Chartered Company: The Seventh Veil


Pathfinder Online

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Goblin Squad Member

The US has Diplomatic Channels with Iran. Most would not call them "allies"?

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:

The US has Diplomatic Channels with Iran. Most would not call them "allies"?

On April 7, 1980, the United States broke diplomatic relations with Iran, and on April 24, 1981, the Swiss Government assumed representation of U.S. interests in Tehran. Iranian affairs in the United States were represented by Algeria until 1993, when Algeria broke diplomatic relations with Iran, accusing the Tehran regime of interfering with Algeria’s internal affairs. Since 1993, Iran has been represented by the Embassy of Pakistan, in the Iranian Interests Section, in Washington, DC. Iran also has a permanent mission to the United Nations in New York City.

Fail.

Goblin Squad Member

I could quibble about the difference between Diplomatic Channels and formal diplomatic relations, but I won't.

Yes, I failed.

Let's try again, and this time I'll say "Russia" instead of "Iran". The point applies.

Goblin Squad Member

It's worth reminding everyone (me included) what The Seventh Veil is all about.

The Seventh Veil will display the following attributes:

Fun - We are dedicated to keeping Pathfinder Online fun to play for all members. You will never be required to do anything you don't want to do, and we will take every opportunity to make the game as fun as you've dreamed it could be.

Fully Engaged - We are dedicated to embracing all aspects of gameplay. Members who choose to specialize in a single aspect, such as Crafting, and members who choose to dabble in everything will be equally at home.

Organized - We are dedicated to providing the kind of organized events that turn a group of individual players who share a chat channel into a strong family unit. Not only do we intend to host organized events, but we also intend to be organized in measuring the participation and contribution of our members, to ensure they are properly rewarded.

Family Friendly - Not only are family and friends welcome, but we will strive to create a place safe for children, whether they are with us in chat or simply looking over their parent's shoulders. It is understood that even best of us can slip up and say something we'll regret in the heat of the moment, but casual cursing and overtly sexual chat should be kept to private channels.

RP-Friendly - RP'ers and non-RP'ers alike will be welcome, and we will encourage RP but it will not be required. Intolerance in either direction will not be permitted. Expect organized RP events, and a safe haven for constant RP.

Hardcore-Friendly - We welcome hardcore players who want to reach the very apex of their chosen playstyle, and we are committed to reaching the pinnacle of achievement in Pathfinder Online, with your help.

Casual-Friendly - We also welcome casual players who may not be able to dedicate as much time to the game, and are simply looking for a place to call home, and friends to play with.

Members of The Seventh Veil will display the following attributes:

Integrity - You will be expected to play by the rules; those of Pathfinder Online, and those of The Seventh Veil. When you say that you will do something, we expect you to make every reasonable effort to do it, or to let us know that you can't.

Positive Attitude - Your attitude influences that of everyone else around you; keep it positive and you will find others drawn to you simply because they feel happier when you're around.

Patience - It is easy to get caught up in an argument and dismiss what the other person is saying before they've even spoken. We must all strive to remember we have two ears and one mouth - listen first, gain understanding, and only then speak.

Curiosity - You must have a spark of curiosity inside of you, seeking to learn the mysteries of Golarian, and share them not only with your fellow members, but with everyone.

Commitment - The Seventh Veil will succeed or fail based not on the occasional actions of the few, but rather on the sustained efforts of the many. As we are committed to ensuring your individual success, so we ask you to commit yourself to ensuring the collective success of The Seventh Veil.

Self-Reliance - We are committed to helping our members, but that is a gift from the other members, not a right you should demand. If you find yourself unable to get help with something, step back and ask if there's anyone you can help, instead.

Willingness to Help - No one will ever expect you to drop everything you're doing whenever someone else asks for help, but we will do everything we can to encourage a general spirit of helpfulness in The Seventh Veil. You can help us set an example everyone should be proud of.

~ Nihimon, Founding Member of the Cæruxi

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:

I could quibble about the difference between Diplomatic Channels and formal diplomatic relations, but I won't.

Yes, I failed.

Let's try again, and this time I'll say "Russia" instead of "Iran". The point applies.

IC: Well in that case, I'd like to unofficially inform you that I will accept payment or trade for any goods formerly claimed by your company that end up in my possession and/or persons of interest with allegances to your company that I happen to aquire and "protect".

