Chartered Company: The Seventh Veil

Hmph, interesting.

Anyway, if one were interested in signing on to the Seventh Veil is it still applicable to make it known here first? Thanks in advance.

V'rel

V'rel: You can tell us here, or go directly to our forums and apply.

... gives me power over you...

Hollow words from a hollow man puffed up with boasts.

The only power you have demonstrated is the power to engage us in conversation.

Puffed up? I think not. Seeing me either puffed up or perplexed is a rare occurance.

What I have demonstrated is superior knowledge... and we all know what knowledge is.

What I have demonstrated is superior knowledge...

What you have done is make boastful claims.

Where is the Oracle proclaiming your words as wisdom? Where are the wise men who seek your counsel?

You demonstrate your own ignorance when you refuse to acknowledge it.

When have I stated that I am not ignorant? Ignorance applies to all knowledge. There are a great many things that I am ignorant about. If I had claimed to know everything about anything, then that would be a refusal of acknowledgement.

Where ignorance is concerned, let me enlighten you. I will do this using only the words "You tell me." All other words will be the words of you and members of your company.

Curiosity - You must have a spark of curiosity inside of you, seeking to learn the mysteries of Golarian, and share them not only with your fellow members, but with everyone.

Oh sounds fun!! You should apply to the Seventh Veil...

Bah, Obakararuir sounds like one who can get things...we procure knowledge, no questions asked. I expect we might end up one of his best customers, sounds like economic diplomacy to me.

Where are the wise men who seek your counsel?

You tell me.

I'm sure that once again I'm either using a different definition, refusing to acknowledge my ignorance, taking what was said out of context, or will you simply settle to say that I am wrong without providing anything of substance to justify your claim?

... or will you simply settle to say that I am wrong without providing anything of substance to justify your claim?

I have merely come to the conclusion that you are not a fit judge of the substance of my justifications.

The sun does not cut us off. It has neither power nor knowledge. If anything is cutting us off from the heat and light of the sun it is the earth as it is that body that rotates and it is that rotation that determines our day/night cycle, not the sun. It is fixed in the center of our solar system and always has been by definition. Some times a big ball of gas and heat is just a big ball of gas and heat. It has no power as your perception of power (keeping an entire solar system in check with gravity and producing massive amounts of heat and light) is skewed as you are simply enjoying the benefits of the laws of the universe in that a bunch of stuff under intense pressure eventually starts a fission reaction which is balanced by gravity with the result being a cohesive ball of fire until such time all the sun's fuel is spent. Astrophysics 101. Should the sun go away and the earth somehow be kept in tact, we have the knowledge to keep our planet going. We know how to produce light and heat and the only issue becomes a matter of scale.

Yes I know this, I was thinking of people in that time that might look at it differently then we do now. Witches float, that kind of misinformation I was going with.

The question then becomes degrees and perception of power as it is not absolute. Were that the case, the man with a million useless facts would be more powerful than the man with a single important fact. This is not the case. You can know how to style hair, make clothes, cook etc but if all I know is how to stop your heart then I have power over...

Man with a million useless facts finds someone who believes him, then he has the power over that person. I think these people are the ones who stand on boxes and shout out stuff at people and it attracts a few others who for some reason believe him, and this generates more people standing there and he has an army of fools.

I call them politicians.

Obakararuir wrote:

... or will you simply settle to say that I am wrong without providing anything of substance to justify your claim?

I have merely come to the conclusion that you are not a fit judge of the substance of my justifications.

That is the wisest thing you have said thus far. Nothing to do with culture, race, or creed. It simply is. I have no right to judge you... and the reverse is true as well.

Which is the very reason why I could have said whatever I wanted to and as long as I supported it with a relevent, reasonable rebutal you couldn't prove that I was wrong... and if you did, it didn't matter.

Now the real question... what differenciates varying standards of justification from ignorance?

