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Hey there!
I am about to start playing a summoner (with eidolon!) and I know of all the issues and things that make it hard to make a legal one.
Thus I would appreciate some feedback on the following eidolon and a few questions.
EIDOLON (level 1)
Base form: Quadruped
STR: 14 (base 14)
DEX: 14 (base 14)
CON: 13 (base 13)
INT: 7 (base 7)
WIS: 10 (base 10)
CHA: 11 (base 11)
HP: 1d10 + 1 (con) + 1 (favored class ability)
Size: M
Speed: 40ft (20 + legs (10) + legs (10))
AC: 14 (base 10 + 2 dex + 2 natural armor)
Saves: Fort: +3 (+2 base +1 con), Reflex: +4 (+2 base +2 dex), Will: +0
BAB: +1 (base +1)
Special abilities: Darkvision, share spells, link
4 extra class skills: Survival, Swim, Use Magic Device, Acrobatics
Skill ranks: Perception (1), Stealth (1), Survival (1), Swim (1)
Feat: No clue! Suggestions? The extra evolution seems sort of a waste at higher levels
Evolutions:
- Bite (From quadruped)
- Legs (x2) (From quadruped)
- Gore (2 pts)
- Claws (1 pt)
Attacks: 3 (potentially 4, but since I have a 3 max as a level 1 eidolon)
All primary so they all get attack: +3 (+1 BaB, +2 STR) and damage: die + 2 (+2 STR)
Question: Why would anyone take hooves except for flavour. They are secondary attacks and claws cost the same, do the same, work the same, but are primary weapons.
Any help would be appreciated!
To answer the hoof question, Trample
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I didn't know the max attack limit worked like that. You are correct though.
I'll change claws to pounce for now. Thanks for the tip.
The feat I did know, stupid me. You are correct.
Are there other 'paths' to take besides power attack? The thing is that I always feel like I need to decide on the entire feat path before I choose even the first one or end up unpractical.
Man, just with pounce you are making every other martial useless. I wouldn't sweat unoptimality.
A wide array of philosophies and opinions exist on proper eidolon evoluting, and while none are necessarily wrong, some are more right than others. I play a Master Summoner which wouldn't be of use to you, but one of my favorite recurring villians is a wicked female half-elven summoner of the more traditional type with a very combat focused eidolon.
I personally am not a huge fan of eidolon's attak bonus, so I don't take Power Attack and I take Weapon Focus: Claws. Her eidolon is intended to protect her at all costs, so I gave him Combat Reflexes and Standstill. Standstill combined with the Large and Push evolutions can make for a potent defender.
At any rate, here is his evolution path using those considerations:
1st Weapon Focus: Claws
3rd Toughness
6th Combat Reflexes
9th Standstill
11th Improved Critical: Claws
14th Lightning Reflexes
17th Iron Will
19th Great Fortitude
I took Improved Critical: Claws because he will eventually have six claw attacks per round. I boost his damage output with Energy Attack: Claws (Acid) and Rend.
All-in-all he's a very potent combatant and at higher levels has the side advantage of granting her Spell Resistance via the Greater Aspect class feature. If you'd like to see the evolutionary and feat builds at any particular level, just let me know.
Here's his stat block at 1st level:
Strength 16, Dexterity 14, Constitution 13
Evolutions: (4)
Bite (F), Limbs - Legs (F), Limbs – Legs (F), Claws (1), Improved Natural Armor (1), Ability Score Increase – Strength (2)
Special Abilities:
Darkvision 60’, Telepathic Link, Life Link, Share Spells
Feats:
Weapon Focus – Claws
Combat:
AC – 14, HP – 11 (1d10+1), Initiative +2, Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +0
Attacks: Bite +4 (1d6+3) / Claw +5 (1d4+3) / Claw +5(1d4+3)
And here it is at 20th level:
Strength 30, Dexterity 20, Constitution 20
Evolutions: (35)
Greater Aspect - Spell Resistance: 31, Improved Natural Armor x2
(That's on top of the +4 AC and saves provided by Greater Shield Ally at 12th level)
Bite (F), Limbs - Legs (F), Limbs – Legs (F), Arms (2), Claws x3 (3), Improved Natural Armor x5 (5), Energy Attacks – Acid (2), Acid Resistance (1), Pounce (1), Rend (2), Push – Claws (1), Extra Damage – Claws (1), Magic Attacks (1), Large (4), Damage Resistance 10/Good (5), Spell Resistance: 31 (4)
Special Abilities:
Darkvision 60’, Telepathic Link, Life Link, Share Spells, Evasion, Improved Evasion, Armor Bonus (+16), Ability Score Increase – Constitution +1 x3, Devotion, Multiattack
Feats:
Weapon Focus – Claws, Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical – Claws, Standstill, Toughness, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, Great Fortitude
Combat:
AC – 42, DR 10/Good, SR: 31, HP – 184 (15d10+90), Initiative +5, Fort +15, Ref +16, Will +7
Attacks: Bite +24(1d8+1d6+10) / Claw +25(1d8+1d6+10) / Claw +25(1d8+1d6+10) / Claw +25(1d8+1d6+10) / Claw +25(1d8+1d6+10) / Claw +25(1d8+1d6+10) / Claw +25(1d8+1d6+10)
That's all unbuffed of course with no magic items of his own. Mage Armor, Heroism, Greater Heroism, Haste, etc. all obviously up the ante.
