DC 50--Doable, Right? Right?

[Emmit Svenson]

My party entered and was driven away from a ruin; we plan to return once we’ve finished a few tasks and have leveled up to 7th.

While we were there, we found a open stone wall safe with a metal box inside. We had no chance to open the box: the disable device DC was given as 50. In a move that seemed to make sense at the time, we put it back in the safe and closed it--the safe also needs a disable device of 50 to open. We have reason to believe both box and safe are effectively indestructable, and the keys to both forever lost.

Can you help us come up with a combination of stacking buffs that will allow us to take 20 to open these locks at level 7? Our DM will probably cap us at one or two people aiding the action. We’ll have time to buy or craft a few level-appropriate magic items, and have access to most spells and class features via an insanely large stable of PCs (only 5 or 6 characters will go, but we can choose from a pretty large variety of characters). The primary lockpicker will most likely have an unbuffed disable device of +14. Alternately, the same character could UMD a pair of knock scrolls, but I believe that rules out taking 20.

Thanks in advance for your help.

[Tels]

I'd suggest asking your GM if you could combine the rogues disable device, plus the spell knock together to open the lock.

[DeathQuaker]

Are you near a town?

Hire an expert to do it.

Or if it's truly safe and indestructable, wait until you get more experienced. After all, if it's DC 50, it might contain something a level 7 party really can't handle.

But if you otherwise want help determining what buff modifiers you can add to your party lockpicker, you're going to need to tell us your party build, as well as the key stats of your lockpicker.

[Charlie Bell]

3000-ish gp buys you an adamantine weapon that will cut through that metal safe like butter.

Otherwise, you can use:
heroism or good hope +2 morale bonus to skills
masterwork thieves tools +2 circumstance bonus
cat's grace +4 enhancement bonus to Dex = +2 bonus to Disable Device
alter self +2 size bonus to Dex = +1 bonus to Disable Device
2x Aid Another +4 bonus
total of +11

take 20 +14 unbuffed +11 with those buffs = 45

gallant inspiration +2d4 competence bonus

Roll higher than 5 with gallant inspiration and you've done it.

Vest of escape gives you a +4 competence bonus on Disable Device, but that doesn't stack with gallant inspiration and you'd still need another stacking +1 from somewhere. There may be something that gives you an insight bonus on skill checks.

[SlimGauge]

Do you have a Diviner for Diviner's Fortune or a Bard for Inspire Competence ?

[Drothmal]

If you have access to a summoner, use the level up to make a super-pick lock focused Eidolon

Quick number crunch (ideal, probably some of these will not apply)

Small serpentine Eidolon

20 (take 20) + 6 (22 DEX unbuffed if you use the lvl 4 ability point on dex) + 8 racial (skilled evolution) + 2 (+4 Dex from Ability increase evolution) + 2 (+4 dex from Cat's Grace or other enhancement bonus) + 9 (make disable device a class skill and put full ranks into the skill for a 3+6)

If my calculations are correct, that give you 47

Aid another for +4
Guidance (lvl 0 cantrip) for +1
MW tools for +2
Alter self (I think this gives you a further +2 Dex) +1
If you use shrink person (the opposite of enlarge), you can probably get even more DEX
Skill Focus feat for a +3
Other suggestions above

If you play with words of power, there is a level 2 spell that allows you to burn the spell for +8 enhancement bonus. You cannot take 20 if you do this, but if time is not an issue and you can prepare enough scrolls/make someone take the feat that allows for some access to WoP, you can try enough times until you actually roll that 20

So yeah, it is possible... But I agree that you should be careful with handling treasure/items/enemies that come from a skill DC so above your level

[archmagi1]

Solution:
1 Rogue 7 with 16 DEX, with ~ +16 to Disable Device
MW Thieves Tools +2 Circumstance
Goggle of Minute Seeing +5 Competence
Prayer +1 Luck
Greater Heroism coupled with Moment of Greatness +8 Morale
Cat's Grace +2 Enhancement

That gives you a +34, and a 20% chance to hit it. If you can't come up with an 11th level wizard to hire to cast Greater Heroism, that puts us back to 30 with regular heroism.

There are a couple of other ways to increase that number, but are probably unavailable unless your character took them.

Skill Focus (Disable Device) +3 Untyped
Deft Hands +2 Untyped
Nimble Fingers, Keen Minds (Religion Trait) +1 Trait
Master Tinker (Alt Gnome Racial Ability) +1 Racial

That brings you to a possible +41/37, giving you a 55% chance with greater heroism or a 35% with regular heroism.

Then there's things like Stone Shape and even disintegrate which could punch through the outer safe.

[Christopher Rowe 151]

7 Ranks
3 Class Skill
4 Ability Modifier (Assumption on my part if not can be increased w/ cat's grace / gloves)
2 Circumstance Bonus (MW Tools)
5 Competence Bonus (Wondrous Item)
4 Aid Another x 2
3 Skill Focus (Taken @ 7 if not already)
2 Morale Bonus: Heroism Spell

=30 + take 20 = 50 good to go.

[Drothmal]

archmagi1 wrote:

Solution:

1 Rogue 7 with 16 DEX, with ~ +16 to Disable Device

Care to elaborate?

7 (ranks) + 3 (Class Skill) + 3 (Dex) = +13

[archmagi1]

Trapfinding gives you 1/2 rogue level to disable device

PRD wrote:

Trapfinding: A rogue adds 1/2 her level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.

