I have a player who likes all the abilities of the paladin except: Smite Evil. He wants instead at level 1,5,10,15 and 20 a +1 to att+dmg, like the fighter weapon training.
Is this a fair deal? if feel Smite Evil is more powerfull.
What he is proposing only affects evil targets and it's usable only a certain times per day then it is WAY weaker than the smite.
He wants it for all enemies, seems oke with me. The code of conduct is still working
+5 attack and damage against everything all day long instead of +5/6 (starting cha 14 or 16 and +6 headband) and +20 damage only against 5 must-be-evil enemys?
I'll take the exchange anyday. You shouldn't allow that.
To limit it somewhat I think you should allow it to be permentantly on but only for enemies the paladin knows to be evil (via detect evil, or if they have non-detectin items then he would need to witness a truly terrible act).
At level 20 a paladin would have way more than +5 in charisma... I've never started with anything less than +3, and at level 20 I would do my best to let it become something like +9 (one increase and +5 inherent, +6 headband) to attack and of course +20 to damage.
Charisma would not become a dump stat due to divine grace, so there should be no issues due to min-maxing.
Overall I'd say to let him get exactly weapon training but with another name (be explicit in excluding gloves of dueling), so +1 to attack/damage at level 5th, 9th, 13th and 17th. If he feel penalized at low levels just give him a +1 to hit only.
16 start + 1 increment + inherent 5 + headband 6 seems to me quite the investment. STR shoud be you primary stat, and if you have a 16/16, thats 20 point right there. Even on a 25 PB your dex and cos are going to be awfull. If you have a +5 tome, your first priority shoud be strenght. If you dump a +6 (inherent + bump) into char for +3 hit when you smite instead of +3 hit +3 damage all day long you are doing it wrong. If you are rich enough to afford a second tome (what kind of GM you have?) by all means go for cha. But the first priority should be STR.
First of all you are forgetting an important advantage of smite evil, no DR whatsoever, losing that is quite the hit. (Also don't forget the +AC but that's not so big)
@Dekalinder
I would like to introduce to the oath of vengance paladin, this guy should have CHA as his first priority.
@OP
I wouldn't allow him to do that simply because it doesn't feel right. Sure it's not over the top, quite the opposite i would say, but it doesn't sit well with me that the paladin doesn't become any better when facing the BBEG, and the weapon training doesn't seem very paladin-like to me.
I think he can have it but only for deities weapon. To give it some charme. I know the player does'nt mind being less powerfull. He compensates in other ways.
Thanks for the help
Tell your player to play a ranger; or a fighter. Getting "weapon training" (or equivalent) on a paladin is very powerful. Better than Smite Evil, which is a potent power in its own right.
Keep in mind, that the same player will also most likely take the Weapon Bond power, so he'll end up with +10 to attack and damage to all foes for pretty much all fights that matter.
16 start + 1 increment + inherent 5 + headband 6 seems to me quite the investment. STR shoud be you primary stat, and if you have a 16/16, thats 20 point right there. Even on a 25 PB your dex and cos are going to be awfull. If you have a +5 tome, your first priority shoud be strenght. If you dump a +6 (inherent + bump) into char for +3 hit when you smite instead of +3 hit +3 damage all day long you are doing it wrong. If you are rich enough to afford a second tome (what kind of GM you have?) by all means go for cha. But the first priority should be STR.
The kind that follows the wealth guidelines :)
880k gp at level 20+5 tome= 137k gp -> 2 tomes are 275k gp.
You are left with 605k gp
+5 heavy fortification full plate is 102k gp
+5 holy something-else (until +10 equivalent) weapon is 200k gp.
+5 cloak of resistance, +5 ring of protection, +5 amulet of nat armor are 125k combined.
belt of str +6, headband of cha +6 are 72k gp.
You still have around 100k gp to play with.
I agree that STR should be favored, but only slightly so. I'd try to keep STR and CHA more or less equal, giving preference to STR but only slightly so. STR is better offensive-wise, but CHA is better defense-wise.
For stats, I'd go for equal (or near so) STR and CHA, low INT and WIS (possibly one dump), DEX no higher than 12, CON no higher than 14 (or even 12).
The paladin can swift heal, COS is not as important as for other front-liners. At level 20 CON could become a dump, since you can swift heal for 60 hp every round.
for melee, human, I'd go with str 15->17 (7pt), dex 12 (2pt), con 14 (5pt), int 10, wis 10, cha 16 (10 pt). 1 point left for 25pt buy.
For 20 point buy, 16 (14+2) starting STR is acceptable. Dex 12, wis 8 (one must be crazy to be a paladin) or int 8 are acceptable too.
I have a player who likes all the abilities of the paladin except: Smite Evil. He wants instead at level 1,5,10,15 and 20 a +1 to att+dmg, like the fighter weapon training.
Is this a fair deal? if feel Smite Evil is more powerfull.
I do not feel it is overpowered. I feel it does not fit well.
The paladin is supposed to be better against evil, evil outsiders, and evil dragons. he is supposed to be decent warrior but then really stomp on the BBEG. This takes that away. It also takes away one of the best unique abilities of the fighter class. Making it less attractive to play.
If you said he only gets the weapon training against foes that smite evil would have worked on, then I would agree. But I also think it would be under powered at that point.