In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. This does not make him powerful or knowledgeable. The next person to come along with more knowledge and capability can marginalize his entire kingdom. This is what I meant by degrees of power. There is no absolute top tier to power or knowledge. Whenever science has approach absolute barriers, something new pops up. Theoretically, at absolute zero all matter should just stop. However, when we approached absolute zero temperatures we actually encountered a new form of matter. The same is true with the speed of light. Einstein's theory of relativity says nothing can go faster than light. However, we know for fact the universe expanded faster than the speed of light at the big bang. It had to. Also, we've found a way to break this by manipulating waves (http://www.geek.com/articles/gadgets/faster-than-light-radio-waves-could-r evolutionize-computer-industries-20090630/ and http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120503194223.htm). I know we're talking about a game contextually but the abstract notions of power and knowledge are the same regardless of context.

In the rating scale of civilizations, we're level 0. Level 1 is a planet-based civilization, 2 is solar, 3 is galactic, 4 is universal. Recently, the concept of multiple universes has been taking more hold. This reveals a 5th level, transuniversal, or multiversal. I'm sure there is something beyond that and beyond that, etc.

To your point, can someone gain power through lack of knowledge? I would assert that they can't. Duping someone into believing superfluous drivel is knowledge of persuasion. Take a mind, clear it out. No knowledge whatsoever. All they can do is instinctively work with their body to pump blood, move, see, breath, etc. The moment they do something (pick up a rock, get frightened, etc) they gain knowledge. Whether or not they can connect bits together or not is a different matter but they gain a bit of power with that as well. "Hey, big things frighten me maybe they'll work on this other guy." and thus, politicians. So, they do contain actual, "useful" knowledge. However, it's born of personality and persuasion rather than altruism or deep secrets.

utilitarianism

I think people can gain power through lack of knowledge. They can stumble upon it, carry it with them, but never know they have the power because they lack the knowledge to understand what they hold; so it can stay on a shelf never to be used till someone with the knowledge sees it and makes use of it's power.

To your point, can someone gain power through lack of knowledge? I would assert that they can't.

Fire.

Once they make fire then they know how to do it again and they have gained knowledge. Through trial and error they can refine that knowledge to do it reliably.

Wow, thank you for all the new...free contributions all of you are making to our power...*cough*....I mean knowledge base. Many cracks in reality to be found here, which is exactly what we are looking for!

More illusions shall be brushed aside. *continues making notes to be sifted and tested later*

Nihimon wrote:

Obakararuir wrote:

... or will you simply settle to say that I am wrong without providing anything of substance to justify your claim?

I have merely come to the conclusion that you are not a fit judge of the substance of my justifications.

That is the wisest thing you have said thus far. Nothing to do with culture, race, or creed. It simply is. I have no right to judge you... and the reverse is true as well.

Which is the very reason why I could have said whatever I wanted to and as long as I supported it with a relevent, reasonable rebutal you couldn't prove that I was wrong... and if you did, it didn't matter.

Now the real question... what differenciates varying standards of justification from ignorance?

Oh, you certainly have the right to judge. What you lack is demonstrated ability to discriminate between what is meaningful and what is nonsense.

Oh, you certainly have the right to judge. What you lack is demonstrated ability to discriminate between what is meaningful and what is nonsense.

What authority grants me that right, if you claim that I do in fact have it?

Meaning is contextual. If you imply that meaningfulness is synonymous with importance, then what you claim is an absence of ability can almost always be attributed to cultural or ethical differences. A foreign tongue will sound like nonsense but that does not negate the meanings behind the sounds for those who comprehend them. Forencith realized this already, as has Nihimon. Perhaps you should ask them to enlighten you. After all isn't that what your company is all about? The sharing of knowledge?

DeciusBrutus wrote:

Oh, you certainly have the right to judge. What you lack is demonstrated ability to discriminate between what is meaningful and what is nonsense.

What authority grants me that right, if you claim that I do in fact have it?

You perceive. That is all the authority you need to judge what you perceive.

But you need wisdom to judge well.

I think I'm in love with you Obakararuir

And in the game, while you two are blathering on, talking past each other, someone will have hired an assassin to stab ya both to quiet you down. Crimeny, can we move on from the threadjack?

