I don't understand where all the fighter haste comes from. The fighter is probably the single most versatile class out there because there are so many builds that one can make from a fighter. Be they the common board and sword, two-weapon fighters, ranged type fighters, grapple experts, etc...
Why do they even need haste, and who keeps casting it on them?
Haste makes waste.
Why all the haste hate? It's like, the best spell in the game.
Maybe if the game was D&D and the edition was 3.0.
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Why all the haste hate? It's like, the best spell in the game.
If your party is all melee.
Okay, when CAN'T a caster use a +1 to attack, AC, and Reflex, along with +30 to ALL move speeds?
why do you need all that in order to buff fighters?
hey, wait a minute... are you suggesting there are other uses for spellcasters?
More damage is always better.
Okay, when CAN'T a caster use a +1 to attack, AC, and Reflex, along with +30 to ALL move speeds?
Those are things, as a caster, I will almost never need.
Attack rolls? What are those?AC? I don't rely on AC.
Reflex saves? Most things that cause reflex saves are inconsequential to me.
+30 to all move speeds? Meh. I can live with 60 feet of fly speed, thanks.
To get these things that don't particularly help what I want to do, I have to use an action in combat. If I don't use the first round my team doesn't get nearly the benefit from it that they ought to. It also happens that the first round is the most important to go on the offensive with SoS/SoL spells. So the question becomes are there enough non-casters (i.e. melee or dps) in the party to make it worthwhile, considering the alternative is to severely hamper the opposition, possibly debuffing them to a degree greater than haste is a buff for my team.
Factor in players with boots of speed or speed weapons and it loses significant value. It's still solid...if you have the melee to take advantage of it, and the bonuses won't be redundant. I would not cast haste if there were only 1 melee in a group of 4-6. If there were 2 I might, and 3 definitely, but it's not a non-choice, and thus isn't the best spell in the game.
Haste doesn't do much for my Paladin/Sorcerer, who just uses touch attacks. Then again, he's not a fighter (though he is frontline melee).
I don't understand where all the fighter haste comes from. The fighter is probably the single most versatile class out there because there are so many builds that one can make from a fighter. Be they the common board and sword, two-weapon fighters, ranged type fighters, grapple experts, etc...
Why do they even need haste, and who keeps casting it on them?
Well haste just generally makes them all around better. They can also get it in the form of magic items. The most common version is boots of speed, but other items could exist.
For the record, perma-haste on a magic item costs 120,000 gp. Too expensive to be worthwhile, but it's fun to dream. :P
Let's bring 3.0 haste back!
3.0 haste was pretty awesome. +4 to hit, +4 to AC, doubled your movement speed, granted an extra standard or move action. God that spell was wonderful. Single target though, but oh so worth it. People complained because it let casters cast faster, but who the hell cares? They already nerfed quicken from a free action to a swift action. :P
Being able to move + full attack was a godsend. Haste was more of a staple for martials in 3E than it is in 3.5/PF. Haste was like the 3rd level enlarge person. It was that spell that if you were melee you absolutely positively wanted this spell. In fact, most casters wanted that spell too. Everyone liked haste! Boots of speed were awesomesauce!
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Words of Power accelerate is the Busch Beer of haste.
3.0 haste was pretty awesome. +4 to hit, +4 to AC, doubled your movement speed, granted an extra standard or move action. God that spell was wonderful. Single target though, but oh so worth it. People complained because it let casters cast faster, but who the hell cares? They already nerfed quicken from a free action to a swift action. :P
Being able to move + full attack was a godsend. Haste was more of a staple for martials in 3E than it is in 3.5/PF. Haste was like the 3rd level enlarge person. It was that spell that if you were melee you absolutely positively wanted this spell. In fact, most casters wanted that spell too. Everyone liked haste! Boots of speed were awesomesauce!
And everyone still likes Haste! Personally I'm of the opinion that Haste is the best bang-for-your-buck spell in the game.
So? You get them for free. That whole '1 target per caster level' thing.Okay, when CAN'T a caster use a +1 to attack, AC, and Reflex, along with +30 to ALL move speeds?Those are things, as a caster, I will almost never need.
As I've outlined, but you've clearly ignored, is that it is not "free". It takes a 3rd level spell slot and an action in combat.
Not to say that Haste isn't a good or even a great spell, especially for its level, but its usefulness is only in proportion to how many melee are in your party when you cast it. As a player I have absolutely no problem using a slot and an action to cast Haste ASAP when the situation warrants it, but since the only significant benefit is for damage dealers to do more damage there are more situations when something else would be better.
In other words, in my experience, its benefits are narrow enough that far more often than not I'm better off casting something else, which puts it out of the running for "best spell in the game" which is all I was really objecting to.
I just standing broad jumped over a ten foot pit, moved another 5 feet, and critted a goblin with my bastard sword.
THANX, HASTE!!!
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As I've outlined, but you've clearly ignored, is that it is not "free". It takes a 3rd level spell slot and an action in combat.
Every spell costs a slot and action, making that irrelevant.
In other words, in my experience, its benefits are narrow enough that far more often than not I'm better off casting something else, which puts it out of the running for "best spell in the game" which is all I was really objecting to.
