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Hi, reading the rule on Int penalty it says every char gets min 1 skill point per level.
Is that before or after race+ favored bonus is applied?
Would an Int 7 Human fightrer who takes the skillpoint favored option get 3 skills per level.
(I ask because I never play negative Int Characters but am considering it cause trying to make a decent TWW on a 20pt buy.
I'm thinking
Str 16 (level to 18)
Dex 15 (level to 18)
Con 14
Int 7
Wis 10
Cha 15 ( need cha for orc improved eldritch heritage)
As far as I know yes. My understanding of the order of operations is first you apply your int modified (minimum 1) then you apply the bonus human skill point and then the favored class modified bringing you to 3.
The RAW is not explicit, but I would say you add ALL modifiers, then subtract. THEN round up to 1 if you otherwise would have 0 or fewer skill points.
So a human fighter with an Int of 7 would get 2 class + 1 human + -2 Int skill points = 1 skill point (2 with favored class).
But not 2 class - 2 int = 0 skill points, round up to 1, then human bonus +1 = 2 skill points (3 with favored class).
I can see why someone would interpret it differently though. I'd clear it with your GM.
ETA: I also wonder how automated character generators do this... something to check when I get home...
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I've always run it that the favored class bonus is applied after all the other bonuses and penalties. Given that a 7 gives a -3 penalty, the base would be 2-3, so the minimum 1, plus favored class bonus, so 2 points a level. Normally, though, you can only put an ability down to 8.
Why do you need the 15 charisma, and why do you think a human can get orc things?
Why do you need the 15 charisma, and why do you think a human can get orc things?
The Eldritch Heritage feats allow you to select sorcerer bloodline powers. You need 15 Cha to take Improved eldritch heritage to get the Orc bloodline 9th level power (Str of tje beast. Adds a +6Inherent to STR as you level)
I like to Really pump Str.
With a 18 Str+6(Belt)+6Inherent Thats a str score of 30, withoutneeding a +5 manual of str ( which are too damn hard to find).
Why do you need the 15 charisma, and why do you think a human can get orc things?
I think he meant "sorc" for sorcerer? The Eldritch Heritage and Improved Eldritch Heritage feats give you sorcerer bloodline abilities. They're in Ultimate Magic.
And ninjaed! (Where's the orc bloodline?)
The RAW is not explicit, but I would say you add ALL modifiers, then subtract. THEN round up to 1 if you otherwise would have 0 or fewer skill points.
So a human fighter with an Int of 7 would get 2 class + 1 human + -2 Int skill points = 1 skill point (2 with favored class).
But not 2 class - 2 int = 0 skill points, round up to 1, then human bonus +1 = 2 skill points (3 with favored class).
I can see why someone would interpret it differently though. I'd clear it with your GM.
ETA: I also wonder how automated character generators do this... something to check when I get home...
I'd say, based on the verbiage used in the different sections
The number of skill points gained each level, though your character always gets at least 1 skill point per level.
Skilled: Humans gain an additional skill rank at first level and one additional rank whenever they gain a level.
that scenario #2 in your post is likely the intended outcome, though I agree the rules aren't precisely clear.
So 3 skills for human, awesome. My fighter can still somewhat contribute to party skills then despite being dumb.
ETA: I also wonder how automated character generators do this... something to check when I get home...
2 class - 2 int = 0 skill points, round up to 1, then human bonus +1 = 2 skill points (3 with favored class).
That is how Mine, and the others I have seen do it.
The RAW is not explicit, but I would say you add ALL modifiers, then subtract. THEN round up to 1 if you otherwise would have 0 or fewer skill points.
So a human fighter with an Int of 7 would get 2 class + 1 human + -2 Int skill points = 1 skill point (2 with favored class).
But not 2 class - 2 int = 0 skill points, round up to 1, then human bonus +1 = 2 skill points (3 with favored class).
I can see why someone would interpret it differently though. I'd clear it with your GM.
ETA: I also wonder how automated character generators do this... something to check when I get home...
Hero Lab adds the human +1 bonus after the minimum of 1 is calculation. A level 1 human fighter with a int of 3 has 2 skill points, 3 if you select skill point for your favored class bonus..
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It wouldn't make sense to nerf one of the core race abilities of humans just because they're dumb. Since anyone gets 1 skill point regardless of Int score, and humans are skilled (they get an extra skill point) it would be added after the the neagative modifiers have been applied. Same with the favored class, for the same thematic reasons.
The mechanics behind this theory also support it. If these modifiers applied after the fact then all low Int characters would take an alternate racial trait and a bonus hit point. Paizo seems to have tried to avoid shoehorning characters like that.
Besides, I've known many people who were dumb as a sack of bricks but still had impressive talents.
This guy has an Int of 4 and two skill points, and his favored class bonus went to Hp
Flagged to move to Rules section. :)
I believe it's been clarified before that the "minimum 1 rank" is before FCB and Human bonus, but I don't have a link. Sorry.
Someone had a very good explanation of it being that way, but I don't have time to look for the link at the moment. I will post it later tonight when I get home if nobody else has already gotten to it.
I'd like to hear an official response from someone at Paizo on this one.
Joshua J. Frost (Missing Title, but was main PFS guy)
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(Note that the following pondering of this question isn't relevant to RAW. As Grick points out via quotation, by RAW the minimum applies solely to the sum of the base amount from class and the int modifier, with all other bonuses applied afterward.)
I think one of the issues is if you take a human without the skill bonus racial feature and put them next to one with the skill bonus racial feature, you would expect that the latter has 1 more skill point (all else being equal). Including any such racial feature before the check for minimum would make this untrue, as they would have the same number of skill points in the low-int case. Being one of the two racial features that human has, it would be quite cruel to rob them of that. Also, the racial feature never says that having one extra is conditional, and the skill points minimum never says to include anything but Class + Int before doing the minimum, so it has to be assumed that they are not related.
Similarly with the favored class bonus. If one character invests into skills with it, and another doesn't, the former character should have more skills.
The int penalty will be its own punishment, as that person will often fail even common knowledge checks (DC5-10) and find themselves rather clueless quite often. Even with heavy investment they can't get an int-based skill to be more than okay.
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Why do you need the 15 charisma, and why do you think a human can get orc things?
The Eldritch Heritage feats allow you to select sorcerer bloodline powers. You need 15 Cha to take Improved eldritch heritage to get the Orc bloodline 9th level power (Str of tje beast. Adds a +6Inherent to STR as you level)
I like to Really pump Str.
With a 18 Str+6(Belt)+6Inherent Thats a str score of 30, withoutneeding a +5 manual of str ( which are too damn hard to find).
If you have the +6 Inherent bonus (through Improved Eldritch Heritage), then you can also benefit from the +6 Size bonus 17 minutes each day (through Greater Eldritch Heritage). Granted, you will need to boost your CHA to 17 by 17th level though.
The Orc bloodline is from Orcs of Golarion.
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I'd like to hear an official response from someone at Paizo on this one.Joshua J. Frost (Missing Title, but was main PFS guy)
Works for me. Thanks for the links.