(OOC) Since we went onto a long IC segue here...I just wanted to get in a quick note to reiterate our real purpose when we are not doing forum combat.

The Seventh Veil is a philosophical organization founded in antiquity with the sole purpose of learning everything there is about Golarion. Our IC purpose is founded upon the shared belief that the world we see is layers of illusion. As with all illusions, the more evidence one can collect suggesting it is such, the easier it is to disbelief. We do not claim to be infallible scholars...in fact we encourage variety in perspective and focus, never knowing which might produce best results. We are scholars, but also warriors...and crafters, explorers, and philosophers. We have a unique structure which allows those who do decide to focus on a singular interest to essentially lead the charter in that endeavor.

OOC, this story provides us with an opportunity and RP rationale to pursue and experience every aspect of the game, as we see everything as a source of knowledge...including warfare. It also gives us reason to pursue one of our more interesting pursuits: to "flesh out" the virtual world of Golarion. There is a huge amount of unclassified material that is left out of the imaginary world of Golarion, that will be absolutely necessary in the virtual world. "Background" Plants, minerals, bugs, animals, landmarks, etc...all need to be classified and explained in a way that makes it part of Golarion, a living world. This is part of what many of us hope to do.

The information we find and develop will be freely available to the community, preferably in an actual in-game library, but barring that we are developing a wiki on our website. All members of the Caeruxi are authors able to contribute to this library, and we are also allowing members of other charters to apply to be an author/contributor.

In addition to our unique decentralized structure we are in the process of developing a back story that not only extends all the way back to origins in the First World, but also explains our metaphysical perspective of the world. The First World is mutable by will alone. This, to us, is valid rationale for our belief the world is an illusion, perhaps collectively created. The Material Plane, although more rigid in structure, should have the same underlying nature.

We welcome questions, concerns, or just general discussion (as well as random RP), feel free to do so here or visit our website.

OOC, this story provides us with an opportunity and RP rationale to pursue and experience every aspect of the game, as we see everything as a source of knowledge...including warfare.

You should definitely read that to mean that we will be Fully Engaged with the game. We have every intention of being as much of a military powerhouse as we will be an academic powerhouse.

"I just let them talk whilst I commit to my own work, every now and then I'll check and to see if they need anything and let them continue on."

Sengir picks up his backpack and straps it on.

"I think Nihimon likes this engaging talk with our guest here, so I shouldn't try and stop them. It might hurt Nihimon's feelings if I was to interfere."

And in the game, while you two are blathering on, talking past each other, someone will have hired an assassin to stab ya both to quiet you down.

Sorry if the conversation wasn't appealing to you. It was a bit challenging for me, too, until I realized that Obakararuir meant "In Character" rather than "I see" when he started the one post with "IC".

As for someone hiring an assassin to quite us down, I have no doubt that there are people here who would gladly do whatever they could to permanently silence those with whom they disagree. I can't control their actions, and wouldn't want to if I could.

We're here to accomplish our goals, not to worry about things beyond our control. I'm proud of our goals, and confident in our ability to accomplish them. I hope most others see that.

Sorry I'm late to the party.

"Knowledge is power" is a simplification.

Power and control are on opposite ends of a spectrum. More power equals less control and vice versa. Power gained without knowledge is dangerous [Stephen R Donaldson]. It may be powerful, but it may also destroy you. Knowledge gives you the cability to increase your level of control. Without knowledge, you have no control.

I do not subscribe to the notion that chaos is necessary for order, nor good and evil. They are independent entities that have no necessary relationship.

There is no such thing as independence within any system that experiences change. These things can only be spoken of in comparisons. "Chaos" compared to what? "Good" compared to what? There are no absolutes.

