...out of a Paladin and a Sorcerer, without having a build that pales in comparison to a Magus? How would it be done?
Why paladin. Fighter stacks up much better imo :P
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I have two obsessions: Sorcerers and Paladins.
Well, generally speaking, you want full casting. Which means 9 levels in sorcerer, 1 level in paladin, and 10 in eldritch knight.
...out of a Paladin and a Sorcerer, without having a build that pales in comparison to a Magus? How would it be done?
Focus on spellcasting more than fighting. Cast first, then fight only if you have to.
It depends on your party's makeup, but spamming useful buffs on your party first, then yourself, can work.
The nice thing is that your main stat helps a little on the pally side, and you don't need UMD to use wands of pally spells.
The EK is a better spellcaster than the magus at high levels. You won't get that until mid levels.
This is hypothetical, mind you. I want to explore the possibilities of EK builds that never touch the Fighter or Wizard classes.
So the Paladin/Sorcerer has a couple advantages. What about other EK builds that don't use Fighters or Wizards? What can you think of?
I recommend Pal2/Sorc4/DD4/EK10 if you want to get 8th level spells and still be awesome at combat. You can still get 13th level on your bloodline powers there, which is good.
7th level spells with 4 levels of Paladin and 2 levels of Sorcerer and the oath of vengeance can get you quite a few smites per day with a high charisma, which added to your to hit and AC when smiting, gives you a bonus to damage, all for just a little swift action. Very nice.
Sure you can do well with a build like that. The synergy between paladin and sorcerer is pretty good.
Although to be honest, a Paladin 2 Sorc 18 wouldn't be bad either. Especially with that trait that gives you a +2 to your caster level.
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I'll suggest a the old standby swing through Dragon Disciple if your going that route. Pick up some nice little toys, pump up a bloodline and then shift into EK after you get your 3rd level spells or top off the class.
Pally 4/Sorcerer 1/DD 10/EK 5
Pally 3/Sorcerer 2/DD 6/EK 9
This works a bit better if your more focused on melee then spell casting of course.
Haven't seen what kind of arch-types are about that might work with this...
What about a Witch/Barbarian EK? You can't cast spells during rage, but you can do so beforehand to buff yourself, then rage.
The Witch really isn't about buffs though... :(
Well, son of a b%#+#. That's what I get for not paying attention. Still, what the Witch can cast looks like it fits the Barbarian flavor pretty well.
The Witch really isn't about buffs though... :(
Summoner or Bard + Pally might be interesting.
It has Summoner levels. That puts it in the realm of NIMBY.
I do endorse the use of Dragon Disciple highly, I even wrote a guide.
Comparable to Magus? Not with that shocking grasp trick they do for damage, but they are pretty awesome.
What about a Witch/Barbarian EK? You can't cast spells during rage, but you can do so beforehand to buff yourself, then rage.
Thematically I've kind of wanted to do a WithKnight (Cavalier/Witch). Mechanically I'm not sure it would work that well.
A gunslinger (mysterious stranger)/bard (arcane duelist)/EK looks interesting.
A monk (sohei)/sorcerer (empyreal bloodline)/EK could be fun too.
I'm playing a Paladin 2/Sorcerer 5 in a Kingmaker campaign, and enjoying it. Magical Knack, as mentioned, helps. Mirror Image and a high AC from things like Mithral armor, the Shield Spell, and occasionally Smite are nice on the front line.
With Primal Elemental (Air) Bloodline and a Lesser Intensified Spell rod on the way, will be doing 7d6+7 damage with Shocking Grasp soon. Not too shabby.
I started the character before Magus was public, but have no regrets...
The EK will lose out on all the nifty bloodline stuff.
I would prob suggest paladin 2 / celestial or destined sorcerer after that.
Would a Ranger/Witch work?
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i've played a pally/sor/EK before- i went paladin 2 (divine grace ftw!)/sorcerer (celestial) 6/EK til we stopped playing. that character was a ton of fun and super thematic. we had a straight class barb in the party, so he was responsible for the heavy hitting and i would buff us both and wade in with him; in fights where i used smite evil my damage was pretty much on par with his. (that said, i have also played a fighter 1/transmuter 5/EK x before, and he was mechanically better, but i didn't like him quite as much).
from a thematic side, i really like paladin 2/sorcerer (gold or silver dragon) 3/DD 4/EK x. if you actually played to 20th (p2/s4/DD4/EK10) you'd have +17 BAB and CL 16 which is pretty good- plus some cool dragon powers, a decent AC, and a nice STR (and really, who doesn't want to be a part dragon scion of good)
if you're looking for an atypical build... here's a few that might be interesting that nobody has mentioned:
stealthy- ranger 1/sorcerer (envenomed) 6/EK x (take Eldritch Heritage and Imp EH for Umbral bloodline)
cannibal (evil)- barb 1/sorcerer (sanguine) 6/EK x
shugenja type (inspired by 3.0 class)- samurai 1/sorcerer (elemental) 6/EKx
and this one violates your rules, but looks fun =P
gunslinger 1/spellslinger 5/EK x
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I'll suggest a the old standby swing through Dragon Disciple if your going that route. Pick up some nice little toys, pump up a bloodline and then shift into EK after you get your 3rd level spells or top off the class.
