I find apples and cherries to have more differences before baking than after.Not a very good analogy:)
You're saying that the difference between apples and cherries is the same as the difference between apple pie and cherry pie. Not the same comparison.
You win:)
Blah,Blah,Blah
Human Sorcerer Level 10
1st level Spells:Mage Armor,Magic Missile,Enlarge Person,Disguise Self,Charm Person,Floating Disc2nd level Spells:Glitterdust,Protection from Evil(communal),Scorching Ray,False Life,Command Undead,Invisibility,Fog Cloud
3rd level Spells:Dispel Magic,Sleet Storm,Fireball,Heatstroke,Haste,Fly
4th level Spells:Dimension Door,Wall of Ice,Black Tentacles,Enervation
5th level Spells:Cloudkill
...now mind you,this is without the bloodline spells.
Wizard advocats, pleeeeze show me where this spell list is lacking,and what a wizard could do better,preferably a situation that comes up often and can not be solved by having a Staff or a scroll.
1st: I can't hardly believe this thread is still going.
2nd: The snarkiness is not necessary or helpful.
3rd: I am not a wizard advocate. I actually usually prefer sorcs most of the time.
4th: Not everything happens in combat. Most sorcs do not take non-combat spells. Current campaign we are 5th level. Detect undead, detect thoughts, detect secret doors, control undead, and share memory have been extremely useful several times. Not necessary, but helpful. Yes there are always other ways to find out things, but this was easier (we are way ahead of module expectations on information gained). I don't think I have ever seen a sorc take any of these three spells, certainly not at 5th level. The campaign is under a lot of time and resource pressure. There have been very few opportunities to buy magic items. If there is a source that could have supplied these as scrolls, we have not had the time to search him out. So far in this module most sorc builds that I have seen would have done quite a bit better than my wizard in the few combats. However, their spells would have been essentially useless outside of combat. The limitations and constraints in the published AP have made it very unlikely that they could have been made up for by purchased scrolls or wands.
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The problem is Abe, you're on the Wizard fallacy in grading what sorcerers can do. A well-made sorcerer who focuses on a theme that words doesn't need to remake herself every morning. I don't need the Human bonus to make my sorcerers work... unless I make the critical mistake in trying to run them as Wizard knockoffs.
I'm going to have to throw a flag here Lazar,
You're comparing Abe's mechanical issue with a case of GM fiat.
If the plot required all paper to combust while every witch's familiar is struck dead, the sorcerer will come out ahead too.
Mechanically the wizard gets his spells one level earlier and has a wider 'palatte' (2 spells per level automatically). By the time the sorcerer gains his one 4th level spell, the wizard can have as many as 4 w/o spending any gold.
If my math is correct, an 8th level wizard (assuming 16 int) will have 8 first level spells, 4 second, 4 third, and 4 fourth. This is compared to the Sorcerer's 6/4/3/1 (including bloodline). Now one can argue that the flexible casting (and deeper clip) is worth that delay and less spells known, but if it is, then why does the Oracle come out ahead, both in spells known and BAB/HP?
To use the 'well made/built around a theme' argument, the sorcerer has a lower margin of error than the wizard. If our sorcerer above has a 'theme' of a movmeent related sorcerer, then dimension door would have fit perfectly. Even a 'thematic' sorcerer can fall down, hard. A blue dragon sorcerer (draconic bloodline) is likely to have shocking grasp, and lightning bolt as his go to spells for damage, to match his theme. If the party is preparing to go up against a demon (commonly immune to electicity) he is in trouble. No mind affecting are really going to slow the demon down, charm person, hold person etc are off the table. The wizard is going to have at least another 3rd level spell, and three more 4th level spells to consider selecting.
Both classes have strengths and weaknesses. The sorcerer has an 8 pack of jumbo sized crayons, while the wizard has a 64 pack of regular sized crayons. The wizard can make prettier pictures, the sorcerer can make more.
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Blah,Blah,Blah
Human Sorcerer Level 10
1st level Spells:Mage Armor,Magic Missile,Enlarge Person,Disguise Self,Charm Person,Floating Disc2nd level Spells:Glitterdust,Protection from Evil(communal),Scorching Ray,False Life,Command Undead,Invisibility,Fog Cloud
3rd level Spells:Dispel Magic,Sleet Storm,Fireball,Heatstroke,Haste,Fly
4th level Spells:Dimension Door,Wall of Ice,Black Tentacles,Enervation
5th level Spells:Cloudkill
...now mind you,this is without the bloodline spells.