Finally, be advised that I claim no responsiblity for any damages to or loss of property or persons while under my protection and supervision.

Goblin Squad Member

BlackUhuru wrote:
Obakararuir wrote:

al·li·ance / əˈlīəns / Noun: 1. A union or association formed for mutual benefit, esp. between countries or organizations.

If not for mutual benefit then why the Diplomatic Outreach?

As far as my threats are concerned, they are bold, distinct, and unambigious. If I threaten you, you will know it.

My point ussta abbil is that there are those who deal in the other less diplomatic forms of resolution when things seem no longer mutually beneficial.

Oh sounds fun!! You should apply to the Seventh Veil...

And why might that be?

Goblin Squad Member

Because with all those book shelves...every Library has its dark corners.

Read that as you may...

Goblin Squad Member

Obakararuir wrote:

IC: Well in that case, I'd like to unofficially inform you that I will accept payment or trade for any goods formerly claimed by your company that end up in my possession and/or persons of interest with allegances to your company that I happen to aquire and "protect".

Finally, be advised that I claim no responsiblity for any damages to or loss of property or persons while under my protection and supervision.

I'd wish you good luck, but it would be utterly insincere. I have neither a desire, nor an expectation, to see you succeed in taking what belongs to me. Should you succeed, I expect I'll pay the iron price to get it back :)

Goblin Squad Member

Bah, Obakararuir sounds like one who can get things...we procure knowledge, no questions asked. I expect we might end up one of his best customers, sounds like economic diplomacy to me.

Then there's no reason to "get" from us...what do they say about friends and enemies...and hugs?

...besides, I respect anyone who can change my opinion in a debate.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

I'm sure there will be plenty of people looking to prey upon the weak. We have no intention of being the predator, nor the weak.


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You can have my guaranteed assurance that the Caeruxi will be fully capable of shielding themselves with both our knowledge and physical prowess. We are a haven for all types of knowledge including military knowledge. I fully intend for the Caeruxi to be a capable defensive force. This also allows us quite the diversity in membership.

Goblin Squad Member

Diversity is a double edged sword especially when you insert it into an organization who's purpose is amassing as much power as possible.

Nothing can be guaranteed in life, except the long death... and even that contract has it's share of fine print.

Goblin Squad Member

True, although admittedly our purpose is not the acquisition of power, rather knowledge...with which we hope build wisdom. Other acquisitions are merely means to that end.

But, we do welcome those who know how to hold a metaphoric blade. Knowing what can cut another, can also cut you...is wisdom many never acquire.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
I'd wish you good luck, but it would be utterly insincere. I have neither a desire, nor an expectation, to see you succeed in taking what belongs to me. Should you succeed, I expect I'll pay the iron price to get it back.

Would a rothe' breeder slaughter a young, healthy heifer after her first season? I think not, for the heifer will yield more rothe' and thus more profit. For the right price... now you are left with the decision of immediate compensation or long term investment. No ussta abbil it is not likely you would be forced to pay the iron price.

Forencith wrote:

Bah, Obakararuir sounds like one who can get things...we procure knowledge, no questions asked. I expect we might end up one of his best customers, sounds like economic diplomacy to me.

You are perceptive. Although diplomacy would imply an ongoing relationship of significance and that commitment from me would come at a very steep price. An organization with great power could meet the price... and if you truly believe that knowledge and power are not one in the same then you may not be as perceptive as you think. Although, knowledge isn't the only form of power, it is among the most valued form of power... hence the existance of your company.

Goblin Squad Member

Taudl, you are correct that I do not necessarily see knowledge as power. One is...how do you say...bel'la'n to reality, the other is not...with different features, how can they be said to be equivalent through identity?

Goblin Squad Member

Lor veirs lu' dos orn kyorl. They are beyond bel'la'n and rath'argh. Both can be used independently or in conjunction. Both can be used for good and evil.

What good is the knowledge of a weakness without the power to exploit it? What good is omnipotent power without the knowledge to channel it? They may not be universally interchangable but they are as much a part of one another as night and day... good and evil... prosperity and poverty.