And I was going on the actual benefits of the spell itself, of which it grants far more than most other spells I can think of. Sure, it doesn't help charm the king, but charm doesn't help cross a chasm, so I feel safe in ruling out situations stacked for or against specific spells.
Charm helps cross the chasm of friendlessness.
Not that I care; I'm Chaotic Neutral.
And I was going on the actual benefits of the spell itself, of which it grants far more than most other spells I can think of. Sure, it doesn't help charm the king, but charm doesn't help cross a chasm, so I feel safe in ruling out situations stacked for or against specific spells.
i don't know. if you drop haste on the king when he and his guard have been ambushed i reckon he'll probably be a bit friendlier towards you.
Charm helps cross the chasm of friendlessness.
Not that I care; I'm Chaotic Neutral.
Chaotic Neutral can't be charming? Look at Captain Jack Sparrow!
Chaotic Neutral can't be charming? Look at Captain Jack Sparrow!Charm helps cross the chasm of friendlessness.
Not that I care; I'm Chaotic Neutral.
That's Disney chaotic neutral, which is watered down for the masses.
The closest equivalent to IRL alignment ischaotic stupid with erratic tendancies.
It's the Keystone Beer of chaotic neutral.
At B.A.R.D. we don't make fighters. We make fighters better. B.A.R.D.: The spirit of innovation.
I am SO putting this on a T-Shirt!
For the record, perma-haste on a magic item costs 120,000 gp. Too expensive to be worthwhile, but it's fun to dream. :P
Considering all that it gives you, that sounds like a perfectly reasonable price to me.
For the record, perma-haste on a magic item costs 120,000 gp. Too expensive to be worthwhile, but it's fun to dream. :PConsidering all that it gives you, that sounds like a perfectly reasonable price to me.
this discussion has been done before. it takes a 750 gp potion, a level 16 alchemist, and two discoveries. the catch is that there are better uses for the slot than permenent haste.
Yeah. I might consider the 120,000 gp price tag if it were the single-target 3E Haste which granted a +4 bonus to hit, a +4 dodge to AC and Reflex saves, double movement speed, and an extra standard or move action each round. That would be worthwhile, I think, as a continuous effect for 120,000 gp (that's about 1/7th a 20th level PC's entire WBL).
+1 attack, +1 to AC and Ref, and +30 ft. speed?
Pfft. I'd be better off with a few trinkets that could do that waaaaaay cheaper.
What about the divine cousin Blessing of Fervor? Everyone talks about haste, but BoF is left alone in the corner... Poor poor Bof :*-(
BoF - cause clerics and oracles can haste, too! Well kind of...
;-P
BoF a spell one level higher that can't compare with haste.
What about the divine cousin Blessing of Fervor? Everyone talks about haste, but BoF is left alone in the corner... Poor poor Bof :*-(
BoF - cause clerics and oracles can haste, too! Well kind of...
;-P
Blessing of Fervor is like the soy burger version of haste. It's like eating a Baked Lays or something.
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Haste slapped Blessing of Fervor in the mouf and told him to fiss him a sammich!
I thought all the fighter haste was because they really have to hustle to stay relevant at higher levels, when all the spellcasters rule and fighters drool.
Nualia's +2 bastard sword:
* 1H: atk +20+15, dmg 1d10+13; Power Attack: -3 atk = +6 dmg; 17-20/ x2
* 2H w/buckler: atk +19+14, dmg 1d10+17; -1 AC; Power Attack: -3 atk = +9 dmg; 17-20/ x2
9th level.....still relevant.
The drooling is caused by the rabid dog that is blooddrunkenness.
What about the divine cousin Blessing of Fervor? Everyone talks about haste, but BoF is left alone in the corner... Poor poor Bof :*-(
BoF - cause clerics and oracles can haste, too! Well kind of...
;-P
Blessing of Fervor is like the soy burger version of haste. It's like eating a Baked Lays or something.
Hm, it was intended to be more of a side remark. I do not really think BoF is bad, in fact it is one of my most often cast spells as a cleric :-) It's great advantage is its flexibility and its usefulness not only to fighters but also to casters. The higher spell level cost is justified IMO.
But haste is and remains one of the best spells in the game :-)
Well you see ghost haste is a lot like jello pudding pops.
Well you see ghost haste is a lot like jello pudding pops.
Why do I suddenly think of PacMan!? :-P
What about the divine cousin Blessing of Fervor? Everyone talks about haste, but BoF is left alone in the corner... Poor poor Bof :*-(
BoF - cause clerics and oracles can haste, too! Well kind of...
;-P
Blessing of Fervor is like the soy burger version of haste. It's like eating a Baked Lays or something.
Hm, it was intended to be more of a side remark. I do not really think BoF is bad, in fact it is one of my most often cast spells as a cleric :-) It's great advantage is its flexibility and its usefulness not only to fighters but also to casters. The higher spell level cost is justified IMO.
But haste is and remains one of the best spells in the game :-)
I know; I was just goofing. My cleric buffs up the Buff of Fervor when the BBEG finally shows up.