Wizard advocats, pleeeeze show me where this spell list is lacking,and what a wizard could do better,preferably a situation that comes up often and can not be solved by having a Staff or a scroll.
Depends on what you are fighting and what obstacles you are up against.
Undead make Cloudkill,Heatstroke and Enervation not a great pick. The undead would love Enervation by the way.
You chose Command Undead so you are expecting Undead but you chose three spells that you really don't want to use against undead.
Is it possible that invidious comparisons between wizards and sorcerers just aren't going to go anywhere?
You're a wizard: you have to decide on metamagic @ preparation, not on the fly.
You're a sorcerer: you have to decide on spell knowledge as you level* and stick with it.
Both cases: suck it up, you chose your class.
*I actually start with figuring out which spells I'd want to have at the END of my level progression; make the list, choose from it as I level up. That way I don't forget something.
I DO think that the one-level delay in gaining new levels of spells is appropriate, considering the bloodline power-spam sorcerers get.
My POINT here is, why the heck are people arguing over which is better? If you like one over the other, PLAY IT. Don't try to rain on the parade of people ENJOYING the other class.
stuff
I don´t get your point.
Why would I cast enervation against undead?
The key is to chose spells that cover various types of enemies, if you face a demon, well black, tentacles could be a valid spell to cast on him (of course depends on the demon etc.). With a talent you can also change the kind of elemental damage your spell does, and anyway you better not focus on a single element theme or you will be often in trouble!
If you take lightning bolt and shocking grasp, get a scorching ray at least to vary! :P
Both classes have strengths and weaknesses. The sorcerer has an 8 pack of jumbo sized crayons, while the wizard has a 64 pack of regular sized crayons. The wizard can make prettier pictures, the sorcerer can make more.
The analogies have improved since last night. LOL
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stuffI don´t get your point.
Why would I cast enervation against undead?
Never said you would, now they would love it. The point is, with a Sorcerer you have to pretty much plan all your encounters while a Wizard can plan encounter by encounter if need be.
Just by throwing in a simple undead I can knock out your highest level spell along with two others. If you were a Wizard you could just swap them around the next day but you are stuck with them until you are able to swap one out.
Blah,Blah,Blah
Human Sorcerer Level 10
1st level Spells:Mage Armor,Magic Missile,Enlarge Person,Disguise Self,Charm Person,Floating Disc2nd level Spells:Glitterdust,Protection from Evil(communal),Scorching Ray,False Life,Command Undead,Invisibility,Fog Cloud
3rd level Spells:Dispel Magic,Sleet Storm,Fireball,Heatstroke,Haste,Fly
4th level Spells:Dimension Door,Wall of Ice,Black Tentacles,Enervation
5th level Spells:Cloudkill
...now mind you,this is without the bloodline spells.
Wizard advocats, pleeeeze show me where this spell list is lacking,and what a wizard could do better,preferably a situation that comes up often and can not be solved by having a Staff or a scroll.
Dimensional anchor. Summon monster. Teleport. Slow. See Invisibility. Identify. Stoneskin (communal). Lesser Planar Binding. Wall of Force/Stone/Fire. Waves of Fatigue. Echolocation. Passwall.
Just anything that doesn't have to do with direct combat. He's also going to do crap against golems. He'll also not be removing curse or breaking enchantment if it's needed either.
Also if you are going to try to do this I suggest Dragon's Breath over fireball or heatstroke. Slightly more damage, but much more options in energy type and attack pattern.
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If my math is correct, an 8th level wizard (assuming 16 int) will have 8 first level spells, 4 second, 4 third, and 4 fourth. This is compared to the Sorcerer's 6/4/3/1 (including bloodline). Now one can argue that the flexible casting (and deeper clip) is worth that delay and less spells known, but if it is, then why does the Oracle come out ahead, both in spells known and BAB/HP?
You're comparing sorcerers and Oracles?!! Mind you know that one spell of each level of those "known" spells is a cure X wounds spell. Others are gained at the cost of a curse, which in that case I'm going to start counting bloodline powers that the sorcs get. Oracles are divine casters. If you're really taking this argument, you might as well ask why Clerics have better BAB/HP than Wizards.
Blah,Blah,Blah
Human Sorcerer Level 10
1st level Spells:Mage Armor,Magic Missile,Enlarge Person,Disguise Self,Charm Person,Floating Disc2nd level Spells:Glitterdust,Protection from Evil(communal),Scorching Ray,False Life,Command Undead,Invisibility,Fog Cloud
3rd level Spells:Dispel Magic,Sleet Storm,Fireball,Heatstroke,Haste,Fly
4th level Spells:Dimension Door,Wall of Ice,Black Tentacles,Enervation
5th level Spells:Cloudkill
...now mind you,this is without the bloodline spells.