16 start + 1 increment + inherent 5 + headband 6 seems to me quite the investment. STR shoud be you primary stat, and if you have a 16/16, thats 20 point right there. Even on a 25 PB your dex and cos are going to be awfull. If you have a +5 tome, your first priority shoud be strenght. If you dump a +6 (inherent + bump) into char for +3 hit when you smite instead of +3 hit +3 damage all day long you are doing it wrong. If you are rich enough to afford a second tome (what kind of GM you have?) by all means go for cha. But the first priority should be STR.The kind that follows the wealth guidelines :)
880k gp at level 20
+5 tome= 137k gp -> 2 tomes are 275k gp.
You are left with 605k gp
+5 heavy fortification full plate is 102k gp
+5 holy something-else (until +10 equivalent) weapon is 200k gp.
+5 cloak of resistance, +5 ring of protection, +5 amulet of nat armor are 125k combined.
belt of str +6, headband of cha +6 are 72k gp.You still have around 100k gp to play with.
And you have no plus to cos nor dex (cos at least should be primary, but also dex for saves, ac if wearing mithril and initiative). You have nothing but sword and armor, no shield, no bots or other slotted items (like, boots-gloves-whatever). You are not able to fly with any means. And a truckload of other things. Basically you have nothing but the bare minimum required to hit things with a stick. Thing that must be still and on the ground. You would be better spending that 137K on something like ioun stone (AC, +1 to nearly everything), a luckstone, wings of flying ecc. ecc.
Personally, if i were a paladin of higt enought level, i'd use a one-and-a-half sword 2h and carry a pair of gloves of storing with a heavy shield inside for when staying alive matter the most.
Your stat build seems good to me, but i'd switch str and cha, becouse till 4th level +1 str mod is better then 1 cha mod (you have only one smite). By level 4 they will be identicall since you will bump cha to 16. I agree on the wis requirement XD.
I agree that from a balance point of view, you should not give the paladin that ability.
The kind that follows the wealth guidelines :)
880k gp at level 20
+5 tome= 137k gp -> 2 tomes are 275k gp.
You are left with 605k gp
+5 heavy fortification full plate is 102k gp
+5 holy something-else (until +10 equivalent) weapon is 200k gp.
+5 cloak of resistance, +5 ring of protection, +5 amulet of nat armor are 125k combined.
belt of str +6, headband of cha +6 are 72k gp.You still have around 100k gp to play with.
And you have no plus to cos nor dex (cos at least should be primary, but also dex for saves, ac if wearing mithril and initiative). You have nothing but sword and armor, no shield, no bots or other slotted items (like, boots-gloves-whatever). You are not able to fly with any means. And a truckload of other things. Basically you have nothing but the bare minimum required to hit things with a stick. Thing that must be still and on the ground. You would be better spending that 137K on something like ioun stone (AC, +1 to nearly everything), a luckstone, wings of flying ecc. ecc.
Personally, if i were a paladin of higt enought level, i'd use a one-and-a-half sword 2h and carry a pair of gloves of storing with a heavy shield inside for when staying alive matter the most.
Well, I left 100k gp to take care of this stuff. Personally, I don't see what I could want to put on the weapon to make it +10 (+5 holy is enough, maybe keen if I'm short on feats) so it's other cash (70k gp) available for that stuff. Switching between two-handed and sword and shield is nice, but a +5 shield is only 25k gp. Other stuff I might like are a ring of freedom of movement and boots of flying but even those are pretty cheap and well within the cash left, both ioun stones too (especially if as said you save some money on the weapon, since you can get the property that you need using your bond).
High DEX and CON at that level are not really a must at 20th level imo: you have DR 10/evil, and against evil chances are that you get your CHA to AC. Also, healing 60 hp a round make you durable enough even with low CON.Your stat build seems good to me, but i'd switch str and cha, becouse till 4th level +1 str mod is better then 1 cha mod (you have only one smite). By level 4 they will be identicall since you will bump cha to 16. I agree on the wis requirement XD.
Yes, I agree that STR should be increased before CHA, I'm just saying that CHA should not lag behind.
My point is not that you must have at least a +9 in CHA, I'm just saying that CHA should be higher than +5/+6.
All in all I don't think the change is unbalancing (maybe offensively it's a bit better but I value CHA to AC very high). This variant seems powerful because it make it easy to compare the paladin to the fighter and make the difference between the two classes clearer (also, I don't like that this variant is actually better than the fighter weapon training).
That said, I think that a paladin who does not smite is not a paladin, it's as simple as that. I don't like the variant at all, I'm just saying that imo it's not stronger than a vanilla paladin.
At level 20 a paladin would have way more than +5 in charisma... I've never started with anything less than +3, and at level 20 I would do my best to let it become something like +9 (one increase and +5 inherent, +6 headband) to attack and of course +20 to damage.
Charisma would not become a dump stat due to divine grace, so there should be no issues due to min-maxing.Overall I'd say to let him get exactly weapon training but with another name (be explicit in excluding gloves of dueling), so +1 to attack/damage at level 5th, 9th, 13th and 17th. If he feel penalized at low levels just give him a +1 to hit only.
At 20th level you have 900,000 GP give or take 100,000. The guideline for WBL is 880,000 gp. So 274,000 for two +5 tomes isn't unreasonable.
Check the paladin archetypes. The Sacred Shield is one who gives up Smite Evil. Maybe your player would like that package better than the standard package?