[Drothmal]

Christopher Rowe 151 wrote:

7 Ranks

3 Class Skill
4 Ability Modifier (Assumption on my part)
2 Circumstance Bonus (MW Tools)
5 Competence Bonus (Wondrous Item)
4 Aid Another x 2
3 Skill Focus (Taken @ 7 if not already)
2 Morale Bonus: Heroism Spell

=30 + take 20 = 50 good to go.

Just curious, but what would be the price for the competence bonus item?

[Drothmal]

archmagi1 wrote:

Trapfinding gives you 1/2 rogue level to disable device

PRD wrote:

Trapfinding: A rogue adds 1/2 her level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.

Fair enough

[Emmit Svenson]

Thanks for the help so far!

I’m pretty sure indestructable means indestructable, so the adamantite drill can’t be our only plan. Looking into hiring an expert is a good notion--and, of course, the buffs we’re discussing could be used on the expert.

No diviner, rats! That would be a good source of an insight bonus. Any other insight options out there?

We do have a bard, for an expected +3 morale bonus. I can swap that in to Charlie’s proposed buffs instead of Heroism/Good Hope, and Goggles of Minute Seeing instead of the Vest of Escape or Gallant Inspiration for +5 competence. Alter Self is personal, so we’d need a potion or scroll...how about Reduce Person for the size bonus to dex, stacking with Cat’s Grace.

That’s a 51 on a take twenty! Looking good so far!

But here’s a concern: Reduce Person and Cat’s Grace have durations in minutes per level. Will seven minutes be enough for a take twenty on disable device?

[Christopher Rowe 151]

Should be 2500 unless you make it at which point it is 1250. (It's still half for magic item creation, right?) I said +5 because it requires a 4 caster level to get +5 or a 9 caster level (I think to get up to +10 and at level 7 it seems that +5 was the best they could make themselves)

[ShadowcatX]

Drothmal wrote:

archmagi1 wrote:

Solution:

1 Rogue 7 with 16 DEX, with ~ +16 to Disable Device

Care to elaborate?

7 (ranks) + 3 (Class Skill) + 3 (Dex) = +13

+3 for trap finding.

Edit: ninja'd

[archmagi1]

Drothmal wrote:

Christopher Rowe 151 wrote:

7 Ranks

3 Class Skill
4 Ability Modifier (Assumption on my part)
2 Circumstance Bonus (MW Tools)
5 Competence Bonus (Wondrous Item)
4 Aid Another x 2
3 Skill Focus (Taken @ 7 if not already)
2 Morale Bonus: Heroism Spell

=30 + take 20 = 50 good to go.

Just curious, but what would be the price for the competence bonus item?

Goggles of Minute Seeing is 2500, gives +5 Competence bonus, and follows the Bonus squared * 100 for Competence bonuses.

(NOTE: my above calculation mentioned Eyes of the Eagle, should be Goggles of Minute Seeing)

[archmagi1]

Emmit Svenson wrote:

We do have a bard, for an expected +3 morale bonus.

Just a note that the Bard's Inspire Competence ability doesn't give a morale bonus (it gives Competence).

[Christopher Rowe 151]

The only spell in my example is Heroism which is 10 min / level or 70 minutes that should get you there with time to spare (I love rhymes...) As for the wonderous item, I priced it from the item crafting rules but I didn't see that Goggles of Minute seeing granted a +5 for Disable device so there you go.

[Emmit Svenson]

Wow, you guys are fast! 4-5 posts while I was typing my last one.

Moment of Greatness to double the inspire competence bonus is solid, thanks, as is the luck bonus from Prayer...but again, short spell durations.

Goggles of Minute Seeing are 1,250 to craft, which we can swing easily.

[Christopher Rowe 151]

I didn't assume trapfinding because not every class gets it. I didn't know it was a rogue so that will save you the feat at 7th (skill focus) which is great because I would hate to take a feat for a one time thing...

[Christopher Rowe 151]

So updated it would look like this:

7 Ranks
3 Class Skill
4 Ability Modifier (Assumption on my part if not can be increased w/ cat's grace / gloves)
3 Trapfinding
2 Circumstance Bonus (MW Tools)
5 Competence Bonus (Goggles)
4 Aid Another x 2
2 Morale Bonus: Heroism Spell (70 minutes)

=30 + take 20 = 50 good to go.

[Charlie Bell]

Drothmal wrote:

Just curious, but what would be the price for the competence bonus item?

Goggles of minute seeing. 2500 gp; 1250 if you make it yourself.

That would also replace gallant inspiration for the +5 competence bonus in my suggestion above.

Also, revelation can give you a pretty hefty insight bonus which will stack will all the others I already mentioned, but it's personal range, so a rogue would have to use it from a potion or scroll with UMD.

[meabolex]

7th level rogue:

Ranks: +7 untyped
Trained: +3 untyped
Trapfinding (applies to all disable device checks): +3 untyped
Modifier: (Assuming 17 base + 2 racial + 1 level): +5 untyped
MW Tools: +2 circumstance
(cheap, 2500gp) Goggles of Minute Seeing: +5 competence
scrolls of the following, cast in this order:
heroism (CL 5 -> 375gp) +2 morale
cat's grace (CL 3 -> 150gp) +2 Dex enhancement
reduce person (CL 3 -> 75gp) +1 Dex size
Take 20: +20

= 50, for only 3100gp (much less if you have access to these spells -- which you should -- and Craft Wondrous Item) and no feat tax.

[Irontruth]

Stone of Goodluck has a +1 luck bonus but it's pretty spendy.