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So I've seen a few different threads about Crane style and how people thinks its broken. At the very least, its very good. And cool. Which is where I'm going with this. What other styles do you like/think are strong/think are cool?
Snake style is also very good, first and foremost the third feat in the chain, which gives you an AoO for every attack that misses you.
I also like Dragon Style for raw damage.
Panther style would also be OK, but Snake Style does everything it does only better.
I think that Snake Style is almost too good... When someone attempts to hit you with an attack and you are aware, you roll your Sense Motive and that value is your AC (or Touch AC as the case may be). Now it is an immediate action so you only get one per turn, like a swift action.
I have a friend that plays a monk and he has pumped up his Sense Motive check with Skill Focus, a high wisdom, and it being a class skill. He regularly gets ACs in the high 20s/early 30s at level 4. I do not have his character sheet on me at the moment but I do know he has an 18 Wisdom, four skill ranks (we are level 4), class skill, skill focus, and the +2 from Snake Style. That essentially gives him a +16 as his Sense Motive check and even when he rolls a one, that's 17 AC. Granted, if he is flat-footed or affected by a save spell, then he's a bit hosed. But I can understand the GM's frustration sometimes when his monsters just cannot hit this monk nine times out of ten. Perhaps we are missing something?
I think that Snake Style is almost too good... When someone attempts to hit you with an attack and you are aware, you roll your Sense Motive and that value is your AC (or Touch AC as the case may be). Now it is an immediate action so you only get one per turn, like a swift action.
I have a friend that plays a monk and he has pumped up his Sense Motive check with Skill Focus, a high wisdom, and it being a class skill. He regularly gets ACs in the high 20s/early 30s at level 4. I do not have his character sheet on me at the moment but I do know he has an 18 Wisdom, four skill ranks (we are level 4), class skill, skill focus, and the +2 from Snake Style. That essentially gives him a +16 as his Sense Motive check and even when he rolls a one, that's 17 AC. Granted, if he is flat-footed or affected by a save spell, then he's a bit hosed. But I can understand the GM's frustration sometimes when his monsters just cannot hit this monk nine times out of ten. Perhaps we are missing something?
Well the monk using crane wing (accessible on lvl 5) does not even have to roll.
Well the monk using crane wing (accessible on lvl 5) does not even have to roll.I think that Snake Style is almost too good... When someone attempts to hit you with an attack and you are aware, you roll your Sense Motive and that value is your AC (or Touch AC as the case may be). Now it is an immediate action so you only get one per turn, like a swift action.
I have a friend that plays a monk and he has pumped up his Sense Motive check with Skill Focus, a high wisdom, and it being a class skill. He regularly gets ACs in the high 20s/early 30s at level 4. I do not have his character sheet on me at the moment but I do know he has an 18 Wisdom, four skill ranks (we are level 4), class skill, skill focus, and the +2 from Snake Style. That essentially gives him a +16 as his Sense Motive check and even when he rolls a one, that's 17 AC. Granted, if he is flat-footed or affected by a save spell, then he's a bit hosed. But I can understand the GM's frustration sometimes when his monsters just cannot hit this monk nine times out of ten. Perhaps we are missing something?
While that is true, that's usually only a bonus +3 to your AC (+2 for Fighting Defensively and +1 Dodge Bonus for the feat). Not knocking it at all, mind you, as it's pretty good. I just think that the Snake Style has a much better chance of getting higher results more often than not.
While that is true, that's usually only a bonus +3 to your AC (+2 for Fighting Defensively and +1 Dodge Bonus for the feat). Not knocking it at all, mind you, as it's pretty good. I just think that the Snake Style has a much better chance of getting higher results more often than not.
Its -1/+4 (since the penalty gets reduced again with the third feat, and three ranks in Acrobatics will give you another +1 bonus).
This however is not what I meant when I wrote "he does not have to roll". I meant:
Once per round while using Crane Style, when you have at least one hand free and are either fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you can deflect one melee weapon attack that would normally hit you. You expend no action to deflect the attack, but you must be aware of it and not flat-footed. An attack so deflected deals no damage to you.
Neat, huh?
Snake Fang is what makes Snake Style good, IMO. The base style feat is nigh worthless. You can easily keep your AC to what a typical sense motive roll would grant anyway. And the 2nd feat, Sidewind is awful. But free AoO everytime someone misses me? Heck yeah! Only problem is getting someone to try and focus his attacks on you... That and the fact that w/o MoMS archetype, you need at least 9 levels to get it...
A lot of the others are pretty good, but not on snake an crane's level. Boar Style in particular is a big damage boost at low levels, which is awesome. The rest of the style...not so much.
I felt that I should post some things worth noting about Crane Wing and Snake Style, that many people don't seem to grasp/notice/think about/post about:
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- You don't have to use Crane Wing until after a hit has been confirmed against you. With Snake Style you must declare as an immediate action once you are targeted, BEFORE you know if it will even hit or not, making it possible to waste the ability.
