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I'm stilll pretty new to pathfinder in general let alone PFS and the only other character I've played was a dwarf fighter in a home campaign. I thought I'd try something a little different when I created my first character for PFS and so I chose the Bard class.
When creating the character I has a support role in mind and had one of the local players help me create the character. While the support aspect of the character is great I find that I can't contribute meaningfully to combat after the second/third round.
I can continue a bardic performance as a free action and then... That's where I get lost.
The characters base stats are:
DEX 14(2)
CON 12(1)
INT 14(2)
WIS 10(0)
CHA 18(4)
I find that with the negative in strength I can't really contibute to either ranged or melee combat and being a bard I don't have access to any decent damage dealing spells.
Following the advice of another player I bought a wand of magic missile however I need to roll a UMD check to use it and I'm not sure it weighs up against the damage (though the range and instant hit are nice).
While I can't change the stat's at this stage, I would like some advice on how I can contribute to combat once I've cast and started my bardic performance.
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Things to consider (not immediately, unfortunately, just things to look forward to:
Feat: Weapon Finesse and a finesseable weapon (maybe that whip you have proficiency for, which won't help your damage, but lets you also use your Dex instead of Str for combat maneuvers with that weapon)
Weapon Enhancement: Agile (Pathfinder SOciety Field Guide) Allows a light Finesseable weapon to use your Dex mod instead of Str mode for damage.
Feat: Dervish Dancer (requires one hand free, using a scimitar, and the Weapon Finesse feat, and two ranks in PerformL Dance) Allows you to use Dex for to hit and damage with a scimitar
Just a few thoughts off the top of my head.
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-Dazzling Display or any of the feat chains for this intimidation combat style.
-Buff or Debuff spells.
-Heal.
I would strongly warn you against trying to be a frontline fighter unless you've had at least two rounds of protection/buffing/debuffing opponents. Even with the dex-melee feats. Some big hitters will just turn you into mince meat.
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Things to consider (not immediately, unfortunately, just things to look forward to:
Feat: Weapon Finesse and a finesseable weapon (maybe that whip you have proficiency for, which won't help your damage, but lets you also use your Dex instead of Str for combat maneuvers with that weapon)
Weapon Enhancement: Agile (Pathfinder SOciety Field Guide) Allows a light Finesseable weapon to use your Dex mod instead of Str mode for damage.
Feat: Dervish Dancer (requires one hand free, using a scimitar, and the Weapon Finesse feat, and two ranks in PerformL Dance) Allows you to use Dex for to hit and damage with a scimitar
Just a few thoughts off the top of my head.
Bards do not get proficiency with Scimitar as part of their class. I'm assuming this character has already been made/played, so utilizing an archetype or being a Half-Elf with the Ancestral Arms (Scimitar) racial trait is out of the question.
However, Weapon Finesse+Piranha Strike is another good combo. Piranha Strike is essentially power attack for Finesse'd weapons. If you're willing to commit a significant amount of feats to a combat style, Point Blank Shot/Precise Shot/Deadly Aim are also worthwhile and may be better suited to someone in light armor.
Another tactic would be to max out your Use Magic Device score and then utilize wands/scrolls of damage dealing spells not on your list, but this can be an expensive route even with Day Job rolls via Perform supplementing your income.
At the end of the day, however, the standard Bard is at its core a support class. Their primary duty in combat is to give buffs, backup heal, and provide light combat support in the form of flanks, small amounts of damage, and controller style spells. Their real strength is their versatility and out-of-combat capabilities. If you're wanting to have more "oomph" in combat, I'd recommend multi-classing into Rogue for Sneak Attack, but at the cost of Spell/Bardic Performance progression.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Welcome to the Society Naztek! Here's my thoughts on your questions (which I now see are shared by the above posters!)
Pick up the Lingering Performance feat. Proper "performance per day" management with this feat (round 1 perform get benefits, round 2 stop get benefits, round 3 get benefits, round 4 perform get benefits, etc) will make it very unlikely for you to ever run out of performances.
Focus on getting some good spells as well. Early on Charm Person and Grease are impressive, as are Hideous Laughter and Suggestion. Having a wand of Cure Light Wounds will prevent you from using up your precious little spells per day to heal in the off chance you find yourself needing to bring someone back from the brink.