Wizard advocats, pleeeeze show me where this spell list is lacking,and what a wizard could do better,preferably a situation that comes up often and can not be solved by having a Staff or a scroll.
Dimensional anchor. Summon monster. Teleport. Slow. See Invisibility. Identify. Stoneskin (communal). Lesser Planar Binding. Wall of Force/Stone/Fire. Waves of Fatigue. Echolocation. Passwall.
Just anything that doesn't have to do with direct combat. He's also going to do crap against golems. He'll also not be removing curse or breaking enchantment if it's needed either.
Also if you are going to try to do this I suggest Dragon's Breath over fireball or heatstroke. Slightly more damage, but much more options in energy type and attack pattern.
Aberrant Bloodline:
3rd/Enlarge Person,5th/see invisibility,7th/tongues,Black TentaclesArcane Bloodline:
3rd/identify,5th/invisibility,7th/Dispel Magic,9th/D.Door+1 Spell of choice from bloodline power
Teleport is just not there yet
Summon Monster:just not as good as taking direct actions most of the time
Slow: isn´t a must have(still good though)
See Invisibility: can be replaced by glitterdust
Identify: comes from a scroll(unless I´m of the arcane bloodline)
Stoneskin: ???I would never cast that
Wall of whatever: One wall is enough
Lesser planar Binding: might be helpfull but don´t need that
Waves of Fatigue: not a good spell
Echolocation : again glitterdust
Passwall: scroll
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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You're comparing sorcerers and Oracles?!! Mind you know that one spell of each level of those "known" spells is a cure X wounds spell. Others are gained at the cost of a curse, which in that case I'm going to start counting bloodline powers that the sorcs get. Oracles are divine casters. If you're really taking this argument, you might as well ask why Clerics have better BAB/HP than Wizards.
If my math is correct, an 8th level wizard (assuming 16 int) will have 8 first level spells, 4 second, 4 third, and 4 fourth. This is compared to the Sorcerer's 6/4/3/1 (including bloodline). Now one can argue that the flexible casting (and deeper clip) is worth that delay and less spells known, but if it is, then why does the Oracle come out ahead, both in spells known and BAB/HP?
Way to miss the point. Let me try this again.
Now back to my original statement. If spont casting is enough to delay advancement/stunt spells known, then why does the oracle get more spells known than the sorcerer? (Remember, my example above shows the wizard knows more spells w/o adding to his spellbook) It can be inferred that someone realized it wasn't enough and the Oracle's bonuses (faster, and more) were to test a compensation.
The Oracle gains bonus spells as part of a mystery, not a curse. They also gain the cure tree as part of being an oracle. They gain special abilities as part of the curse.
Given that the Cleric gets the same number of spells per day (plus domain) that the wizard does shouldn't the oracle not get the cure tree for free?
(Answer, the cure tree is a freebie to allow the oracle to be a primary healer w/o tying up those spells)
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Never said you would, now they would love it. The point is, with a Sorcerer you have to pretty much plan all your encounters while a Wizard can plan encounter by encounter if need be.Minor correction: A wizard can plan encounter by encounter when he knows in advance what those encounters are going to be and when he has learned the spells he wants for those encounters.
While acknowledging that wizards have a major edge in versatility, even setting aside questions of the sorcerer's delayed advancement, I don't think that assuming that all wizards are of the quantum variety helps the discussion in the slightest.
Schroedinger's Wizard aside, one of the reasons I enjoy sorcerers is being creative with the limited resources. I get frustrated with the 'Dangit! I had that spell but didn't memorize it!' situations (yes, a bonded item mitigates it, it still annoys me).
Blah,Blah,Blah
Human Sorcerer Level 10
1st level Spells:Mage Armor,Magic Missile,Enlarge Person,Disguise Self,Charm Person,Floating Disc2nd level Spells:Glitterdust,Protection from Evil(communal),Scorching Ray,False Life,Command Undead,Invisibility,Fog Cloud
3rd level Spells:Dispel Magic,Sleet Storm,Fireball,Heatstroke,Haste,Fly
4th level Spells:Dimension Door,Wall of Ice,Black Tentacles,Enervation
5th level Spells:Cloudkill
...now mind you,this is without the bloodline spells.
Wizard advocats, pleeeeze show me where this spell list is lacking,and what a wizard could do better,preferably a situation that comes up often and can not be solved by having a Staff or a scroll.