Goblin Squad Member

I agree with your conclusion...but only because I disagree with your argument. I do not subscribe to the notion that chaos is necessary for order, nor good and evil. They are independent entities that have no necessary relationship. Light and dark, prosperity and poverty are different, but still do not support your cause. Metaphorically, your argument is a beautiful one, but ultimately flawed...light and prosperity are positive somethings, dark and poverty are not...they are the lack of a positive thing. It is really light and the lack of light, prosperity and the lack of prosperity. The fact that the concept is common enough that we give it a name does not make it a positive something.

This may seem a silly bit of qua'laelay, but in fact it is illustrating my point. We each, you and I, have differing wisdoms based upon the same bits of common knowledge, which provides us the most power? What in themselves, what in their respective astereni can be defined in terms of power, positive or negative?

You ask what good is knowledge of a weakness without the power to exploit it? I would argue one with knowledge of a weakness has by default of having the knowledge, responsibility. Power is what you have when you are considering perverting that responsibility into personal gain. Therefore, power is by definition the perversion of responsibility. What good is ultimate responsibility without the wisdom to act on it?

Goblin Squad Member

You have the right idea but you miss my point. Stop thinking in absolute ideals. They define one another. How would you define responsibility if the power was non-existent? Responsibility is accountability. How can you be accountable for something you have no control, no power over? How would you comprehend responsibility, power, or anything at all if you were unable to attain and retain knowledge? Having power implies advantage... control... what good is power without knowing how to use it? What good is knowledge without the power to execute the lessons learned from the acquired knowledge?

They are interlocking individual ideals whose very definitions require the existence of one another. Contrast requires two at least. Light AND Dark. Knowledge AND Power.

You must possess power to be responsible. You must know how to use power and know what responsibility is. You cannot fully realize power without understanding it, knowing it, and knowing the reprecussions of not using it responsibly. Responsibility is irrelevant without knowledge or power. Possessing knowledge is immaterial if you lack the power to utilize it, which is the implied responsibility of knowledge.

If you sense a bit of redundancy, its ok... you should. It happens when you go round and round and round in circles... but a circle is one complete unbroken line with no beginning and no end. All and none came first. They simply are.

Goblin Squad Member

I don't miss your point, I am denying your point. I understand you believe knowledge is power, most would agree with you. I am denying that position.

Responsibility is the duty to fix what you know is broken. Power is the ability to leverage what you know is broken. I defined each without the use of the other. And your analogy, Light and dark...knowledge and power...actually suggests they are mutually exclusive, which seems counter to your claim.

Acting upon responsibility actually removes power as it fixes what is broken and hence removes your leverage. Perverting that duty results in the accumulation of power because you use what is broken to leverage breaking something else.

No, I did not sense redundancy because you said conflicting things. But, I did notice the lack of any progression in our discussion. I think at this point we might be forced to admit we live in different worlds created by our different experiences and racial upbringings. Being a gnome I admit to seeing the world from a much...closer to the ground perspective than you tall folk. I realize you probably think I am...challenged...and that is okay, I do not mind being underestimated.

I would like to thank you though...it has been long since I have gotten to practice my drow...and I always enjoy a good debate. We did not find agreement, but sometimes the act of sharing is enough to...well to fix the problem.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Obak, I disagree with your definitions.

For a person to be responsible for an occurrence, the necessary and sufficient condition is that they are the source of that occurrence. Accountability is only created by contract.

Power is identical with responsibility, but not accountability. Power and responsibility are the concrete and moral names for the same thing. Accountability, a legal concept, only exists as the results of an agreement to be accountable. It is easy to be accountable for something over which you have no power: I swear on the graves of my ancestors that the sun will rise tomorrow.

There exist only absolute ideals, but we perceive only a cross section of them which is perceptible to us. Ignorance and weakness are not things, but the name which we apply to the absence of knowledge and power; if knowledge and power were everywhere, there would be no word for their lack, just as there is no word to describe what the absence of the aether is called.

Very often, the only thing that separates one of minor power from one of great power is the presence of knowledge. Yet the lever long enough to move the world is useless without a place to stand; no attainable amount of knowledge becomes power directly, but only through actions that are possible without the knowledge. Knowledge, then, might best be described as the difference between happenstance and intention.

Goblinworks Founder

*curls up in the fetal position and begins to suck his thumb*

"The end of knowledge is power ... the scope of all speculation is the performing of some action or thing to be done."