Combat wise, you'll find that a ranged weapon like a light crossbow is an invaluable way to spend your "well, I don't have anything better to do" rounds. Your Dex score will support this as well.
Dazzling Display is great if you have intimidate (the skill alone is a decent use of a standard action as well), and is used well in conjunction when you have a heavy hitter with Shatter Defenses
Lucky Halfling is an awesome support feat, but requires that you be a halfling.
That's all I can think of at the moment. With bards, you don't have to try to hard to be a good support character - just roll on every knowledge skill and your party will be happy to have you along!
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Also: Never underestimate the value of Aid Another in lower level play! Sure, you may not hit often in melee or even do much damage, but that fighter with power attack you can setup a flank with and then take the Aid Another action gives him another +4 to hit. Given most front line melee combatants have only a +5-+7 to hit (Raged Barbarians excluded), this almost doubles to their to hit roll and makes it safer to use something like Power Attack.
In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent. If you're in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent's next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn. Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.
I actually had a Chain Fighter Hexblade in Living Greyhawk who abused his reach to this end on a regular basis with great success at lower levels.
I see you started with 18 Cha. Well... you could just be a spellcasting-focused Bard.
Saving Finale and Gallant Inspiration are both really good spells, and so are the Core Book's Grease, Glitterdust, Heroism, Haste, Displacement, and Good Hope.
Not only can you buff the party, but you can impose nasty spell effects as a Cha-focused caster. Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus can up your DCs, as well as Charisma-boosting items.
-Matt
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The bard is a human so I took both Extra Performance and Improved Initiative as first level feats. I hadn't given much thought yet as to which feat to take next level but was leaning towards Weapon finesse.
The spells I've taken include
LVL0:
Dancing Lights
Daze
Detect Magic
Prestigitation
LVL1:
Cure Light Wounds
Grease
Cause Fear
And I spent 2PP after the first adventure to buy the wand of CLW to save on spells per day. I haven't been able to really use Grease but I suspect that's more because I just don't recognise the best moment to cast. Cause Fear I've used to better effect though.
While I like the style of support-caster and using the bardic performance to buff the party, I don't have enough spells per day to be wasting them every round while a performance is running.
I like the idea of using Weapon Finesse to get in and use a rapier. I was unaware of the Weapon Enhancement:Agile so I will look into that. Fist thing I bought after the wand of CLW was a Mithril Chain Shirt (this time with gold) but my AC is still not great for front line combat. How would I raise my AC at the level I'm on?
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Invest in a wand of shield, it lasts for one minute, gives you a +4 shield bonus to AC. That should help crank your AC right on up to a respectable level. Or, alternately, pick up some ranged abilities, via a bow and some feats. Your dex is alright, but not outstanding, so getting in melee is not always the best idea. A bow, however, lets you dance at range and take pot shots when not busy.
If you are willing to pick up a level of gunslinger (I hate myself now....), you can start to use guns, which target touch AC, meaning you are far more likely to hit even the most armored of targets.
Oracle is also a nice option, in that it feeds of cha, and Oracles of Nature and Lore can pick up abilities that let you use Cha instead of Dex for armor class. And a bardic Oracle of Lore.....well, they just won't be failing knowledge checks ever. By the pantheon, at lvl 2....minimum of a low 30 on any knowledge check 4 times daily? Abadar preserve us.....
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I considered using a bow and was even used a shortbow for a while on lvl 1 but taking penalties to hit because your target is in combat gets old when I'm taking negatives to damage because of my low str. I suppose I could take Point Blank Shot in order to get Precise Shot but that's starting down a feat tree which won't pay off properly until lvl 6.
I haven't much experience with pathfinder and I'm hesitant to start with multiclassing when I'm yet to understantd the primary class.
Wand of Shield looks good but I was told that Shield doesn't stack with existing Armour (like my Mithril Chain Shirt). I just looked up the spell and it doesn't mention that limitation so is it possible I've misunderstood?
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I like the idea of using Weapon Finesse to get in and use a rapier. I was unaware of the Weapon Enhancement:Agile so I will look into that. Fist thing I bought after the wand of CLW was a Mithril Chain Shirt (this time with gold) but my AC is still not great for front line combat. How would I raise my AC at the level I'm on?
Bards are also proficient with shields, so a Buckler (+1 AC) would also be a great idea and is pretty cheap/lightweight. Ring of Protection +1 (2,000) is a solid choice. This should bring you to AC 18.
