In what context? Why would you do this?
I'd say no. And why would you want to?
Alarm bells go off in my head when players ask if they can do something that sounds like it would be to their detriment but outside the rules.
Almost always they have found, or think they have found, an obscure rules loophole and are hoping to use and abuse it.
I would say no. Except in the case you are a sorcerer or bard and are using metamagic.
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Sure you can. You spend a move action to make the wrong mystic gestures, then a standard action to make the right mystic gestures. Now you've spent a full round casting the spell! :p
In other news, I join the chorus of "Why?"
It's not RAW, and I too wonder why?
The reason I might see is that you want to cast it as a full-round spell, so that it goes of at the beginning of your next turn, allowing two spell effects on the same turn.
If someone wanted to do that in my game, I'd allow it, unless I thought the player wanted to misuse it. I'd say that "okay, you can do that - for now, on test. But if I find that it alters game balance or allows for abuse, we'll change it back to RAW".
If you're a spontaneous caster, you could apply a metamagic feat to your spell!
If you really want to cast the exact same spell, you can always use Heighten Spell with an increase of 0. Metamagic length with no benefit.
I'd allow it for roleplaying reasons, but not for loophole-engaging ones.
That is:
'Old Blacky the wizard here has spoken the words to a pretty horrible spell... except for the last one. Now, he can sit there holding that last syllable on the tip of his tongue for a while, but in a minute he's gonna get tired and finish it. And that spell is gonna hit you then. Unless you talk first.'
Would be a cool and something I'd allow.
But if it was 'If I can make these two spells go off simultaneously, I break the universe!' (or whatever), then that's just cheesy and I'd say no.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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If you're a spontaneous caster, you could apply a metamagic feat to your spell!If you really want to cast the exact same spell, you can always use Heighten Spell with an increase of 0. Metamagic length with no benefit.
Not sure if I'd allow that, since you're not really heightening anything. Some GMs might allow it though.
Couldn't you just emulate that with a delayed or readied action?
I'll take a guess as to why...
If it has a 1 round cast time, then the spell goes off immediately at the start of your next turn, leaving you with a whole round of actions. So...say the spell in question had no verbal components (or you used silent spell/rod) and you were hidden from an enemy and wanted to..."supersize" your surprise round upon initiating combat.
I'm sure there's other uses, but 99% likely center upon the fact that it lets you get off a spell effect and still get your normal actions for that turn.
I would not allow this.
Its still not giving you any more actions than normal. And unless everyone else is gonna give up their surprise round your not gaining anything except the chance of losing the spell to damage.
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Imagine a sorcerer-1/rogue-X with Vanish.
Casting the spell as a standard action means you're going to be invisible for one move action (assuming you move after casting).
(Casting in the surprise round and you don't even get that!)
Casting as a full round action, means you get a move *and* a standard action while invisible, and that will be *very* useful to you.
Richard
Or you could just be a Ninja with Vanishing Trick...
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Note: Spontaneously casting a metamagic'ed spell won't help you in this case, since it only increases the casting time to a full round action (rather than 1 round, which is what you seem to be after).
Really though, if you're looking to stick with rogue over ninja, you're better off taking the major magic rogue talent rather than multiclassing.
You can get it by 3rd level, at which point you'll be invisible for three rounds rather than 1. It's only twice per day, but as a Sorcerer 1 you'd have it, what, three times per day?
Or get a ring of invisibility, or Ring of Vanish or some other item that lets you do that, or a scroll/wand and use UMD to use it. Or potions.
But no, there's no way to artificially increase the casttime. Why? Because it can lead to really broken stuff. YOur example might not be too bad, especially when you consider that to repeat this, you have to give up every second round, but there might be spellcombos that are way overpowered.
So in other words, as a GM I MIGHT allow you this combination of spells as a full round spell, but would need to sanction all other spells that you want to prolong seperately.
And your wasting two rounds to set up for what one sneak attack?
Also don't effects that last in rounds count down at the start of your turn. If so then your actully getting nothing from doing this since you cast it then your turn starts and its over.
Talonhawke, I think that would mean summon monsters at CL 1 don't do anything. I know what rule you're speaking of, but I'm not sure if it applies.
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You get other things with sorcerer too, you know, like a load of melee touch attacks if you go for aquatic or shadow.
But anyway, yes, that would be the idea.