Power is in one hand, knowledge is in the other... when i put them together they made this knife that I will use to stab your faces if you continue this conversation... tee hee

Goblin Squad Member

By the way...for any Caeruxi who have not recently visited our home forums. We are currently having some good foundational discussions about our lore, our organizational structure, and the nature of the charter in general. Please stop in and leave your opinions and perspectives.

Goblin Squad Member

Creating a governmental structure from scratch is hard work. Any help and/or input would be appreciated.

Goblin Squad Member

You speak as if power the opposite of responsibility. How do you fix something you are responsible for without power? It's immaterial whether or not fixing something broken reduces or increase the amount of power you have. Power must be first possessed if it is to be removed.

Obakararuir wrote:
Both can be used independently or in conjunction.
Forencith wrote:
knowledge and power...actually suggests they are mutually exclusive, which seems counter to your claim.

Clearly, you miss my point. Knowledge is theory accepted and/or proven as fact. Either way, that theory must be tested. Testing must be unobjective. If not then the result will never truly be fact. A fact is something that is known, hence knowledge. A prejudiced guess is still only a guess, a theory, unproven, truly unknown... the lack of knowledge.

Regardless, we agree on one thing. The lack of progression with this discussion.

As far as being challenged, you raised valid points but failed to maintain support for them. That is merely a hurdle, a single obstacle in a challenge comprised of many obstacles, not just one. Complexity can be mistaken confliction if one lacks the knowledge intimate to the subject. It doesn't mean you are stupid, just ignorant. Ignorance being the lack of knowledge does not bode well for a company whose purpose is the aquisition of knowledge... and as I've stated before knowledge is power.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Obakararuir wrote:

As far as being challenged, you raised valid points but failed to maintain support for them. That is merely a hurdle, a single obstacle in a challenge comprised of many obstacles, not just one. Complexity can be mistaken confliction if one lacks the knowledge intimate to the subject. It doesn't mean you are stupid, just ignorant. Ignorance being the lack of knowledge does not bode well for a company whose purpose is the aquisition of knowledge... and as I've stated before knowledge is power.

The challenges were to premises and definitions. Those cannot be supported, because they are what is used to support.

Knowledge of a subject requires understanding, even love of the subject. There is no such thing as an objective observation or truth or even fact. Objectivity is the lack of personal involvement in the process of knowledge, in other words, carelessness. Choosing to select a consistent subjective position, one that can easily be taken by others for consistency, is sometimes useful, and sometimes not. One has to love the scientific method a great deal to use it all the time, because it taints one's love of the subject.

Studying something to kill it requires that you kill a bit of yourself in the process. Blaeringr can help you with that part better than I can.

Goblin Squad Member

*laugh*...knowledge might be fact, but fact is not necessarily truth. Yet we all know different truths and pass them off as facts...and that is what you propose to exchange. I do not think you understand the knowledge we are are looking for. We do not care for these surface truths...these facts you deal in are what defines the illusion that we are attempting to disbelieve. We collect these facts for the sole purpose of finding cracks in truths...to reveal the Mysteries beneath. We do this with no care for the power you broker in.

We will buy the information you sell, if you are willing, because every piece of the puzzle helps define the size and shape of the missing one next to it.

Goblin Squad Member

Power rests upon knowledge, but the reverse is not true. The relationship is one way.

Goblin Squad Member

Non-transitive relationships are usually related via causality than by equality via identity.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:

Obak, I disagree with your definitions.

For a person to be responsible for an occurrence, the necessary and sufficient condition is that they are the source of that occurrence. Accountability is only created by contract.

ac·count·a·ble (-kount-bl)

adj.
1. Liable to being called to account; answerable. See Synonyms at responsible.
2. That can be explained: an accountable phenomenon.

DeciusBrutus wrote:
Power is identical with responsibility, but not accountability. Power and responsibility are the concrete and moral names for the same thing. Accountability, a legal concept, only exists as the results of an agreement to be accountable. It is easy to be accountable for something over which you have no power: I swear on the graves of my ancestors that the sun will rise tomorrow.

You can claim accountability all you want. You only reinforce my points by claiming to be accountable for something you have no power over.

DeciusBrutus wrote:
There exist only absolute ideals, but we perceive only a cross section of them which is perceptible to us. Ignorance and weakness are not things, but the name which we apply to the absence of knowledge and power; if knowledge and power were everywhere, there would be no word for their lack, just as there is no word to describe what the absence of the aether is called.