Dimensional anchor. Summon monster. Teleport. Slow. See Invisibility. Identify. Stoneskin (communal). Lesser Planar Binding. Wall of Force/Stone/Fire. Waves of Fatigue. Echolocation. Passwall.
Just anything that doesn't have to do with direct combat. He's also going to do crap against golems. He'll also not be removing curse or breaking enchantment if it's needed either.
Also if you are going to try to do this I suggest Dragon's Breath over fireball or heatstroke. Slightly more damage, but much more options in energy type and attack pattern.
Aberrant Bloodline:
3rd/Enlarge Person,5th/see invisibility,7th/tongues,Black TentaclesArcane Bloodline:
3rd/identify,5th/invisibility,7th/Dispel Magic,9th/D.Door+1 Spell of choice from bloodline powerTeleport is just not there yet
Summon Monster:just not as good as taking direct actions most of the time
Slow: isn´t a must have(still good though)
See Invisibility: can be replaced by glitterdust
Identify: comes from a scroll(unless I´m of the arcane bloodline)
Stoneskin: ???I would never cast that
Wall of whatever: One wall is enough
Lesser planar Binding: might be helpfull but don´t need that
Waves of Fatigue: not a good spell
Echolocation : again glitterdust
...
So basically, you're saying to play a sorcerer that's fairly competent at stuff, you have to be a specific race (human), and you may have to have specific bloodlines as well. How convenient.
Last I checked, Wizard 20 works pretty good regardless of spec. Abjurer, Enchanter, Evoker, Transmutor, Conjurerer, Diviner, Necromancer, Universalist? Yeah, all of those can learn all the spells they want, craft scrolls for when stuff is needed, craft wands for when they just wanna spam, and while I'm not a big fan of universalists they recently got so much freakin' love due to certain items allowing them to do crazy stuff.
Oh, did I mention special spell books? Like, if I have a book of harms, I can prepare some evocation spells from it and auto-maximize a spell 1/day by eating 1d4 damage per spell level. So I can turn magic missile in 25 flat damage for a lost of 3 average HP, or nuke something with a maximized fireball for 9 damage to myself, and I don't even have to change the spell level.
There's some other cute things too. σ_σ
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Ask yourself what your priority is, and let it help you choose what suits your playstyle.
Whoah!
Okay, nice catch. Thanks.
Prepared casters dominate spontaneous casters when they can prep spells knowing what they will be facing.
Prepared casters dominate spontaneous casters for crafting items.
Prepared casters dominate spontaneous casters for the obscure, rarely casted spells, because the prep-caster can cast them with their level & casting stat... spontaneous casters can't afford to waste their limited spells-known on a spell which is unlikely to ever be used, so they're stuck with scrolls/wands.
Prepared spellcasters can use quicken spell.
Spontaneous casters dominate in facing the unknown, since their limited spell choices demand high versatility-per-spell
Spontaneous casters dominate in an endurance challenge because they can pull from a spellslot pool: They worry alot less about running out of prepared spell X; they can "swap out spells" on the fly. Ask yourself what your priority is, and let it help you choose what suits your playstyle.
The only one I'd really contest (beyond noting quicken is fine for spontaneous casters these days, but that was addressed by Glendwyr) is that spontaneous casters and prepared casters generally have similar endurance if the prepared caster is played properly. At lower levels, prepared casters and spontaneous casters have little difference. By medium levels, prepared casters are very comfortable with creating their own scrolls, wands, and pearls to drastically push their endurance factor.
Sorcerers (notice I don't say bards) might pull ahead a bit in the endurance department at high levels due to the fact staffs suck buttcheeks in Pathfinder, basically meaning no wizard in their right mind is going to buy or craft one, which basically takes away the high-level version of wands that have otherwise existed since ever. Though many 3rd-4th level spells are still really good at high levels, which makes me overall uncertain. This one might be a wash.
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The biggest disadvantage for the Sorcerer is that you are at the mercy of all the encounters that come during a campaign. Now if you are lucky enough that your spell selection is in sync with the encounters then you basically rock but the Wizard has more wiggle room to mess up his spell-list than the Sorcerer or any other spontaneous caster. What good is Enervation 7/Day when you are fighting undead a lot?
The biggest disadvantage for the Sorcerer is that you are at the mercy of all the encounters that come during a campaign. Now if you are lucky enough that your spell selection is in sync with the encounters then you basically rock but the Wizard has more wiggle room to mess up his spell-list than the Sorcerer or anything other spontaneous caster. What good is Enervation 7/Day when you are fighting undead a lot?