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So... this is a little out there but worth a thought.
You can take a level of gunslinger with the Mysterious Stranger archetype. This lets you get grit based on charisma and add your charisma bonus to damage for CHA bonus rounds per level. It would get feat intensive if you wanted to make the damage ramp up a lot. You would primarily cast, but during rounds of downtime you can fire the gun.
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I like the idea of using Weapon Finesse to get in and use a rapier. I was unaware of the Weapon Enhancement:Agile so I will look into that. Fist thing I bought after the wand of CLW was a Mithril Chain Shirt (this time with gold) but my AC is still not great for front line combat. How would I raise my AC at the level I'm on?Bards are also proficient with shields, so a Buckler (+1 AC) would also be a great idea and is pretty cheap/lightweight. Ring of Protection +1 (2,000) is a solid choice. This should bring you to AC 18.
The buckler looks like a good option, will it interfere with bardic performance? I will also jump at getting the ring when I can afford it.
5. Pathfinder feats are odd levels, not every 3.
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Well, if you want to do ranged combat, you could pick up a crossbow - no strength penalty on damage like with the short bow. But again, you'll need point blank shot and precise shot to avoid penalties to hit. But you could also add the arcane strike and deadly aim feats to eventually up your damage potential.
The real problem seems to be that you didn't plan in advance, so it's too late to do the things you could have done at first level to make the character more effective in combat, so now if you try to make up for it, it'll take a bunch of levels before you get all the feats, etc that you need. For instance, improved initiative could have easily been skipped, you shouldn't have dumped str, etc, so now you're trying to catch up to make up for those mistakes. How far along is this bard? If you haven't invested too much time, and he's still only level 1 or 2, you might just consider starting over at level 1 with an entirely new build. If you do go that route, head to this thread: http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz1q6r?Treantmonks-Guide-to-Bards
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Naztek, I also have a support bard, but it's significantly more support oriented than even yours! She's the geisha archetype, so I don't even have armor or extra weapon proficiencies.
My suggestions after the first round of starting bardic performance, is to use spells and actions to aid others? You'll never really do that much damage, so there's really no point in trying. Here are some options:
Use a whip and aid another: You can use the aid another action to aid your allies to hit. You only have to "hit" AC 10, so it's not that difficult. I guarantee that your friend hitting with his greatsword will do more damage than you, regardless of future feats!
Cast Daze on humanoid opponents: If you're fighting humanoid opponents, you might as well start casting daze on them after round 2. An opponent missing an opportunity to hit you could save charges on a CLW wand. I'd suggest switching Daze out at 5th level for another spell if you don't have any other spells that you don't want to swap out.
Intimidate single opponents: You have high charisma and it is a class skill. It's ridiculously easy to demoralize an opponent and if you use it on the BBEG (Big Bad Evil Guy) then they'll be getting -2 to attacks and saves. Which will make your daze spell next round that much easier to get off :)
Use other people's items: Have other players give you their wands and scrolls if they would like to. You should always ask before you use it to see if it's an appropriate moment, but this allows you to use your action to cast that scroll of invisibility on the rogue, instead of the wizard, who might be able to cast a damaging spell.
Buy a wand of magic missile: If all else fails, buy a wand of magic missile and use the Use Magic Device skill to use it during combat. 1d4+1 damage can help!
For future levels weapon finesse could work really well with the whip. You could also then get combat expertise and improved disarm or trip. This could let you use some of your actions to bring opponents onto the group or lose their weapons. As a 3/4 BAB character you have a lower chance, but you'll always have inspire courage up! And at 4th level you gain access to heroism, which will make it quite viable to trip/disarm.
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There have been allot of good suggestions so far. The over all best suggestion if your not happy with how the character turned out. Remake the character if your still low level it will not take that long to get back up in level. If you don't like how the character work's and just play it any how. You will end up with a much larger problem in leveling a better made character to replace this one.
Long and Short.
If your low level and you can't fix the problem with the character. It's simpler to make a new character then be stuck with one you don't care much for.
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There have been allot of good suggestions so far. The over all best suggestion if your not happy with how the character turned out. Remake the character if your still low level it will not take that long to get back up in level. If you don't like how the character work's and just play it any how. You will end up with a much larger problem in leveling a better made character to replace this one.