You are correct in you point that we give ideas names. So tell me how can you tell that knowledge and power are absent if they don't exist? That is the opposite of the point that you made... so which is the greater? They are equal.

Obakararuir wrote:
a circle is one complete unbroken line with no beginning and no end. All and none came first. They simply are.
DeciusBrutus wrote:
Very often, the only thing that separates one of minor power from one of great power is the presence of knowledge.

Not presence... quantity and quality.

A sword can kill a man. Minor power.

Many men with many swords can kill many men. Many dead men leave much to be acquired. People will want what is acquired giving me leverage.
Major power.

Knowledge was present in both instances.

DeciusBrutus wrote:
Yet the lever long enough to move the world is useless without a place to stand;

Knowledge is the base upon which the lever can be pulled... but not without power.

DeciusBrutus wrote:
no attainable amount of knowledge becomes power directly, but only through actions that are possible without the knowledge. Knowledge, then, might best be described as the difference between happenstance and intention.

Happenstances and intentions are irrelevant if you lack the power to execute either.

I've stated above that they can be independent but are linked. See my own quote above. Power exists regardless of knowledge. The lack of power does not affect the knowledge one already possesses. This is true yes... but power isn't inherently evil. One who possesses knowledge and power can increase said power more proficiently than one without knowledge. Knowledge is gained through the use of power. Power is increased by the acquisition of knowledge. I could go on for days... seriously. You may have a different opinion on the matter, but opinions aren't fact. This brings me back to unobjectivity. You and your associates have a vested interest in knowledge which lends to prejudice.

Fact: Knowledge and power can increase the other exponentially as they are part of the same circle. They are related. To dispute this is simply ignorance. The acquisition of one provides the opportunity to acquire the other.

Knowledge is power.

Goblin Squad Member

Forencith wrote:

*laugh*...knowledge might be fact, but fact is not necessarily truth. Yet we all know different truths and pass them off as facts...and that is what you propose to exchange. I do not think you understand the knowledge we are are looking for. We do not care for these surface truths...these facts you deal in are what defines the illusion that we are attempting to disbelieve. We collect these facts for the sole purpose of finding cracks in truths...to reveal the Mysteries beneath. We do this with no care for the power you broker in.

We will buy the information you sell, if you are willing, because every piece of the puzzle helps define the size and shape of the missing one next to it.

As I stated before... knowledge is power, not truth. Truth is subjective.

Goblin Squad Member

Obakararuir wrote:
Knowledge is gained through the use of power.

This seems strained. Knowledge can just as easily be gained by the realization of powerlessness.

Obakararuir wrote:
The acquisition of one provides the opportunity to acquire the other.

This too.

Your acquisition of knowledge has a direct, positive effect on your ability to gain power.

Your acquisition of power does not have a similar effect on your ability to gain knowledge. It may increase your opportunity, but not your ability.

Knowledge is power. Power is not knowledge. It is not a circle, it is one man standing on the shoulders of another.

Goblin Squad Member

Obakararuir wrote:
Truth is subjective.

It is not "truth" which is subjective. It is we who are subjective, and therefore our perception of truth is subjective.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Power rests upon knowledge, but the reverse is not true. The relationship is one way.

What good is knowledge without the power to act upon it? What knowledge does the sun possess? It is a non-sentient being. Are you now going to try and tell me that because the sun by definition of non-sentience cannot possess knowledge that it is powerless!?

Ignorance.

I will sell you all the knowledge your company can afford. It will do you no good.

Goblin Squad Member

And would you tell me that if the sun could possess knowledge its power would be increased?

I would not seek to buy knowledge from one who made such a claim... at any price.

Goblin Squad Member

Well, the problem as I see it is that I was explicitly disregarding the physical connotations of power...as in the ability to do work and/or the expenditure of energy. I was purely referring to power and responsibility from the social and moral perspectives. There is clear overlap of definition in Obakasasuir's usage throughout the debate. I assume it has to do with a different sense of the world power derived from drow culture...which I hear can be fairly cut-throat, or maybe it is a simple translation issue.

This makes neither of us wrong, as I am equally subject to the influences of my culture...and cannot claim neutrality. Since we each have different facts we are using to build our respective truths about the world, on this particular topic agreement is impossible, as our arguments are founded upon different definitions.