I agree with you fully Shallowsoul. A sorcerer's limited spell selection basically makes them all or nothing. It's a crap-shoot. If your selected spell is the perfect spell for the job, then that makes you look awesome, but if it's not, then you might even end up twiddling your thumbs. For example, if you hit 6th level and finally get your 3rd level spell (a full level late), you get to choose 1 spell. Ok, so do you choose fireball, dispel magic, stinking cloud, or sleet storm? All of those might seem like fine ideas, and yet all of them are going to have cases where they are absolutely useless.
So maybe you decide to go safe and pick dispel magic because it has a lot of utility (both in and outside of combat). However, if your enemies turn out to be mostly a bunch of brutes with few magical buffs (or really minor buffs like bless or something) then it might seem underwhelming. You might decide to go blasting and choose fireball, but then it ends up more or less useless when you encounter creatures with high resistances or immunities (such as hell-hounds, fire elementals, etc). You figure that's out, so you go with stinking cloud because it's kind of cool and takes advantage of your nice Charisma for save DCs and such, but then you realize all undead, constructs, and creatures immune to poison are immune to it. So you opt for sleet storm because it is a no-save no-SR spell that has solid battlefield control opportunities, which is nice, right?
Well the wizard learned 3rd level spells a full level ago. Without even bothering to spend money to learn new ones, he actually knows all four of these spells, and can prepare 4 of them each day. For his selection, he usually prepares dispel magic x2, and stinking cloud x2, and might decide to craft a wand of sleet storm for 5,625 gp so he can happily spam it since it allows no-save and no-SR, so he doesn't mind casting it from a wand at all. He could burn 2 charges every session and it would still last him 25 sessions. He can even craft it and hand it to his familiar to spam while he's casting his "real spells".
Now I'm familiar with these boards enough to know that somebody is going to freak out, suggest that there's no time to craft a wand, or make up some odd excuse as to why the sorcerer's inability to do any of that is somehow a pro in their favor, but...well...
I agree with you, Shallowsoul. *<(o_o)>*
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If my math is correct, an 8th level wizard (assuming 16 int) will have 8 first level spells, 4 second, 4 third, and 4 fourth. This is compared to the Sorcerer's 6/4/3/1 (including bloodline). Now one can argue that the flexible casting (and deeper clip) is worth that delay and less spells known, but if it is, then why does the Oracle come out ahead, both in spells known and BAB/HP?
Maybe the Oracle comes out ahead of the Sorcerer on BAB/HP and spells for the same reasons the Cleric comes out ahead of the Wizard on the same issues (especially w/ Domains, an extra spell per spell lvl from the Domain, and Spontaneous Curing).....
I agree with you fully Shallowsoul. A sorcerer's limited spell selection basically makes them all or nothing. It's a crap-shoot. If your selected spell is the perfect spell for the job, then that makes you look awesome, but if it's not, then you might even end up twiddling your thumbs. For example, if you hit 6th level and finally get your 3rd level spell (a full level late), you get to choose 1 spell. Ok, so do you choose fireball, dispel magic, stinking cloud, or sleet storm? All of those might seem like fine ideas, and yet all of them are going to have cases where they are absolutely useless.
There are 2 things about sorcerers which help that issue
1 - you can use the 3rd level slots to cast 1st and 2nd level spells too. So if you only have 1st and 2nd level spells that work, go ahead and spam em, because you at least got more uses of them.2 - a smart sorcerer player will choose their first spell of each level, as one that has the least number of dependencies and will often be useful.
For example, the first 3rd level spell would do well with Haste or Fly. Both of these are great spells which aren't as easily marginalized as say, fireball, dispel magic, stinking cloud, or sleet storm. Even alone, when Haste has the least application, it never hurts to get all those tasty benefits (movement, AC, hit, reflex saves, bonus attack).
I'll say that a dumb wizard and a dumb sorcerer are just as skrood. Yes the wizard can adapt to the lessons from those mistakes faster, but failure sometimes means death anyway, so learning "the hard way" tends to require a new character sheet... so in that situation, the caster type is irrelevant. The point is, no matter the kind of caster you are, smart choices are pretty important; we can't assume the sorcerer player is dumb while the wizard player isn't, therefore touting the smart choice isn't fallacious.
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I'll say that a dumb wizard and a dumb sorcerer are just as skrood. Yes the wizard can adapt to the lessons from those mistakes faster, but failure sometimes means death anyway, so learning "the hard way" tends to require a new character sheet... so in that situation, the caster type is irrelevant. The point is, no matter the kind of caster you are, smart choices are pretty important; we can't assume the sorcerer player is dumb while the wizard player isn't, therefore touting the smart choice isn't fallacious.
