Lantern Archons: Backbone of the Demonic Horde

[OldManAlexi]

Some of the more powerful fiends have regeneration that can only be bypassed by good. Thus, the higher ranking demons and devils would be completely incapable of killing each other. Thus, the logical course of action would be to have their magic users summon lantern archons to get rid of their enemies' regeneration.

This whole idea sounds ridiculous. Please tell me there is a better way for them to do this.

[Take Boat]

Magic items that have special language that suppress regeneration, just like a Lantern Archon has special language that bypasses all DR.

Like maybe THE SPEAR OF TRUE DEATH!

I don't think such an item is in the rules, but that would be a good name.

[EvilMinion]

Wasn't there a specific rule about creatures with DR being able to bypass other creatures with the same DR?

so the werewolves and pit fiends of the world could beat on each other.

Perhaps that was 3.5 thing

[Eric Clingenpeel]

Actually, the alignment DR doesn't follow that. I thought the same thing and looked it up. Now its only DR X/Magic that follows that rule. For alignment if a creature has an alignment subtype, their natural weapons bypass DR of those alignments.

[Fire Mountain Games]

I think the RAW works well enough for most typical games of good versus evil.

However, the rules get a little ridiculous in a game that features evil fighting evil as a prominent plot point. Just as an example, imps can't hurt each other without rolling a critical hit.

Their attacks do at most 4 points of damage (less than their DR) and they are immune to poison.

In an evil vs. evil game the house rule that like DRs cancel is probably a good one.

So, if two monsters with DR 5/good fight, then simply ignore both DRs.

If a devil with DR 10/good fights a demon with DR 5/good then the superior devil has his DR lowered to 5 and the demon has no DR against that particular opponent.

If nothing else, this house rule will speed up fights.

Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games

[spalding]

Specific types of monsters bypass certain alignments natural as a function of their subtypes, see specifically devil and demon.

This is of limited use in many cases of course. Alignment subtypes play on this as well.

[OldManAlexi]

There are ways for a demon to bypass a devil's DR (or vice versa). The real problem is regeneration. If a demon has regeneration (good) and a devil reduces it to -200HP, it is still alive. This demon can only be killed by holy weapons, weapons wielded by outsiders with the good subtype, and certain spells that can only be cast by good clerics. In 3.5, there was a mechanic through which you could kill regenerated creatures that you had rendered unconscious. However, it doesn't seem to exist in Pathfinder so a demon with regeneration (good) and a devil with regeneration (good) would be completely incapable of killing each other.

[Neo2151]

Alignment DRs are weird and clunky and there's really no way around that.
Just look at a Paladin: "You mean the DR I get doesn't even work on the types of creatures I'm expected to be fighting at that level, because they all overcome it naturally?" /facepalm
But you can't just swap the alignment, because even though that fixes a problem, it creates one too: "So only goodly, positive energy can hurt my goodly, positive Paladin? How does that make sense again?" /moar facepalms!

[Liam Warner]

Personally I've always thought it was part of the reason that the hells are so violent. Since a huge number of the denizens are evil and depending on location chaotic they enjoy fighting. Since they can usually hit equivilent CR critters with all their might and not hurt them it means they spend their time playing with actions most would consider homicidal. In wars they usually relly on the powerhouses to do enough damage to overcome the resistances of various enemies.

[Staffan Johansson]

OldManAlexi wrote:

This whole idea sounds ridiculous. Please tell me there is a better way for them to do this.

I think the best way of fixing it would be to change all devils that have DR X/good to DR X/good or chaotic, and demons would instead get DR X/good or lawful. Their same goes for their regeneration. You could fix celestials up with similar changes as well.

[Thalin]

Well, devils/demons just do enough damage to generally bypass DR 5/10; they just hit hard. Yes, if you can trick a non-evil minion into summoning lantern archons for this purpose, it's a good idea. There again, those lanterns are soft, squishy, and you DO bypass their DR.

[Alienfreak]

Staffan Johansson wrote:

OldManAlexi wrote:

This whole idea sounds ridiculous. Please tell me there is a better way for them to do this.

I think the best way of fixing it would be to change all devils that have DR X/good to DR X/good or chaotic, and demons would instead get DR X/good or lawful. Their same goes for their regeneration. You could fix celestials up with similar changes as well.

DRs/Regeneration and such are only "minor" issue because they can be circumvented with scrolls or just better enhanced weaponry.

Scroll of Align Weapon works against everything
Potion of Bless Weapon works against everything
Enhanced weapons break DR

.
.
.