Remember that half-elves get the favored class option of adding 1/4 of an evolution point every level, which equals 5 extra evolution points to work with by 20 level.
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@Wiggz: Impressive! Thanks for the tips.
We actually had our first session last night. This is what I ran with:
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Luna EIDOLON (level 1)
Base form: Quadruped
STR: 14 (base 14)
DEX: 14 (base 14)
CON: 13 (base 13)
INT: 7 (base 7)
WIS: 10 (base 10)
CHA: 11 (base 11)
HP: 1d10 + 1 (con) + 1 (favored class ability)
Size: M
Speed: 40ft (20 + legs (10) + legs (10))
AC: 16 (base 10 +2 dex +2 natural armor +2 improved natural armor)
AC - Touch: 12 (base 10 +2 dex)
AC - Flat-footed: 14 (base 10 +2 natural armor +2 imrproved natural armor)
Init: +2 (dex +2)
Saves: Fort: +3 (+2 base +1 con), Reflex: +4 (+2 base +2 dex), Will: +0
BAB: +1
CMB: +3 (+1 BaB +2 str)
CMD: 15 (base 10 +1 BaB +2 str +2 dex)
Special abilities: Darkvision, share spells, link
4 extra class skills: Survival, Swim, Escape Artist, Acrobatics
Skill ranks: Perception (1), Stealth (1), Survival (1), Swim (1)
Perception +4
Stealth: +6
Survival: +4
Swim: +6
Feat: Power Attack
ATTACKS
Without power attack
Bite +3 (1d6+2), 2 claws +3 (1d4+2)
With power attack
Bite +2 (1d6+4), 2 claws +3 (1d4+4)
Evolutions:
- Bite (From quadruped)
- Legs (x2) (From quadruped)
- Pounce (1 pt)
- Claws (1 pt)
- Improved natural armor (1 pt)
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She managed to trash 4 or 5 goblins, among which the shaman of the tribe, singlehandedly. Her charge is absolutely killer and her AC was 20 most of the time due to mage armor. I didn't even roll for her HP yet, because she didn't get hit.
She is still legal right?
Also -- an eidolon does not get a favored class bonus to hit points (or to anything else, for that matter).
It is a favored class bonus for a human summoner (+1 hp to eidolon, page 23).
-- david
Papa.DRB
There are also a couple of problems with the hit points. An eidolon's class is "outsider", which is not a PC class. That means that he does not get to max out his first hit die (unless your DM is feeling generous, since you could theoretically roll the maximum on the hit die) and he definitely does not get a favored class bonus. So the maximum hit points your eidolon can possibly have would be 11.
Ah -- that was the problem. There was no information given about the summoner, so I didn't factor that in.
Also, things will get interesting around 4th level, when your summoner can learn the "Lesser Evolution Surge" spell. Then you get to choose between evolutions that your eidolon has all the time and evolutions that you give it just before combat.
Also, things will get interesting around 4th level, when your summoner can learn the "Lesser Evolution Surge" spell. Then you get to choose between evolutions that your eidolon has all the time and evolutions that you give it just before combat.
This is very true - its nice being able to give your eddy the ability to fly or immunity to heat or cold whenever you need to...
Yeah, really can't stress enough how amazing Evolution Surge is.
And as for leveling off in power in a few levels: Yes... sort of. Depends on the build.
My level 12 Eidolon has AC 32 (36 with mage armor) and 17 attacks...with pounce.
(Quadruped with his natural bite, claws, hooves and Limbs-arms x 6, wields 12 weapons)
But the BAB does level off, etc. His attack bonus is not amazing.