A spell that takes 1 round to cast comes into effect at the beginning of your turn next round, and last as long as any spell you cast during your initiative on that round (i.e. until the initiative count comes round again 1 or more rounds later).
So, sure, you set up a sneak attack, and as a second level character you can do this with a sorcerous dehydrating touch attack (without needing to make the concentation check 'cos you're invisible) which does 2d6 + 1 non-lethal damage and possibly one round of sickening.
I think that's pretty good, myself. Since that sort of damage doesn't decrease with size you can make your character a halfling (+1 to-hit/ and AC), and you've also got some other sorcerous options like Ray of Frost / Acid Splash / Chill Touch and so on, plus access to lots of wands.
Richard
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@Richard,
I know it can be exciting when you think you've found a cool strategy, but really, you're basing this off of a rule that technically doesn't exist. Any GM would be well within his rights to say that no, you can't do this.
If you want to go rogue/sorceror, go for it. There's plenty of great stuff you can pull off with that combination (sneak attack with spells, Shadow Strike/Obscuring Mist, etc.) Just don't build your character around this specific trick.
That said, I looked up the rules for Vanish, and I don't think you even need to do it this way. From the way I'm reading this, even if your CL is 1, you'd cast Vanish as your standard action and be invisible for your entire turn next round.
Also, we know attacking cancels your invisibility, but does it cancel it fast enough for your opponent to not be flat-footed? Does the invisibility fade soon enough for the target to see the dagger coming, or do you attack and then become visible?
Its still not giving you any more actions than normal. And unless everyone else is gonna give up their surprise round your not gaining anything except the chance of losing the spell to damage.
You'd do this to get off two offensive spells in the surprise round. If you're beyond the enemy's perception and can cast w/o making a sound, you could buff or whatever as much as you want. You'd do this to toss two offensive spells at the enemies in the surprise round before they have a chance to respond.
You'd do this to get off two offensive spells in the surprise round. If you're beyond the enemy's perception and can cast w/o making a sound, you could buff or whatever as much as you want. You'd do this to toss two offensive spells at the enemies in the surprise round before they have a chance to respond.
And how would you do that? Surprise rounds are limited to a standard action only. You could spend that standard action to start casting a full-round or 1 round casting time spell, but that requires you to finish casting by spending a 2nd standard action in the following round. But since you used a standard action in that 2nd round, you can't cast a normal spell in that round.
The only way to cast 2 spells in the surprise round is to cast a standard action spell, and a quickened spell.
You'd do this to get off two offensive spells in the surprise round. If you're beyond the enemy's perception and can cast w/o making a sound, you could buff or whatever as much as you want. You'd do this to toss two offensive spells at the enemies in the surprise round before they have a chance to respond.And how would you do that? Surprise rounds are limited to a standard action only. You could spend that standard action to start casting a full-round or 1 round casting time spell, but that requires you to finish casting by spending a 2nd standard action in the following round. But since you used a standard action in that 2nd round, you can't cast a normal spell in that round.
The only way to cast 2 spells in the surprise round is to cast a standard action spell, and a quickened spell.
Because it wouldn't be a surprise round until you actually attacked? Have none of your DMs ever had an NPC/monster wait in hiding or in a nearby room buffing up or summoning back up? IME if someone's unnoticed, there is no combat/initiative/surprise round until he is discovered, makes himself known, or attacks. Otherwise he can just hang out and do non offensive/revealing stuff as long as he wants.
Also, we know attacking cancels your invisibility, but does it cancel it fast enough for your opponent to not be flat-footed? Does the invisibility fade soon enough for the target to see the dagger coming, or do you attack and then become visible?
a) Flat footed and "loses its dex bonus" are two different things. Flat Footed also causes you to lose the dex bonus, but there's some more to it, like the inability to perform AoOs. It's very similar but still different. Invisibility causes the target to lose the dex bonus not become flat footed.
b) He loses the dex bonus against the first attack you do that round, then invisibility is broken and he has the dex against all other attacks that round, so you get sneak attack only on that first attack, unless there's other factors that allow it, like you're flanking as well for example.It's not a very reliable trick for rogues to get sneak attack. I would say its best use it to become invisible and then move over the battlefield into a good flanking position with another melee fighter without getting mauled by AoOs on the way and not having to use acrobatics and move at half speed.
And you can do that very well with the RAW. Vanish as a standard action, move yourself into flanking as a move action, then next round full attack the sucker for sneak attack on all attacks.