I'm admittedly a pretty mean and nasty GM (but I love you, really ^.^"), and yet I cannot agree that failure always necessitates death. Set backs ca be common. The bad guys can win. The better part of valor is discretion, as they say. Sometimes you have to flee to fight another day. Sometimes you are driven off. Sometimes, you are forced to cut your loses and pop Teleport and try to stop the evil badguy at Phase 2 of his evil scheme as opposed to Phase 1. Sometimes the badguy might succeed and bring about his evil new world order with him sitting at the top as the self-declared god-king, while the party having been slapped in the face with failure organizes an underground resistance to topple his reign.
Failure does not always equal death. If the party is exploring a forest that is full of giant spiders, and they encounter them, are pushed back, the next time they go in the cleric might have decided to prep some anti-poison spells instead of sound burst. At the very least, they may have decided to buy some anti-toxins for their return trip. The wizard may have decided that mount might be better for leading the party so that the conjured magical steed is the one who gets stuck in the near-invisible webbing instead of the party's fighter.
With experience gained (and I mean experience, not experience-points) the party may actually reach the ancient dungeon of yore to grab the mcguffin for whatever need is there. So what happens if they reach the ancient dungeon and it's filled with traps, and a lot of obstacles with permanent invisibility? Well the party pulls back, realizes they bit off more than they can chew, and decide to try again. The fighter is a little more thorough with his 10 ft. pole, the wizard preps see invisibility, and the druid decides that entangle isn't very much use in the cramped dungeon halls, so he prepares something else instead.
Now if DEATH is the assured penalty for failure...well you're absolutely right. There's not much difference between prepared and spontaneous. Well, except for the fact the prepared caster is statistically more likely to have something available for a given situation to prevent his death, whereas if the sorcerer doesn't then he's apparently just as dead as the wizard and so his extra spells didn't matter. ಠ_ಠ
shallowsoul and Ashiel make good points. Wizards have a lot they can do.
I played a 3.5 sorcerer from 1st to 21st, and even bought a staff. Never used it once. I bought cornercase scrolls, which saw infrequent use, and still had 1st level and 2nd level scrolls that I kept and never used, after buying most of the ones in the PHB.
In fact, at high levels, I had more cash than I knew what to do with. I sometimes loaned it out to other PCs for their toys. My sorcerer was so hard to kill, and so self-sufficient, he always had a spell or two that made a difference, even when we had time limits and unusually weird enemies. Acid Arrow is great when you cast it 3 times in a row on the BBEG caster. Dead magic zones were his kryptonite, but that's true of any caster, isn't it?
I used up two knock wands (we didn't have a rogue), a protection from evil wand, and I had a lot of blast spells, addressing shapes and energy types, all from the 3.5 PHB, and nothing else. The other characters were a fighter/hunter of the dead, archer ranger and cleric. Lots of minor divine magic in that group, and CLW wands out the wazoo.
I'm sure a wizard would have done just as well, but better? It's like you already said. They share a spell list.
They fill the same role in a small party, but differently: Your skill monkey can be a rogue, bard, or something else, but you sorta need somebody with some skill points to do what the others can't. Things are harder if you don't, but the party will manage.
You also need somebody with world-bending spells from the s/w list. Things are harder if you don't, but the party will manage.
Both are fun, fairly equal, and just a matter of style. PF sorcerers are the best ever, and much more powerful than they were. So are wizards, for that matter.
Failure does not always equal death.
I agree. Hence I said "sometimes" and "tends to". So we're on the same line of thought, I'm just a bit overly dramatic, and it tainted what you read (and responded to).
I take it that the rest of my post isn't being contested?
Failure does not always equal death.I agree. Hence I said "sometimes" and "tends to". So we're on the same line of thought, I'm just a bit overly dramatic, and it tainted what you read (and responded to).
I take it that the rest of my post isn't being contested?
Correct. Though I would say a dumb wizard just needs a bit of time and a marginal amount of coin to try to fix their previous mistake. Sorcerers need levels. A core wizard can pay 15 gp to learn and scribe a new 1st level spell into their spellbook; so if they realize that tenser's floating disk isn't quite as awesome as they had hoped for their general adventuring purposes, well they can try magic missile instead. σ_σ
I have been forced to face-palm once or twice by some poor sorcerer picks though, and a lot of players rebuke any attempt at advice or help, until it's too late. I mean, yeah, wizards can totally make bone-headed spell selection choices, but they can be fixed relatively easy with a trip back to town. A sorcerer who chooses floating disk and ventriloquism as their 1st level spells is screwed for the next 2 levels at least, getting their 3rd 1st level spell at 3rd level, and god willing chooses a good one. ಠ_ಠ
A sorcerer who chooses floating disk and ventriloquism as their 1st level spells is screwed for the next 2 levels at least, getting their 3rd 1st level spell at 3rd level, and god willing chooses a good one. ಠ_ಠ
Did that really happen?