On the other hand, what we do with the knowledge we procure is not really any of your business...especially in light of your lack of logical reception to our goals. Perhaps we wish to stick it in books to decorate our empty shelves...and that, we view in this hypothetical, is the sole purpose of life. What difference is it of yours? Do you get much business by insulting those who wish to employ you?

Goblin Squad Member

But don't you see? It is the business of someone who wishes to pilfer that knowledge out from under your nose and sell it to others. Guides you write, dungeon locations, hideouts, settlements, resource nodes, etc. There is indeed much business to be had in sticking one's nose into another's "personal" archives.

Goblin Squad Member

You would steal something that is freely available? Why steal from a library when you can just borrow the book?

Goblin Squad Member

You really think they're going to make everything they know freely available?

The library's nice and all, but that mostly sounds like stuff that's going to be available from other sources, making the Seventh Veil really nothing special as an information source. But the extra bits, the type stuff all companies will pick up, like what I mentioned in my previous post, will make it useful to peak in their window from time to time.

Not just them of course. I see it as a useful practice regarding most companies.

Goblin Squad Member

Blaeringr wrote:

You really think they're going to make everything they know freely available?

The library's nice and all, but that mostly sounds like stuff that's going to be available from other sources, making the Seventh Veil really nothing special as an information source. But the extra bits, the type stuff all companies will pick up, like what I mentioned in my previous post, will make it useful to peak in their window from time to time.

Not just them of course. I see it as a useful practice regarding most companies.

Well at least in my experience in MMO's and well pretty much anywhere in the world, there's 2 categories of information.

1. Freely available to all
2. Exclusively available to a small trusted group.

In general information that is sold, will reap it's entire profits on the first 1-2 sales, after that it's pretty much changed to category 1.

Goblinworks Founder

The sun has power over us, and it shares that power freely. We gained some knowledge of what the sun is and does, so we used that knowledge to make use of the suns power. The sun only cuts us off when it deems necessary and offers it to us again in twelve hours which we figured was to be called a day. Can not say if the sun is living or just a grand artifact of the gods.

A wizard does not always cast a spell he is unfamiliar with, he'll research the spell till he/she can garner some understanding of it's power. He'll then test that spell thus using it's power for himself, and if it's worthy of continual use. You can try power without knowledge but then you're leaving it to a roll of the dice as to what happens, but after that you gain knowledge of that power, if you survive.

Goblin Squad Member

Misere wrote:
You would steal something that is freely available? Why steal from a library when you can just borrow the book?

To prevent the book, if useful, from being read by others thus stopping the spread of knowledge and gaining an advantage over those without it. Which once again lends credit to the statement that knowledge is power.

Goblin Squad Member

Obakararuir wrote:
Misere wrote:
You would steal something that is freely available? Why steal from a library when you can just borrow the book?
To prevent the book, if useful, from being read by others thus stopping the spread of knowledge and gaining an advantage over those without it. Which once again lends credit to the statement that knowledge is power.

Knowledge is free... Power comes at a cost...

Goblin Squad Member

Power implies responsibility which can be ignored. Knowledge implies the responsibility to use it wisely... which can also be ignored.

Goblin Squad Member

Obakararuir wrote:
Power implies responsibility which can be ignored. Knowledge implies the responsibility to use it wisely... which can also be ignored.

I'm going to refer to you as the Knowledge is Power guy cause I cant seem to pronounce your name.

Goblin Squad Member

BlackUhuru wrote:
I cant seem to pronounce your name.

I say it almost like two names... O-ba-ka ra-RUE-ear

[Edited to add back the syllable I'd initially missed]


The sun does not cut us off. It has neither power nor knowledge. If anything is cutting us off from the heat and light of the sun it is the earth as it is that body that rotates and it is that rotation that determines our day/night cycle, not the sun. It is fixed in the center of our solar system and always has been by definition. Some times a big ball of gas and heat is just a big ball of gas and heat. It has no power as your perception of power (keeping an entire solar system in check with gravity and producing massive amounts of heat and light) is skewed as you are simply enjoying the benefits of the laws of the universe in that a bunch of stuff under intense pressure eventually starts a fission reaction which is balanced by gravity with the result being a cohesive ball of fire until such time all the sun's fuel is spent. Astrophysics 101. Should the sun go away and the earth somehow be kept in tact, we have the knowledge to keep our planet going. We know how to produce light and heat and the only issue becomes a matter of scale.