Yin yang theory crash course: Yin and yang have 4 relationships that exist in a cycle of constant change and homeostasis:

1) Opposition. They are opposing, though not strictly opposite.
2) Interdependence. One cannot exist without the other. This isn't a metaphysical thing. It's like saying ice can't exist without water.
3) Mutual consumption. The goal of a system is balance. When out of balance, yin and yang have an inverse relationship.
4) Inter-transformation. Each contains the seed of the other and eventually becomes the other in extreme imbalance.

Even though they have a variety of different relationships, at no point are they ever independent from the other. It's not possible within any system. Also, at no point is there absolute yin or absolute yang. Also, at any point along the cycle, it's only useful to discuss how much yin there is relative to the amount of yang, and vice versa. Saying there is X amount of yin doesn't mean anything by itself. Is that a little or a lot?

This is why people get so worked up on the regular forums about alignment. People want to see things in absolutes, but that is divorced from reality. A paladin is good. Compared to what--a goblin? Obviously, so is a slug. Compared to a good cleric? Now you have a useful point of reference.

But even so, he can only be 99% good, because it's simply impossible to avoid moral dilemmas. Sooner or later he will have to make a tough choice--save the child, or save the city. At least 1% of the time he will have to deviate from being good. Does that mean he falls? It shouldn't, because it's unavoidable in his line of work. It means he's doing his job.

You are right, you are late. =) You are right, it is a simplification.

Knowledge of the capabilities of power CAN increase it.

Raw power used correctly CAN rend more knowledge.

You are right, you are late. =) You are right, it is a simplification.

Knowledge of the capabilities of power CAN increase it.

Raw power used correctly CAN rend more knowledge.

I'll bite. A tsunami has incredible power. After it has excercised it, has it gained knowledge? How about an earthquake? I know a great many powerful people who are also totally bereft of knowledge or wisdom.

I'll bite. A tsunami has incredible power. After it has excercised it, has it gained knowledge? How about an earthquake?

No, be we have. Observing nature helps us predict and deal with living in it. Observing supernovas gives us knowledge of the universe.

I know a great many powerful people who are also totally bereft of knowledge or wisdom.

Success in a non-meritocracy isn't the best example, but even a system like that can be gamed by knowing that you need to meet and manipulate the right people.

The argument could also be made that such people cause a great deal of harm without really reaping any benefit (certainly not proportional to the damage they cause), which brings us back to the mindless destructive power of something inherently incapable of knowledge. Again, something for other people to learn from.

Which means that while we lack power, we have knowledge. For my money, knowledge is a force multiplier of power. It gives your power focus, control. Instead of a stack of TNT, you have a shaped charge. Instead of a club, you have a blade. A fire hardened spear is better than a stick. Knowledge alone holds its own sort of power, but for the most part knowledge adds to effects of power.

Yup, knowledge leverages power.

As for raw natural power, my feeling is that since inanimate objects have no consciousness or self-agency, they can't really have anything, they simply are.

Natural disasters alter human behavior. The more frequent the disaster, the more the behavior is altered.

It certainly has influence, but can you call it power when the entity is completely indifferent to the outcome?

It certainly has influence, but can you call it power when the entity is completely indifferent to the outcome?

Yes. Yes I can.

Or are you saying that power requires personal investment into the outcome? Powerful, uncaring forces (and people) are not less powerful for their uncaring, and would not have greater power if they cared about the outcomes, although they would use their power differently if they did.

Power of a non-sentient object or event and the power of a sentient being are two different things. Natural disasters display power through exertion of energy resulting in effects to which we react. Sentient beings possess power in a more multifaceted way.

Physcial action, basically the same concept as exertion of energy. Exertion of influence which includes knowingly withholding something others need. You still expend energy but on a significantly smaller scale.

Villagers need food because of famine. Lord says no. Only energy he personally expended was listening, responding, and automated bodily functions that would have happened anyway. Because of influence, which is a product of power, the Lord's wishes are carried out by underlings and the villagers starve. Yes villagers could try and raid stores and either succeed or fail, but the ratio of power output still favors the Lord. Through the use of influence, one can cause the exertion of power from others.