- Crane Wing AUTOMATICALLY negates a hit against you. Snake Style MIGHT negate a hit against you, provided your Sense Motive check is high enough.
- Crane Wing ONLY works on MELEE weapon attacks, whereas Snake Style works on melee AND ranged attacks (even spell attacks and natural attacks, which many GMs rule bypass Crane Wing).
- Both Crane Wing and Snake Style can be used to potentially negate TWO attacks against you in a round.
- Both Crane Wing and Snake Style can be used to potentially negate TWO attacks against you in a round.
I do not see it. Enlighten me?
I do not see it. Enlighten me?
- Both Crane Wing and Snake Style can be used to potentially negate TWO attacks against you in a round.
It's unlikely but it is possible. To use Snake Style requires an immediate action. Rules on immediate actions state:
Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn
So if an opponent somehow managed to attack you when it was your turn, you could use Snake Style for your AC as an immediate action. Because you used it on your turn, you could again use Snake Style for your AC as an immediate action after your turn but still in the same round.
It's easy. You choose to fight defensively on your turn. Than, when it isn't your turn, if you get hit by an attack, you negate it with Crane Wing. You get attacked again, you use your immediate action to use Snake Style to boost your AC and cause it to miss.
It's easy. You choose to fight defensively on your turn. Than, when it isn't your turn, if you get hit by an attack, you negate it with Crane Wing. You get attacked again, you use your immediate action to use Snake Style to boost your AC and cause it to miss.
Thats not what you wrote.
- Both Crane Wing and Snake Style can be used to potentially negate TWO attacks against you in a round.
That means that you can either use the one or the other style to negate two attacks.
You should have written:
- Crane Wing and Snake Style can be used together in a single round to potentially negate TWO attacks against you.
EDIT:
Which by the way does not work anyway. Switching into snake style is a swift action, which means that you cannot use a immediate action to activate the snake style parry in the same round.
Hyla is correct. You can only have one style active. I think there is a monk archetype that allows you to have two styles up at once though.
IIRC it is Master of Many Styles.
IIRC it is Master of Many Styles.
Nice, I was not aware of that archetype.
Hyla is correct. You can only have one style active. I think there is a monk archetype that allows you to have two styles up at once though.
IIRC it is Master of Many Styles.
Why would we even be discussing multiple styles if not in the context of said archetype?
Why not? I saw this as a general discussion on the "style feats" not a discussion on that archetype.
Why not? I saw this as a general discussion on the "style feats" not a discussion on that archetype.
+1
You can also deflect a ranged attack with deflect arrows. My monk for the Savage Tide game had it. Buuuuut...
He not once used it for the whole game. Way too few arrows/bolts/bullets flying in that AP. Crane style was quite handy, though. Deflected a critical threat from the BBEG that was the only time he was close to hitting me. My AC was quite high, too.
That said, getting all sorts of attacks on you deflected tells the enemies to target your friends. Which is why you take Bodyguard and In Harm's Way, too.
I guess my level of thinking is too far ahead of some. :P
(Just kidding.)
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What other styles do you like/think are strong/think are cool?
I quite like Snake Style just by itself with a reach trip build. As a half elf, pick the Maneuver Master monk archetype and get Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes at 1st level along with exotic proficiency double chained kama. This is a reach weapon so you are tripping enemies with AoO when they get within 10 feet of you.
At second level you can also pick up Improved Dirty Trick as a bonus feat allowing you to blind your opponents as well as tripping them. The maneuver master is particularly nasty as it allows you a bonus CMB attempt against your opponents even after you've done your full attack. It's also useful as an archetype because you don't need Combat Expertise to pick up these bonus CMB feats such as Improved Trip.
At 3rd level you choose Snake Style and you can get a decent AC for when the enemy finally manages to get past your reach only for you to use your high Snake Style AC to stop them from hitting. The double chained kama also allows you to fight close in unlike most reach weapons.
I call this build 'the blinding serpent' and it is a great battlefield control build.
Snake, panther style are very good. Also snapping turtle in some case. If you are a unarmed fighter archetype, or with a master of many style monk (you dodge with crane or snake style then grab).
Combat Style Master would also let you use crane and snake in the same round.
(However, fighting defensively wouldn't "turn off", so you suddenly be taking big penalties to hit...)
Yeah, big like -1, the smallest possible penalty... ;)
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I like monkey style for archers, being able to drop prone for the +4 on AC versus ranged attacks and not have to deal with any of the negative consequences of being prone is pretty nice. The only downside is you have to burn a swift action to stand up and fire. This can work even better if you are adjacent to half cover and can drop behind it for full cover. It also makes you effectively immune to trip builds.