But still... yeah. That issue came up with 3.x (most of them at least some are older) and always maked the Blood Wars make look... WEIRD. HUUUUGE armies clashing and noone can hurt anyone. That was always a good lulz in the RPG groups...

Creatures with the same DR/Regneration should be able to breach the others.

[Staffan Johansson]

Alienfreak wrote:

Creatures with the same DR/Regneration should be able to breach the others.

Don't really agree there, but that's a matter of how I see DR/regeneration.

Basically, I see greater devils (and demons and so on) as being really, really tough. On top of their AC and hit points, they have damage reduction that lets them completely shrug off lesser attacks, and the attacks that do manage to hurt them heal in a matter of seconds to minutes. They're just that tough.

Unless, of course, you happen to be toting a silver (cold iron for demons) weapon infused with the power of Good. That slices through them and burns them with holy flames, leaving them crying for mommy. The claws of another devil don't have the same oomph behind them, so they don't hurt them in the same way. If a devil wants to really put a hurting on another devil, he's going to have to get tricky, just bashing his head in isn't going to help much other than temporarily inconveniencing the other guy.

Celestials have a similar level of toughness they get from their purity (except their wounds don't close on their own, but their command of holy magic generally suffices to fix it for them) - but when faced with the corrupting touch of pure evil, their resistance to injury fades away, leaving horrible corrupted wounds.

Sure, some might argue that celestials (and paladins, for that matter) should get DR X/non-evil instead. But that's missing the point. Even though they are vulnerable to evil, they go out and fight it anyway. That's how bad-ass they are. And it's not as if they don't bring plenty of stuff to bear against their foes, what with Smite Evil and whatnot. But the inherent toughness that comes from being infused with the power of the planes of Good - that's vulnerable to Evil, just like the opposite is true.

[Alienfreak]

Staffan Johansson wrote:

Alienfreak wrote:

Creatures with the same DR/Regneration should be able to breach the others.

Don't really agree there, but that's a matter of how I see DR/regeneration.

Basically, I see greater devils (and demons and so on) as being really, really tough. On top of their AC and hit points, they have damage reduction that lets them completely shrug off lesser attacks, and the attacks that do manage to hurt them heal in a matter of seconds to minutes. They're just that tough.

Unless, of course, you happen to be toting a silver (cold iron for demons) weapon infused with the power of Good. That slices through them and burns them with holy flames, leaving them crying for mommy. The claws of another devil don't have the same oomph behind them, so they don't hurt them in the same way. If a devil wants to really put a hurting on another devil, he's going to have to get tricky, just bashing his head in isn't going to help much other than temporarily inconveniencing the other guy.

Celestials have a similar level of toughness they get from their purity (except their wounds don't close on their own, but their command of holy magic generally suffices to fix it for them) - but when faced with the corrupting touch of pure evil, their resistance to injury fades away, leaving horrible corrupted wounds.

Sure, some might argue that celestials (and paladins, for that matter) should get DR X/non-evil instead. But that's missing the point. Even though they are vulnerable to evil, they go out and fight it anyway. That's how bad-ass they are. And it's not as if they don't bring plenty of stuff to bear against their foes, what with Smite Evil and whatnot. But the inherent toughness that comes from being infused with the power of the planes of Good - that's vulnerable to Evil, just like the opposite is true.

So how does the Blood War work?

They all just go there for the giggles?

I mean you got armies of millions of devils and demons battling each other. And nobody ever drops because nobody can wound anyone?
That "ZOMG THEY HAZ TO BE TRICKY" approach is all nice and sound if you see outsiders that way. But especially Demons kill each other more than regularly. Its part of their evolutionary process to have open struggles within their race. And you really can't tell me that every Babau out there runs around with Potions of Bless Weapon just to be able to assassinate other Demons. Thats dumb.

[Lathiira]

I'd probably rule that demons and devils can partially negate DR based on material. Maybe that pit fiend can't bypass DR/cold iron and good, but instead of losing 15 pts. per swing, it is powerful enough to bypass the cold iron part. This lets it swat lesser demons with impunity. Against those more powerful demons, like that balor, give it the equivalent of Penetrating Strike or Greater Penetrating Strike. Sure, the damage it does goes down, but it can now hurt the balor. It'll also need help against the regeneration, but hey, it's an uber-genius, it'll think of something. In the meantime, when the balor and pit fiend slug it out, it'll now be an unholy debacle that massacres hordes of weaker fiends as these two titans pound away at each other.