Now, can one who possess great knowledge not also have influence? Wise men, prophets, healers, scholars are all sources of knowledge. The utilization of this knowledge to help or harm lends to power. Their possession of knowledge is the source of their power. What good is a healer who does not know how to heal? What good is a scholar who knows nothing? However, while in the possession of knowledge, they can utilize it to create power, and thus yield influence.

Things of non-sentience have no self control and cannot actively influence, increase or decrease power, or know.

This is not as much a question of physics as it is of philosophy.

Natural disasters alter human behavior. The more frequent the disaster, the more the behavior is altered.

It certainly has influence, but can you call it power when the entity is completely indifferent to the outcome?

The power itself does not always need to have a direction, but others can and do use knowlege in relation to that power.

We all agree that money can be converted into power. If somehow I knew something valuble were about to be destroyed by a natural dissaster, and I sold it to someone else. I used knowlege to maintain my power, while at the same time the sucker I sold it to, just lost power due to his lack of knowledge.

Knowledge is always power, power is not always knowledge.
A square is always a rectangle, a rectangle is not always a square.

As well not all knowledge is power in regards to anything you care about. You may know the migration pattern of the honey bees, but unless you are going into the beekeeping business, that isn't knowledge that is particularly useful for you in day to day life. It is power, but not over anything that matters.

Things of non-sentience have no self control and cannot actively influence, increase or decrease power, or know.

Indeed, but things of sentiance can sometimes predict the outcome of unguided power, and use it to their advantage.

influence

The Lord's influence is an accident of birth, backed by divine mandate.

His power isn't based on his own knowledge, but rather on the ignorance of his subjects who consent because they don't know any better.

It's a subtle distinction. One person's ignorance is another person's power, even though they haven't actually gained any knowledge. All they've gained is an opportunity. It does take some wisdom to take advantage of opportunity, but it's different from increasing power by increasing knowledge.

The power of wise men is also dependent on who they give their consent to. If they consent to the Lord's rule, they are his tools and his power. If they employ some self agency, they are utilizing their own power.

Things of non-sentience have no self control and cannot actively influence, increase or decrease power, or know.

Indeed, but things of sentiance can sometimes predict the outcome of unguided power, and use it to their advantage.

An educated guess, a prediction, is still a guess, not knowledge.

If you know the migration pattern of the honey bees and that is the only knowledge you possess, are you powerless? Can you not make honey? Can you not eat that honey? Trade the honey, if someone asks you for it? Can you not sell it, after you have learned an almost insignificant about commerce from someone who wanted something from you? Can you not show others what you do in order to make honey, in essence teaching them?

So by knowing the migration of bees, you can manipulate the creation of a food source, feed yourself, trade, learn, sell, and teach. This may not be very impressive to YOU, but the only thing you know is the migration pattern of bees.... this is a whole new world.

The Lord's influence is an accident of birth, backed by divine mandate.

And if the wasn't a Lord and only claimed Lordship upon taking the land by force? What if nobility isn't succeeded from one generation to another? What if the crown and the cross are at odds?

Obakararuir wrote:

influence

The Lord's influence is an accident of birth, backed by divine mandate.

His power isn't based on his own knowledge, but rather on the ignorance of his subjects who consent because they don't know any better.

It's a subtle distinction. One person's ignorance is another person's power, even though they haven't actually gained any knowledge. All they've gained is an opportunity. It does take some wisdom to take advantage of opportunity, but it's different from increasing power by increasing knowledge.

The power of wise men is also dependent on who they give their consent to. If they consent to the Lord's rule, they are his tools and his power. If they employ some self agency, they are utilizing their own power.

The power of a ruler is a combination of the loyalty and power of his subjects and the loyalty and power of his soldiers. Knowledge ENABLES power, by letting a person inspire loyalty in subjects and soldiers and by doing so become a ruler. The wisest people will be loyal servants of a wise ruler, and will be docile subjects in the face of one who is powerful through loyal soldiers.

Is fear another road to power, or is using fear to gain power just the knowledge that people would rather live than be free? What knowledge defeats the power of fear?