Long and Short.
If your low level and you can't fix the problem with the character. It's simpler to make a new character then be stuck with one you don't care much for.
I am actually quite happy with how my character performs in his primary role as support but I wanted to know how to contribute more meaningfully once my bardic performance is going and I have time to spend.
There has definately been some great advice however which I will be following to hopefully make a difference.Mike Linder's Suggestion with the wayfinder and cracked opalescent white pyramid ioun stone combination seems to bee a great way to go and I think I'll get that before the Ring of Protection +1.
I would very so much consider re-doing, especially since you are level 1 it seems.
A few things:
In general, the best support bard is the guy who force multiplies his party and then helps kill the opposition. Grab a weapon, because you're a martial character.
Cha should be 16 tops. 14 is a good value. A maxed out charisma is great for spellcasters, but you can do amazingly with just 14 Cha. You'll mostly be casting buffs, which don't need a higher DC. Put the rest in Strength if you're going melee, or Dex if you're going Ranged.
Pick a fighting style from level 1, and go for it. After you buff everyone up, you'll be able to contribute by whacking enemies.
Timely Inspiration and Gallant Inspiration are amazing support spells. Grab them!
I've tried playing pure support caster bards. It's not terribly fun. You have too few spells to cast all day long and I often ran into the very issues you brought up. I had no clue what to do after the first round or two.
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I would very so much consider re-doing, especially since you are level 1 it seems.
Unfortunately no, I'm lvl 2 and will be levelling to 3 after my next session. There are definately things that I would change if I rebuilt the character or started a new bard build but I want to see if I can make the best of the situation I'm in and maybe learn some outside-the-box tactics.
Is timely inspiration worth it, when it doesn't stack with inspire courage?
It still can be worth it.
Is timely inspiration worth it, when it doesn't stack with inspire courage?
It's useful for skill checks or when it's not worthwhile to use Inspire Courage (some will argue it's not worth it to inspire courage until you get it as a move action or until it's +2)
Good offensive Bard Spells at Level 2:
Ear Piercing Scream,Touch of Gracelesness,Summon Monster 1(only in combination with inspire courage and augment summoning),Sleep
Edit:forget summon monster at level 2 just remembered its only 2rounds
at that point,its been a long time since I played from level 2:)
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Oh huh, I need Weapon Focus before I can get Dazzling Display. So regardless of whether I want to go for ranged or close combat or combat support (like Dazzling Display I'd need two feats before I can be effective. That's level 6.How I handled this with my bard is to get a wayfinder (250 gp) and a cracked opalescent white pyramid ioun stone (1500 gp), which when placed into the wayfinder gives you Weapon Focus. Then you can take Dazzling Display a couple levels earlier.
Where is the information regarding the cracked opalescent white pyramid ioun stone? I'm trying to look it up so that I can better understand how it works.
Where is the information regarding the cracked opalescent white pyramid ioun stone? I'm trying to look it up so that I can better understand how it works.
It's from Seeker of Secrets.
Basically a wayfinder gives you an extra benefit if you put an ioun stone in it. However Mike's suggestion about using a cracked ioun stone would not work. The wayfinder only works with normal ioun stones, not inferior ones.
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Is timely inspiration worth it, when it doesn't stack with inspire courage?
My wife's bard has saved us many times with timely inspiration and gallant inspiration (Climb, Escape Artist, Acrobatics, Use Magic Device, and I'm sure there are plenty other skills that getting not quite enough to pass can benefit greatly with a little nudge). Along with the finale spells, they're nice.
I've really enjoyed my bard thusfar, but mine was researched and planned out beforehand. I think to go archery would be really hard at this stage, but with your stat spread it might be the only way you can contribute meaningfully in combat.
You're a support build, but you've got very limited support resources until later. The problem is only from about levels 1-6ish. Post level 7 I find I have enough spells and enough UMD/items that I don't need to be in combat at all if I'd rather be casting for support. I'd focus on your 18 charisma and start grooming myself for that caster support role.
Harmonic Spell is absolutely amazing after level 8 when you can use it to Dirge of Doom =>cast=>inspire. Even if you're casting weak spells from a super affordable level 1 wand it's reasonably effective. Look at all the level 1 spells once you can make the UMD check, but even bards have some great ones like Hideous Laughter. The real gravy is having the other casters in the party prepare a spell to go off when your dirge begins so they can capitalize on it too. This allows you to enhance both the casters and the beat sticks, and the entire party will love you.