I've seen something very much like it before.A sorcerer who chooses floating disk and ventriloquism as their 1st level spells is screwed for the next 2 levels at least, getting their 3rd 1st level spell at 3rd level, and god willing chooses a good one. ಠ_ಠDid that really happen?
Should-a played a wizard. You won't make 2nd with those spells.
Don't think any spontaneous caster ever beat my dazing caster.
How about a spontaneous dazing caster?
Doesn't get the bonus to initiative. Ergo loses.Don't think any spontaneous caster ever beat my dazing caster.How about a spontaneous dazing caster?
We're back to conditionals, ergo, it's not automatic.
A sorcerer who chooses floating disk and ventriloquism as their 1st level spells is screwed for the next 2 levels at least, getting their 3rd 1st level spell at 3rd level, and god willing chooses a good one. ಠ_ಠDid that really happen?
Yes. Yes. ಠ_ಠ
Absolutely you change your spell build if you are hitting dragons vs vampires. Vampires vs trolls. Its so required that by asking the question that you are revealing that you don't get the intricacies of magic in the game.
For example, dragons have good saves, except reflex, where the save is not only not good, but it is also reduced by size penalties. So, for example a heightened dazing snapdragon fireworks will oneshot the encounter.
Against trolls, where you will be encountering more than one, you will want battlefield control spells. Personally, I go for dazing MM.
There were several questions about spont vs prepared caster and why not a blaster thread. Don't think any spontaneous caster ever beat my dazing caster.
I'm rather fond of dazing acid arrow against trolls and golems. :)
How about a spontaneous dazing caster?
Biggest problem is that your new spell slots come a level later, which means that you are going to lag behind in the metamagic department. Metamagic raises the effective spell slot level significantly. You'd have to wait until 8th level to pop a dazing magic missile without a metamagic rod, 10th level for dazing acid arrow, and 12th level for dazing fireball or similar.
Couple that with dazing spell revolves around evocation/conjuration spells the most, and most of your daily repertoire will generally revolve around damaging spells, which will more or less eat up the majority of your spells known to keep a good mix of spells; and a good dazing wizard also usually keeps some other stuff on hand as needed; and their specialization into schools like Evocation and Conjuration also serves double-duty with other stuff; and prepared casters still have usefulness during downtime, since a dazing wizard can still learn and prepare remove curse if desired and remove the curse on the party's fighter, since the party's oracle isn't a cleric and couldn't do it.
Stuff like that. <(o_o)>==彡☆ミ☆彡☆ミ☆
A sorcerer who chooses floating disk and ventriloquism as their 1st level spells is screwed for the next 2 levels at least, getting their 3rd 1st level spell at 3rd level, and god willing chooses a good one. ಠ_ಠDid that really happen?
The underdark game I'm in right now, the only spells I've seen the Sorcerer (Deep Earth bloodline) cast are
Magic Missile
Expeditious Excavation (once, and a silly use at that; bloodline spell)
Scorching Ray
Mad Monkeys (brand new and hilarious)
I ask myself: Seriously?
None of them are saving throw spells. Look at your bloodline arcana!
Why did he pick whatever else he picked if he can't find a reason to cast them in 8 game sessions?
Why don't you ever use Tremor, which is actually really good for a spam ability? I can think of a dozen times he used magic missile for nickel & dime, when Tremor would have made a huge difference.
So yes, there are players who ... lack understanding of their own characters. Last game session he complained that the rest of us are exceptional and he's ho-hum. It's only true because of his choices... I mean I'm a Rogue, and outshining a Deep Earth Sorcerer in an Underdark campaign... what's wrong with this picture? Even my character's slave (another PC) who's a Monk, is getting more shiny time. When the Monk and Rogue are outshining you, re-examine some stuff.
A sorcerer who chooses floating disk and ventriloquism as their 1st level spells is screwed for the next 2 levels at least, getting their 3rd 1st level spell at 3rd level, and god willing chooses a good one. ಠ_ಠDid that really happen?The underdark game I'm in right now, the only spells I've seen the Sorcerer (Deep Earth bloodline) cast are
Magic Missile
Expeditious Excavation (once, and a silly use at that; bloodline spell)
Scorching Ray
Mad Monkeys (brand new and hilarious)I ask myself: Seriously?