Pally 4/Sorcerer 1/DD 10/EK 5
Pally 3/Sorcerer 2/DD 6/EK 9
This works a bit better if your more focused on melee then spell casting of course.
Haven't seen what kind of arch-types are about that might work with this...
I personally call this kind of Combo the "Silver Dragon Knight"
Im hoping it catches on.
At low to mid levels the Magus is going to run all over the Pally/Sorc combo, but if you can hang in there, take the DD/EK combo with it, and really know what you're doing with feats, you're a hell of a beast in combat.
It's a bit of a Magikarp build, though, and I probably wouldn't want to play it from 1-20.
I'm a bit interested in trying the combo with an antipaladin, though. AP/evil-dragon-bloodline/dd/ek would probably make for a surprising villain.
lol- this is totally off topic but i came up with an awesome villian idea the other day...
a chaotic evil, scrawny, foul-mouthed gnome that nobody takes seriously...
miserable str/dex, really good cha...
synthesist/anti-paladin! when he's by himself he seems too weak to be a threat but if he has to fight he does so from inside of his demon-esque eidolon- which gives him good physical stats and some secondary natural attacks to go with his greatsword and huge bonus for smiting :)
At low to mid levels the Magus is going to run all over the Pally/Sorc combo, but if you can hang in there, take the DD/EK combo with it, and really know what you're doing with feats, you're a hell of a beast in combat.
It's a bit of a Magikarp build, though, and I probably wouldn't want to play it from 1-20.
I'm a bit interested in trying the combo with an antipaladin, though. AP/evil-dragon-bloodline/dd/ek would probably make for a surprising villain.
I recommend taking Green or Black and then going with the monster feat Noxious bite. Once you get into the mid-levels it starts to get really fun!
It'd have to be black for theme. Aren't greens the closest to good and most lawful?
I dunno. I ignore alignment and the effect dragon color has on it.
What about a Cavalier/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple/Eldritch Knight who only takes one level of Sorcerer? The level array would be Sor 1/Cav 5/DD 10/EK 4, taking all these levels in order from left to right. Sorcerer bloodline would be Sovereign Dragon.
Paladin/Sorcerer builds rock.What program makes those PDFs or do you put them together manually?
I make them manually with Microsoft Word 2010.
I don't have an automatic template or anything, but I have so many different characters made this way (90+) that making a new one is as simple as working with a template (as I can simply modify an existing character of the appropriate race/class combo).
Paladin/Sorcerer builds rock.
Is all that gear near the Character Wealth By Level table recommendation? I ask, because I don't usually get to play characters that high in level.
Paladin/Sorcerer builds rock.Is all that gear near the Character Wealth By Level table recommendation? I ask, because I don't usually get to play characters that high in level.
Yes, absolutely. I am meticulous when it comes to following the wealth rules. If it matters to you, he was built using the PC wealth table, not the NPC wealth table. He crafted some of it himself with Craft Wondrous Item (paying the crafting cost rather than the market price), but as per the new FAQ, that's both expected and within the rules. :D
The character is designed to be a spellcasting tank. He never fails a save except on a 1, has an extremely high AC (which can reach 50 when smiting), can still cast several powerful spells at -1 caster level with which to buff/fight with, and can heal and buff quite well (when laying on hands, he actually heals himself hit points more than he does those he touches thanks to his Reward of Life feat).
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I personally call this kind of Combo the "Silver Dragon Knight"
I'm hoping it catches on.
In all honesty Pally/Sorc/DD is a combination that's been around for ages, I think as far back as 3.0/3.5 Dungeons and Dragons.
It worked a bit better on the paladin side as you got spell slots instead of caster levels in old 3rd edition D&D, giving a pally a huge pile of mostly useful first level spells, and lots of interesting abilities to go with it. My personal old build for this was Paladin/Warmage, which was fun.
This thread seems almost surreal to me.
There is a bunch of very good advice on how to build a pal/sorc here.
A few months ago when I tried to get advice on nearly the same thing, almost all I got was a whole bunch of "don't do it" and "it's a trap."
I'm glad the OP is getting the advice requested.
Well, generally speaking, you want full casting. Which means 9 levels in sorcerer, 1 level in paladin, and 10 in eldritch knight.
OUCH!
Then why bother with paladin and EK if all you want it spellcasting? Sor 20 it better, isn't it? Your BAB is too low, no bonus from paladin except for a smite attempt which you are not really capable of using all far what? the only way I can see this working is high STR -> form of the dragon -> transformation and that is not really that good.I'd second the mix of DD and EK, with any kind of combinations between those and SOR and PAL. I'd always get at least to PAL2 to get divine grace, it's really that good.