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I just want to point out, many players do not know the rules for charge. They think they can charge through allies, they cannot. They think all they need is a clear skinny straight line to the enermy, they actually need an entire clear path the width of the character charging.
The lack of full hit dice(keeping bab lower than a Ftr) and a mediocre str serverly decreases how often you can depend on the quadruped or serpent to hit. Turn on power attack and you are hoping for high rolls. For this reason I prefer the biped for better strength. Add weapon focus, evolutions enhancing strength, magic items enhancing strength/attack and you should hit much more often. If you do not hit, you do no damage at all. I admit I find my eidolon is now sometimes hitting on a roll of a 2 but I rather hit often early than hope for high dice rolls. I could always take power attack at a later level if I want, maybe mine will.
Consider buying the eidolon equipment like:
amulet of mighty fists
Strength belt
The ioun stone that grants +1 to attacks/saves, a cheap cracked one is in the pathfinder society soft cover seekers of secrets
A winning combo is reach on the bite with trip and combat reflexes!!!!
They move through a threatened square and if you hit/trip, they now have to spend another move action just to get up. That also provokes again, making use of, combat reflexes (but you cannot trip again because they are considered to already be on the ground[+4att] when that attack strikes). Because they spend a move to get to you and another to stand, they cannot attack you this turn. Remember combat ref allows you to make aoo even when you are still flatfooted. Make sure to read the rules on reach and how they determin cover(as a ranged weapon), because cover prevents making an aoo. Also, if you enlarge the eidolon, you can choose which of it's four squares to attack from(determin cover from).
Don't forget to treat the eidolon as a character as well. Even if you want to run him as having no personality, you can really play up the emotionless aspect like he is an android or something. You can find another thread recently begun about how people play their eidolons. I saw some funny stuff there. A few not so funny but still good ideas in their own right.
I like that you asked for help. It helps us reduce the numbers of people who complain that the class is broken. Some of them do so because they don't know how it works within the rules and cannot be bothered to do an audit and fix what was wrong.
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And there's no need to get gore right away. "Extra evolution" is also a summoner feat, not an evo; and a great feat if your summoner is a support caster (those extra points add up). Pick up gore once you get your 4th attack; evos you can change EVERY level.
For quads I usually recommend getting pounce and the Dragon Stance. This involves the first two feats of Improved Unarmed Strike and Dragon Stance; IUS is a waste, but lets you go into the improved grapple and such later. Dragon Stance just takes care of the major issue of pouncing; in the sense it lets you charge through allied squares. Also makes that first hit do some extra damage.
Eidilon first buy is Amulet of Mighty fists, usually. Basically eventually saves the summoner a 3rd level slot and a charge off a wand of lesser extender.
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That Dagon style looks great with pounce. The chance to use elemental fist looks nice to. Add those together and that can take one target off the map quick marking the west of the fight so much easier. I am still not so sure the benefits are worth the heavy feat tax but it looks worth a heavy consideration. I do wonder about that elemental fist. Since the eidolon is not really a class, I am guessing it should be based on hit dice if people take elemental fist as well.
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Oh I do know how to charge. My eidolon just got the initiative a lot and was lucky to charge in. So far loving it.
I like this dragon stance concept as well. The main reason I went for quadruped is that I will be able to use the mount evolution on her. Can't do that on a biped if I am correct.
Interesting item options as well. I like it. :)
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Greetings once again Paizo forums!
You have all been quite useful.
I have now leveled to level 2! This also upgrade Luna to a level 2 eidolon.
I could use another look through for those that like to do that to see if she is legal again.