None of them are saving throw spells. Look at your bloodline arcana!
Why did he pick whatever else he picked if he can't find a reason to cast them in 8 game sessions?
Why don't you ever use Tremor, which is actually really good for a spam ability? I can think of a dozen times he used magic missile for nickel & dime, when Tremor would have made a huge difference.So yes, there are players who ... lack understanding of their own characters. Last game session he complained that the rest of us are exceptional and he's ho-hum. It's only true because of his choices... I mean I'm a Rogue, and outshining a Deep Earth Sorcerer in an Underdark campaign... what's wrong with this picture? Even my character's slave (another PC) who's a Monk, is getting more shiny time. When the Monk and Rogue are outshining you, re-examine some stuff.
With a masterwork magnifying glass. (>Ō_o)
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Should-a played a wizard. You won't make 2nd with those spells.I've seen something very much like it before.A sorcerer who chooses floating disk and ventriloquism as their 1st level spells is screwed for the next 2 levels at least, getting their 3rd 1st level spell at 3rd level, and god willing chooses a good one. ಠ_ಠDid that really happen?
Never said I made that mistake. I just watched someone else do it... I agree with your assessment of that poor fool's chances though.
:P
Should-a played a wizard. You won't make 2nd with those spells.I've seen something very much like it before.A sorcerer who chooses floating disk and ventriloquism as their 1st level spells is screwed for the next 2 levels at least, getting their 3rd 1st level spell at 3rd level, and god willing chooses a good one. ಠ_ಠDid that really happen?Never said I made that mistake. I just watched someone else do it... I agree with your assessment of that poor fool's chances though.
:P
It's almost worse watching others do it. Like watching a proverbial train wreck right before your eyes. It's like...
(O.O).。o○(!?)
<(O_O)>.。o○(No! Wait, stop! Dooooo--!)
(>.<)
(>.O)>
(>o_o)>.。o○(I better go get a broom...)
Better, better, really? are you sure?
Who cares about better? In this question there is no better.
I care about what fits my character design, it could be either but I'll make that choice for each individual character.
He's also going to do crap against golems.Human Sorcerer Level 10
1st level Spells:Mage Armor,Magic Missile,Enlarge Person,Disguise Self,Charm Person,Floating Disc2nd level Spells:Glitterdust,Protection from Evil(communal),Scorching Ray,False Life,Command Undead,Invisibility,Fog Cloud
3rd level Spells:Dispel Magic,Sleet Storm,Fireball,Heatstroke,Haste,Fly
4th level Spells:Dimension Door,Wall of Ice,Black Tentacles,Enervation
5th level Spells:Cloudkill
Not really. Haste, Fly, Enlarge Person, Wall of Ice, Black Tentacles, Dimension Door, Invisibility... He's not likely to personally kill a golem, but as part of a team he'd be able to contribute.
(And yes, I am replying to a post from eighteen months ago. So what?)
He's also going to do crap against golems.Human Sorcerer Level 10
1st level Spells:Mage Armor,Magic Missile,Enlarge Person,Disguise Self,Charm Person,Floating Disc2nd level Spells:Glitterdust,Protection from Evil(communal),Scorching Ray,False Life,Command Undead,Invisibility,Fog Cloud
3rd level Spells:Dispel Magic,Sleet Storm,Fireball,Heatstroke,Haste,Fly
4th level Spells:Dimension Door,Wall of Ice,Black Tentacles,Enervation
5th level Spells:Cloudkill
Not really. Haste, Fly, Enlarge Person, Wall of Ice, Black Tentacles, Dimension Door, Invisibility... He's not likely to personally kill a golem, but as part of a team he'd be able to contribute.
(And yes, I am replying to a post from eighteen months ago. So what?)
Fly + Sleet Storm + Black Tentacles will EVENTUALLY get the job done.
I would rather have a gnome illusion focused sorcerer who just ignores the encounter, or a summoning focused sorcerer who just unleashes the horde.
For all of those who are hating on the sorcererand his lack of spells. I would like to remind all of you that a socerer has UMD as a class skill and has a high Cha score most likely (Unless he went Sage to get a high int instead or the other bloodline that lets you use Wis). Most of the spells people are mentioning are missing are the utility spells that you don't need often. So... put it in a wand. BAM!
Oh and I don't know about you guys, but I often take up the Shadow Spells as a sorcerer. The ability of having a single spell act as a bunch of different spells help alot. Additionally you can get really cheesy with shadow conjuration.