Is self preservation always the wisest action, or even the most powerful action? Martyrs gain great power--for others to wield. What knowledge is tranferred here?

An educated guess, a prediction, is still a guess, not knowledge.

If my guesses are consistently more accurate than your guesses, then what are we to conclude? I would expect a wise man to conclude that my guesses are based on better knowledge.

Or you're just a lucky guesser. :)

There were several tests I took in high school having not studied the materials and when happening upon most of the questions I really didn't have a clue as to what the "right" answer was so I guessed. Well, I have my diploma so clearly I passed. :D

This doesn't mean I know anything about those topics and I probably couldn't intelligently discuss them. These were mostly b.s. classes but the point remains, I still have no more knowledge than I did previous, and if I actually do, it's quite probably anecdotal at best.

Or you're just a lucky guesser. :)

There were several tests I took in high school having not studied the materials and when happening upon most of the questions I really didn't have a clue as to what the "right" answer was so I guessed. Well, I have my diploma so clearly I passed. :D

This doesn't mean I know anything about those topics and I probably couldn't intelligently discuss them. These were mostly b.s. classes but the point remains, I still have no more knowledge than I did previous, and if I actually do, it's quite probably anecdotal at best.

What you are showing there is that your school did not test your knowledge. What they did test, if anything, I'm not sure- probably some complicated "Knowledge or cheating or insight".

One form of knowledge is the ability to make accurate predictions about the future. Another form is the ability to quantify exactly what your predictions are.

Alright, so you guys have put a LOT of effort already into your chartered company, and it looks like it will be great.

THAT being said. . . I feel almost obligated to oppose you. There's just something about the idea of a bunch of glorified librarians (yeah yeah, I know, you do more than just read books) running around in charge of the River Kingdoms that just seems . . . WRONG! I keep trying to imagine your group in my tabletop Kingmaker game.

I might have to see if that breadmaking business is hiring. . .

What you are showing there is that your school did not test your knowledge. What they did test, if anything, I'm not sure- probably some complicated "Knowledge or cheating or insight".

One form of knowledge is the ability to make accurate predictions about the future. Another form is the ability to quantify exactly what your predictions are.

How am I predicting the future or quantifying predictions of the future by filling out a multiple choice test?

... the idea of a bunch of glorified librarians... running around in charge of the River Kingdoms... just seems... WRONG!

Well, we certainly don't plan to be "in charge" of the entire River Kingdoms...

EDIT: In fact, we don't really plan to be "in charge" of our entire Company. We expect there will be a lot of largely autonomous groups operating within our Charter. Centralized power is dangerous, and vulnerable.

I might have to see if that breadmaking business is hiring...

It's a metaphysical certitude.

DeciusBrutus wrote:

What you are showing there is that your school did not test your knowledge. What they did test, if anything, I'm not sure- probably some complicated "Knowledge or cheating or insight".

One form of knowledge is the ability to make accurate predictions about the future. Another form is the ability to quantify exactly what your predictions are.

How am I predicting the future or quantifying predictions of the future by filling out a multiple choice test?

You didn't. The test didn't measure knowledge. That comment was toward the other discussion, where being able to predict the future with greater or lesser accuracy was the topic.

Oh! My bad.

Kevin Cannell wrote:

... the idea of a bunch of glorified librarians... running around in charge of the River Kingdoms... just seems... WRONG!

Well, we certainly don't plan to be "in charge" of the entire River Kingdoms...

EDIT: In fact, we don't really plan to be "in charge" of our entire Company. We expect there will be a lot of largely autonomous groups operating within our Charter. Centralized power is dangerous, and vulnerable.

I'm just waiting for the "we take what we want because we can" chartered company that has yet to rear it's ugly head. . .

Of course, there needs to be more to it than that, but that's the heart of the river kingdoms mindset. I guess it's way early still, but I would think a group like yours would be the exception, not the rule.

The good squad has already introduced themselves.

... I would think a group like yours would be the exception, not the rule.

I also think we're exceptional :)