[Liam Warner]

Alienfreak wrote:

So how does the Blood War work?

They all just go there for the giggles?

I mean you got armies of millions of devils and demons battling each other. And nobody ever drops because nobody can wound anyone?
That "ZOMG THEY HAZ TO BE TRICKY" approach is all nice and sound if you see outsiders that way. But especially Demons kill each other more than regularly. Its part of their evolutionary process to have open struggles within their race. And you really can't tell me that every Babau out there runs around with Potions of Bless Weapon just to be able to assassinate other Demons. Thats dumb.

A few things to bear in mind

1) The average forces in the blood war are going to have DR 5 which isn't that hard to overcome particularly since most warrior demons/devils are able to do more than that in damage.

2) From what I recall most demons/devils are DR/X vs good OR silver/cold iron (depending on which one you have) so your average quasit with a silver dagger could hurt a horned or beared devil. It'd be stomped into the ground immediately afterwards but it could hurt them.

3) You also have various spells and spell like abilities that could bypass the DR that different demons and devils have access too.

4) Similarly you have siege weaponary and who know's what else being deployed onto the battlefield.

I figure your armies of hell/abyss (and can I just say none of the given demons/devils seem suitable for run of the mill troops their either non-combat, generals, elite troops, spies or some other specialized role) in the blood war are generally issued weapons treated either with cold iron or silver so they can harm their foes. A quasit does d3-1 with its claws or d4-1 with its bite. Not that threatening to a bearded devil but 20-30 quasits who've had their claws and fangs silvered either with actual/alchemical silver or spells? Now that's a different matter. If they are working for a Vrock that attacks with its claws 2d6 +5 they make a nice distraction while it hammers the bearded devil for 2d6 damage per attack. At which point a huge boulder slams down on the lot fired from a Trebuchet and dealing 6d6 damage to them all.

Consider the following scenario . . .

A demon patrol of 4 Vrocks runs into a devil squad of 10 horned devils.
The Vrocks have DR 10 Good and can do 2d6+5, 1d8+5 or 1d6+5 depending on their attack option.
The Devils have DR 5 good or silver and do 1d10+6+Infernal Wound or 1d6+4 depending on their attack option.

Whatever the Vrocks do they can injure the devils but the devils using their halberd will do damage reasonably often as well 2d6 vs 1d10-4. If the numbers are even the Vrocks win but if the horned devils have more numbers It could go either way and these are the closest I can find for the standard troops fighting in the bloodwar. If you've got the big guns Balors, Pit fiends etc involved the lower ranked creatures are going to get hammered big time.

[Staffan Johansson]

Alienfreak wrote:

So how does the Blood War work?

They all just go there for the giggles?

Note that I also suggested in an earlier post that all instances of "good" in the description of devils and their weaknesses ought to be changed to "good or chaotic", with a similar thing happening to the demons. So the axiomatic nature of the armies of hell is just as inimical to the hordes of the Abyss as the holy nature of the hosts of heaven.

It would still mean that demons have trouble hurting one another, but I'm OK with that :)

[Set]

Staffan Johansson wrote:

Note that I also suggested in an earlier post that all instances of "good" in the description of devils and their weaknesses ought to be changed to "good or chaotic", with a similar thing happening to the demons.

I try to do something like that whenever I am designing new devils or demons for whatever reason, since it makes sense to me that a chaotic attack would be as antithetical to a creature of evil *and law* like a devil as a good attack would be.

Demons and devils, having the [chaos] and [law] subtypes automatically treat their natural attacks as chaotic or lawful (in addition to evil), so it only makes sense that, in addition to having a vulnerability to [good] attacks, they would also have vulnerability to [chaos] effects, in the case of devils, and [law] effects, in the case of demons and qlippoth.

Tying it into the alignment subtype, as with all [good] subtype creatures counting natural attacks for the purpose of bypassing DR, would also allow that information to be removed from the statblock of every single creature with an alignment subtype, as it would be assumed.

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

Con damage?
Negative Levels?
Disintegrate?
Death effects
If you eat a creature faster than it regenerates, I say you win, regardless of what the rules say.

[Aelryinth]

Note that in 3E many of the lower planar greater fiends had Align Weapon, presumably for the purpose of bypassing DR and regeneration of their foes.

Ergo, it wasn't a problem. Align the weapon of one of your minions, go around and coup the dead.

Note also that regeneration doesn't stop you from being suffocated, or prevent ability damage from killing you. Plenty of life suckers in the lower planes.

==Aelryinth