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Luna EIDOLON (level 2)
Base form: Quadruped
STR: 15 (base 14 + 1)
DEX: 15 (base 14 + 1)
CON: 13 (base 13)
INT: 7 (base 7)
WIS: 10 (base 10)
CHA: 11 (base 11)
HP: 2d10 + 2 (con) + 2 (favored class ability)
HP: 10 (nog 1d10 rollen voor hp) (8 lvl1, 2+1d10 lvl2)
Size: M
Speed: 40ft (20 + legs (10) + legs (10))
AC: 18 (base 10 +2 dex +4 natural armor (2 base, 2 level) +2 improved natural armor)
AC - Touch: 12 (base 10 +2 dex)
AC - Flat-footed: 16 (base 10 +2 natural armor +2 improved natural armor)
Init: +2 (dex +2)
Saves: Fort: +4 (+3 base +1 con), Reflex: +5 (+3 base +2 dex), Will: +0
BAB: +2
CMB: +4 (+2 BaB +2 str)
CMD: 16 (base 10 +2 BaB +2 str +2 dex)
Special abilities: Darkvision, share spells, link, evasion
base class skills: bluff, craft, knowledge: planes, perception, sense motive, stealth
4 extra class skills: Survival, Swim, Escape Artist, Acrobatics
Skill points: 8
Skill ranks: Acrobatics (1), Escape Artist (1), Perception (2), Stealth (2), Survival (1), Swim (1)
Acrobatics: +6
Escape Artist: +6
Perception: +5
Stealth: +7
Survival: +4
Swim: +6
Feat: Power Attack
ATTACKS
Without power attack
Bite +4 (1d6+2), 2 claws +4 (1d6+2)
With power attack
Bite +3 (1d6+4), 2 claws +3 (1d6+4)
Evolutions:
- Bite (From quadruped)
- Legs (x2) (From quadruped)
- Pounce (1 pt)
- Claws (1 pt)
- Improved natural armor (1 pt)
- Improved damage (claws) (1 pt)
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I also have 3 questions
Q: Why go for armor bonus over natural armor bonus with level armor bonus?
Q: Reach: One attack means one claw right?
Q: Improved damage: One attack type means all my claws or my bite?
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Improved Unarmed Strike for 1, Dragon Stance for 3 is "optimal", you'll quickly find the issue with "Pouncers" is friends get in the way far too often, and this takes care of that. Lacking that, I usually like Combat Reflexes and Toughness; and taking an evolution for reach on your best attack. It just leads to lots of attacks in the long-run, and toughness shores up the low hp issue of eidilons a little.
Lose gore @ 1; should be claws / pounce / improved armor, generally. Just optimizes usefulness / survivability.
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Toughness might be a useful feat, if you are having to roll for hit points, and are rolling poorly.
Generally, Eidolons and Animal Companions just get 'monster hit points' (average, no roll, no max hp at 1st level), but I have no idea if that's stated anywhere in the books, or just something you have to find out in a FAQ or something.
I am pretty sure that claws counts as one attack for purposes of other evolutions. Say you take reach, I read reach as applying to both claws.
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@Thalin: The rest of the party does get in the way a lot. :)
@Set: We roll, I read a bunch of threads about the subject and the common consensus seems to be (by word of Jacobs I believe) that the averages are there so the DM doesn't have to spend time and they had to put something there. I rolled a 6 on level 1 +1 con +1 from favored class.
@Thalin: Sounds good.
@J b 200: The thing is they specifically say 'attack type' with improved damage, but only 'attack' at the reach. It is a bit confusing to be honest.
i see that no one posted any thing about the Serpentine
could some one post ideas for it plz mainly
Evolutions and feats for lvl 1 to 5
If you're trying to optimize then Serpentine is dildos. It has low strength, low speed and can't ever pounce. In exchange you get a higher dex (weak) a climb speed (weak) and trip for free (only costs 1 EP). It also has no free appendages on which to put additional attacks. Biped and Quad get 3 primary attacks after spending 1 point. Serpentine has to spend 3 points to get the third attack and even then is stuck with a secondary.
If you're trying to optimize then Serpentine is dildos. It has low strength, low speed and can't ever pounce. In exchange you get a higher dex (weak) a climb speed (weak) and trip for free (only costs 1 EP). It also has no free appendages on which to put additional attacks. Biped and Quad get 3 primary attacks after spending 1 point. Serpentine has to spend 3 points to get the third attack and even then is stuck with a secondary.
3 points for the 3rd attack? You can spend one point for a tentacle or two points for a gore attack if you don't want arms for other reasons.
Higher dexterity can be very useful if you build around it. It boosts the eidolon's AC (so serpentine eidolons have the best ACs out of the original 3 base forms) and (if he takes Weapon Finesse as his first feat) its attack bonuses. At higher levels a serpentine eidolon can gain some nasty follow-ups to his bite attack.
Oh -- and don't overlook the benefits of that free reach (bite) evolution. I have lost track of how many enemies my serpentine eidolon has brought down with opportunity attacks at range.
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Actually the serpent with the reasonably priced Amulet of Agility can be pretty amazing. Small size, dex purchases are cheaper. Your AC is even more redic than a standard Eidilon, and you can do trips like a champ with the neck + weapon finessee (though it eats an attack, you can't combine it on the bite). Also, they are great scouts, and have a built-in climb speed.