Knowledge also does not equal power. In order to have power you must first be in a position in order to execute the requisite knowledge. It does me no good to have the knowledge that a mineral only available on another planet can be used in a particular manner if I don't have access to that planet. I have knowledge but I have no power. Should I gain access to this planet, then I might have power if I can get to it, refine it, etc. Similarly, I can know everything there is to know about a group of people across the planet but if I am not in a position to execute that knowledge then I have no power over that group of people.

The question then becomes degrees and perception of power as it is not absolute. Were that the case, the man with a million useless facts would be more powerful than the man with a single important fact. This is not the case. You can know how to style hair, make clothes, cook etc but if all I know is how to stop your heart then I have power over you, not the reverse.

Goblin Squad Member

Indeed, Buri.

Obakararuir tells me that knowledge is power, then tells me that the sun has one but not the other. One wonders if it is a jest, or a feeble attempt to confuse me.

There are many things I do not know, but there are a few things I do know:
1. True Victory is Victory over the Self.
2. True Wisdom begins with the acknowledgement of one's own Ignorance.
3. Obakararuir is not easy to pronounce.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:

Indeed, Buri.

Obakararuir tells me that knowledge is power, then tells me that the sun has one but not the other. One wonders if it is a jest, or a feeble attempt to confuse me.

There are many things I do not know, but there are a few things I do know:
1. True Victory is Victory over the Self.
2. True Wisdom begins with the acknowledgement of one's own Ignorance.
3. Obakararuir is not easy to pronounce.

I believe he is saying knowledge always grants power, but power does not always grant knowledge. Now sometimes power from knowledge is particularly situation. IE if a soldier knows every nook and crany on a battlefield, he has a huge advantage in fighting on that battlefield, but is the same everywhere else, the same if I knew every stregnth and weakness of every member of chartered company X, that is quite an advantage if I fight X, but not particularly noteworthy if I am fighting Y. Anything that can be bought, sold etc... or any predictions of what is valuble, helps one make money, which also buys power.

Now as far as power without knowledge, the dumbest barbarian could stumble on a giant rock, or he could just happen to fight until he is very strong, or he could pick up a torch, throw it at a straw building of the enemy, of which he had no idea it was a gunpowder storage tent.

Heck in the real world right now, many current forces have no idea how to manufacture the weapons they are using. They buy them, they work and that's all they care about.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Nihimon wrote:

Indeed, Buri.

Obakararuir tells me that knowledge is power, then tells me that the sun has one but not the other. One wonders if it is a jest, or a feeble attempt to confuse me.

There are many things I do not know, but there are a few things I do know:
1. True Victory is Victory over the Self.
2. True Wisdom begins with the acknowledgement of one's own Ignorance.
3. Obakararuir is not easy to pronounce.

I also liked the part where he said I controlled whether the sun rose today.

In other news, the subject has been cross-posted to the Cæruxi public access forums (registration required).

Goblin Squad Member

It is pronounced (Oh Baah Kaah raah ROO er). Roll the Rs. Its a slightly altered last name of one of my battle buddies who died in Iraq. It originated in Saipan. OB or (oh be) is an usual abbreviation. It is also shortened to Obaka but this tempts me to make a twin brother to my main called Obamabaracker. Please don't make me go there.

Its not really that hard a concept to grasp.

Nihimon wrote:
Obakararuir tells me that knowledge is power, then tells me that the sun has one but not the other. One wonders if it is a jest, or a feeble attempt to confuse me.

I believe I've stated this twice before but just incase here it is again...

Obakararuir wrote:

Obakararuir wrote:

Both can be used independently or in conjunction.

Forencith wrote:
knowledge and power...actually suggests they are mutually exclusive, which seems counter to your claim.

Now...

DeciusBrutus wrote:
I also liked the part where he said I controlled whether the sun rose today.

but wait....

DeciusBrutus wrote:
It is easy to be accountable for something over which you have no power: I swear on the graves of my ancestors that the sun will rise tomorrow.

Your words not mine. Which brings me once again to the knowledge of you and your company's seemingly self imposed ignorance and that believe it or not gives me power over you...

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