Monster 3 and then move so they don't know your position. You can have fly as a spell so footprints don't give you away.
Throw in haste for your monsters once in a while. Never attack directly. If they kill all your summoned beasties then fly up and summon your eidolon. It takes a minute but by then you might only have one opponent. Make sure you eidolon won't just smash to the ground though.
You can have fly as a spell so footprints don't give you away.
A level 5 summoner wouldn't have Fly as a known spell. Are you referring to a scroll or potion of Fly?
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You can have fly as a spell so footprints don't give you away.A level 5 summoner wouldn't have Fly as a known spell. Are you referring to a scroll or potion of Fly?
For some reason I assumed they were 9 level casters. I guess he could use levitate or a fly scroll. The real thing is he should summon stuff and haste groups of them periodically.
He could never need to actually fight himself.
edit: One tactic could be to cast invisibly. Summon one monster (or a group of lower summons) then levitate up and wait for everything to shake out. Then when one or more enemies are eliminated you start summoning like mad.
I think that unless you have a good reason to think you will be facing a bunch of melees, then do NOT do that. You might just be playing with people who simply never play casters, and that's fine, but if you think they're doing that because that's what pops into your head when you think arena style fighting, I'd be very careful about that.
Invisibility is defeated by a cantrip. Even a single level dip by your opponents might screw up that strategy. Fly can be planned for as well (ranged stuff).
Unless you -know- that you will be fighting martial enemies, I would try to have contingencies for any situation you can think of.
Invisibility is defeated by a cantrip.
Don't leave me hanging...which cantrip?
Detect Magic.
EDIT: Don't get me wrong, it's not an autowin button against Invisibility. But any smart player can use it in a way that they can use it as an effective counter.
Detect Magic.
Ah, yes. Because in the middle of a 5-man battle royale, the first thing you want to do is concentrate for three rounds. :-)
Ah, yes. Because in the middle of a 5-man battle royale, the first thing you want to do is concentrate for three rounds. :-)
I don't wanna be THAT guy, but it's actually a 6-man battle royale.
I'm not saying it ought to take precedence. I am just saying, basing a combat strategy, in any event, that can be defeated easily is not a good idea.
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Detect Magic.
EDIT: Don't get me wrong, it's not an autowin button against Invisibility. But any smart player can use it in a way that they can use it as an effective counter.
That is one reason why I suggested fly or levitate so you could be further than 60 feet and the various detects can't reach you. In any case summoners have misdirection and can use that on a flying summoned creature to keep themselves from being noticed.
Have you given any thought to the idea that you're not the only one trying to think outside the box? Instead of trying to build a character based on dominating a bunch of barbarians why not make a more rounded character. The problem with making a caster with fly and invisibility is what happens if you face another spell caster with dispel magic? I think making a ranged attacker would be a good idea in this situation try on a human fighter archer your choice to use the archer archetype or not ...
Fighter 1: Weapon Focus, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot Fighter 2: Rapid Shot Fighter 3: Deadly Aim Fighter 4: Weapon Specialization fighter 5: dodge
Shoot, retreat, and repeat. Kite them to their death, and if anyone else decides to pick up fly thinking they would face nothing but melee you can just as easily shoot up
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Dispel magic is great if he knows where to target. Ranged is great if he knows where to target. Combine misdirection with invisibility and you should be fine.
If the other guy is trying to attack you with spells he becomes visible and your beasties can eat him up. With summon monster you can fight on the ground, in the air and even under the ground. You just have to make yourself hard to hit.
Fighter 1: Weapon Focus, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot Fighter 2: Rapid Shot Fighter 3: Deadly Aim Fighter 4: Weapon Specialization fighter 5: dodge
Shoot, retreat, and repeat. Kite them to their death, and if anyone else decides to pick up fly thinking they would face nothing but melee you can just as easily shoot up
How does this character spot an invisible enemy?
EDIT: Ninja'ed. Back in the day, I used to participate in the Core Coliseum on the Wizards of the Coast boards. From experience, spellcasting is a huge advantage in terms of offense (save-or-dies), defense (invisibility, mirror image, etc.) and mobility (flight, earth glide, etc.). Having a pet is another big advantage.
2 consumables right? Could an item that allows see invisibility be one of them? Im not saying its a perfect build im saying building a character based on the idea you are facing nothing but barbarians is mistake number 1. Mistake number 2 is relying on summons to do your dirty work for you. Summons last 1 round per level so a dedicated casters summon is still only out for 5 rounds. What happens when they out live your level 3 summon and easily wipe out all your first level summons? Are you suggesting that one third level summon monster and a couple lower level monsters are going to wipe out a 5th level dedicated melee opponent, much less 6? I know this is an all out brawl but if you start bringing in back up my immediate reaction is going to be to stop fighting my current opponent and kill off the new threat. Do you believe anyone will just allow you to sit out the fight throwing in fodder while everyone else is killing each other?
I can promise you a few things:
1. There will be teaming up
2. If you're not damaged and everyone else is, they will be teaming up on you
3. If you're the only caster amongst a group of melee you will be the first to go
Don't make the mistake of thinking everyone else is gonna be dumb fighter guy, they're going to prepare themselves for more than just one type of opponent just like you should.