I am a big proponent of serpent-amulet-weapon Finessee eidilons; they are cooler and more rare, and nearly the same damage; with higher to hit and AC.
A tentacle is a secondary attack and therefore crap, the gore might work depending how the GM interprets the Head evolution:
the additional head does allow the eidolon to take other evolutions that add an additional attack to a head (such as a bite, gore, or breath weapon).
But now I'm thinking it would only be necessary to double up on those evolutions.
If you're taking Weapon Finesse and a Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists you're wasting a valuable feat and a valuable amulet slot. You're spending scarce resources making up for the general weakness of Dex-based builds.
Choosing a small eidolon is intriguing for levels 4-7 but before that you don't have an amulet and after that you're missing out on the damage potential of Large. I'm also not enthusiastic about the CON drop.
Reach is a fantastic evolution, but you don't need to be serpentine to take it, you're just getting it for free and it's only worth one point.
In the end, Biped offers +2 Strength and free reach once large, Quadraped offers pounce and Serpentine offers... +1 AC and a climb speed.
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We have just levelled up!
I present Luna level 3 for perusal. I hope she is still legal. :)
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Luna EIDOLON (level 3)
Base form: Quadruped
STR: 15 (base 14 + 1)
DEX: 15 (base 14 + 1)
CON: 13 (base 13)
INT: 7 (base 7)
WIS: 10 (base 10)
CHA: 11 (base 11)
HP formula: 3d10 + 3 (con) + 3 (favored class ability)
HP: 26
Size: M
Speed: 40ft (20 + legs (10) + legs (10))
AC: 18 (base 10 +2 dex +4 natural armor (2 base, 2 level) +2 improved natural armor)
AC - Touch: 12 (base 10 +2 dex)
AC - Flat-footed: 16 (base 10 +2 natural armor +2 improved natural armor)
Init: +2 (dex +2)
Saves: Fort: +4 (+3 base +1 con), Reflex: +5 (+3 base +2 dex), Will: +1 (+1 base)
BAB: +3
CMB: +5 (+3 BaB +2 str)
CMD: 17 (base 10 +3 BaB +2 str +2 dex)
Special abilities: Darkvision, share spells, link, evasion, mount
base class skills: bluff, craft, knowledge: planes, perception, sense motive, stealth
4 extra class skills: Survival, Swim, Escape Artist, Acrobatics
Skill points: 12
Skill ranks: Acrobatics (1), Escape Artist (1), Perception (3), Stealth (3), Survival (2), Swim (2)
Acrobatics: +6
Escape Artist: +7
Perception: +6
Stealth: +8
Survival: +4
Swim: +7
Feat: Power Attack
ATTACKS
Without power attack
Bite +5 (1d6+2), 2 claws +5 (1d6+2)
With power attack
Bite +4 (1d6+4), 2 claws +4 (1d6+4)
Evolutions:
- Bite (From quadruped)
- Legs (x2) (From quadruped)
- Pounce (1 pt)
- Claws (1 pt)
- Improved natural armor (1 pt)
- Improved damage (claws) (1 pt)
- Mount (1 pt)
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She is basically a mount now. Level 3 is otherwise a bit dull.
The only thing I am still in flux over is the feat. Anyone have some recommendations for the feat at this level? I was thinking improved natural attack and lunge, but both require more BaB then +3. Perhaps combat reflexes? Am I allowed to wait till I get +4?
Help appreciated. :)
Who is your eidolon serving as a mount for? Your summoner is human, so it isn't the summoner as best I can tell.
Hi,
Feat: Death from Above, combined with a flying Eidolon (I think it is allowed at level 5), combined with pounce, combined with energy attack evolution (like acid), combined with amulet of mighty fists flaiming, shock (going for the extra damage).
Death from above gives you +5 on a charge instead of +2.
Keep him in the air, and you will almost always have an angle to charge from. If you can afford a +2 equivalent amulet of mighty fists, you will have your regular damage +3 d6 energy damage on each attack at level 5, where you have a maximum of 4 attacks (with natural).
Pouncing the lower ac mobs should let you hit with all hits in a lucky round, delivering 12d6 of energy damage on top of all your normal damage for pouncing. Not many mobs can stand after that at level 5.
You will probably not be able to do this every round, perfect flying maneuverability is probably needed for that, but even every other round it is a great help for the party, since you can go somewhat deep, maybe taking out a caster, then use a round to position for a new airborne charge, from behind the enemies, then charge, possibly with a flank bonus as well.