The archer may not beable to see invisibility but he's not going to run out of spells and be an invisible flying duck either. And if you are facing 5 barbarians you can bet that once you're out of summons if you're lucky and they fight each other first and save you for last, the last one may be low on health but he will still be more prepared to fight a caster with no spells than you will be to fight him
Yah, if i were in on this (and had decided to play a barbarian), you can bet it'd be a dwarven barbarian with whatever that feat is that boosts his arcane saves (and does Superstition rage power stack with that?). And you can bet I'd have a back-up bow/arrow with a high pull.
So, sure, you'll have some tricks to pull on me, but it won' be as easy as the mages in here make it sound.
Just things to think about. The bard option sounded interesting.
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The summoner would not be relying on saves but attacks from his summoned creatures. So your saves can be all +20 and that does not affect the summoner's strategy.
The weakness in the strategy is that your summoned creatures will not be as strong as the PCs but hopefully you can summon enough to make up for it.
A halfing paladin at level 5 can have a 30+ AC with wealth by level. Your saves will be twice as good as everyone else. You will not do very much damage but you will win by attrition. You will also have Lay on hands and a few spells. I played a halfing paladin in a PVP match not that long ago and he whooped everyone. I would recommend a potion of grease for yourself to give you a +10 on your CMD vs. grapple.
Have you given any thought to the idea that you're not the only one trying to think outside the box? Instead of trying to build a character based on dominating a bunch of barbarians why not make a more rounded character. The problem with making a caster with fly and invisibility is what happens if you face another spell caster with dispel magic? I think making a ranged attacker would be a good idea in this situation try on a human fighter archer your choice to use the archer archetype or not ...
Fighter 1: Weapon Focus, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot Fighter 2: Rapid Shot Fighter 3: Deadly Aim Fighter 4: Weapon Specialization fighter 5: dodge
Shoot, retreat, and repeat. Kite them to their death, and if anyone else decides to pick up fly thinking they would face nothing but melee you can just as easily shoot up
I thought of this first. Maximum damage I could get out is 1d8+10 x2 a round.
A Barbarian will be up on you in 2 rounds maximum...
Also, Summoners are not allowed. Forgot to mention.
Also, Summoners are not allowed. Forgot to mention.
The class is not allowed, or the spells Summon Monster/Summon Nature's Ally aren't allowed, or both?
Dwarf Inquisitor (Witch Hunter+Preacher)
Quite many good domains, but I would probably pick Love or Liberation
Very good defenses, good attack & ability to cast Invisiblity. Also Judgement is basically on the whole time.
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Fine, no summoners.
Maybe a cleric with travel so he can move quickly and still fly. You can still summon creatures. You could be neutral and worship and evil god so you can make your channel hurt everyone. Take Alignment channel and summon a bunch of evil creatures so you can channel heal them. If you have trickery you can be invisible and still do this.
You can also channel to just hurt everyone in range though I don't recommend that.
Dwarf Inquisitor (Witch Hunter+Preacher)
Quite many good domains, but I would probably pick Love or LiberationVery good defenses, good attack & ability to cast Invisiblity. Also Judgement is basically on the whole time.
I second this build, all in favor say I...
Is there some flavor of flying-mount-riding druid that could be effective? Decent control spells, some heals (if necessary), and some built-in avoidance?
At the very least it could be unique. Not sure how universally-powerful it could be.
Inquisitor with the animal (feather) domain and Boon Companion at 5? The animal companion gives you a way to use your teamwork feats, you only need one judgment, and the players' races will be very easy to guess. Super-low knowledge check.
Ooooohhhh... that could be nice. I like that.
That is one reason why I suggested fly or levitate so you could be further than 60 feet and the various detects can't reach you. In any case summoners have misdirection and can use that on a flying summoned creature to keep themselves from being noticed.
I think whether or not prep time is allowed has a very large impact on your strategy, but it's not that bad.
I would agree that if I had to choose one class to go into a battle royale against 5 unknowns at level 5, I would probably pick Summoner - they just carry so much versatility. However, they've been said to be disallowed, so that point is moot for this thread.
The Inquisitor and Paladin are both good suggestions.
Do you know if the players at the table are going to be given knowledge of their opponents (in or out of character) prior to combat? You might want to be interested in some deception.
What Level 5, against Barbarians?
I´d say Master of Many Styles with Crane Style,Crane Wing and Crane Riposte.
Oracle of Heavens - Color Spray gogogo.
One tactic I've had success with: Invisibility + Hide from Animals + Summon Swarm (bat swarm).
The bat swarm can detect invisible enemies (except you, if you have Hide from Animals up), doesn't need to make attack rolls and is immune to weapon attacks.
Iced2k -- how did the arena fight go?
Only me and another player built up character.
He went Cleric, first round meld into stone, 6 rounds of buffs.
I went for the color spray specialist.
As soon as he said it, I was like f+&% off, such a weak effort. And we decided it would have been a 50/50.
We did have a Kingmaker campaign to play through, and three other players who hadn't made arena chars.
We'll do it another time, but I really think hiding and buffing is such a pussy move.
We'll do it another time, but I really think hiding and buffing is such a pussy move.
There are old heroes and there are bold heroes...
I like your friend's style. :-)