Without having optimized your feat/ability score selection prior you're dealing with a very narrow window of playstyle (relatively). It's still a great character, but it would have been even better with archery IMO, especially early on.
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STR 8(-1)
DEX 14(2)
CON 12(1)
INT 14(2)
WIS 10(0)
CHA 18(4)The bard is a human so I took both Extra Performance and Improved Initiative as first level feats. I hadn't given much thought yet as to which feat to take next level but was leaning towards Weapon finesse.
Since this is PFS character, what are your traits?
BTW, even though this is PFS, a certain amount of wink-wink is tolerated in tweaking a character at googoogaga first level, especially for PFS noobs (stats are not recorded in adventure-records, or anywhere else for that matter). Just don't walk out with a bard and come in with a barbarian and claim he played last week's adventure.
Tweaking: you might find the following a better spread of 20 points in a human bard:
STR:12
DEX+16
CON:14
INT:14
WIS:07
CHA:15 (all bumps)
Racial trait: Heart of the Wilderness
Traits: Reactionary, Maestro of the Society
00 saves 02 06 -1
01 bard1 02 08 01 Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot
I like the idea of using Weapon Finesse to get in and use a rapier. I was unaware of the Weapon Enhancement:Agile so I will look into that.
You'll get it at about 6th level, so I'd concentrate on staying out of melee prior to then. To give you an idea of what might happen to you in PFS at 6th level: you sit down with six other players, and the Tier gets bumped up to 8-9. An encounter features two big snakes with DR10/- and an 11th-level boss Greater Trip fighter with a pole-arm who kills the party barbarian in two turns. Oh, and the floor of the room you're fighting in is enchanted with Hypnotic Pattern, and everybody has to make a save every turn or stand there fascinated.
-- There are a lot of useful things a bard can do in that kind of situation; futilely swinging a rapier for chump damage (and then getting his head ripped off) isn't one of them.
02 pala1 04 08 03 [Divine Hunter], Precise Shot
03 bard2 04 09 03 Improved Initiative
04 bard3 05 09 03 CHA>16
05 bard4 05 10 03 Deadly Aim
06 pala2 10 14 08 [Divine Grace][Lay on Hands] (own CHA headband by now)
07 bard5 Combat Expertise
08 bard6
09 bard7 Manyshot
10 bard8
11 bard9 Power Attack
12 bard10
Equipment around 7th/8th: Oathbow, scimitar, Headband of Alluring Charisma, Belt of Giant Strength, Circlet of Persuasion, Cloak of Resistance, buckler, mithral breastplate, Wayfinder, Ioun Stones (various), wands (various)
Things you can do:
* gnarly saving throws
* awesome armor class using Combat Expertise + fighting defensively (w/3 ranks Acrobatics) when cornered by BBEMs.
* stack Smite (1/day, but useful nonetheless) and Inspire Courage.
* cast paladin spells off wands without UMD checks (prior to being able to auto-20 UMD).
Im not sure if using a ioun stone to get weapon focus and then pick up depending feats is ok.
What if you loose the wayfinder or it gets destroyed?
Probably then you can´t use your feats anymore.
Its a nice idea though.
What you can also take a look on are performance combat feats if that is allowed.
Weapon Focus-Dazzling Display-Performing Combatant-Master Combat Performer-heroe´s Display-Dramatic Display-Masterfull Display
Its a long chain, but what you get is +4 on performance combat checks, +2 on attacks and maneuvers and intimidate as a free action.
You could also use the spell blistering incentive though.
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Im not sure if using a ioun stone to get weapon focus and then pick up depending feats is ok.
Were you replying to me? (I didn't say anything about Weapon Focus, and didn't list any feats needing it as a prerequisite. Otherwise, note that the competence bonuses provided by cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun stones and Bracers of Archery do not stack with Inspire Courage.)
Bards (a) get very few feats -- so every one you take should be used in every encounter (and ideally in every round) -- and (b) are considerably more "delicate" than a frontline meatwall tank or even a cleric; they especially do not want to be anywhere near anything with multiple attacks and poisonous claws/fangs/stench/etc. A straight-class bard just wilts when he has to make a fort-save, and Nauseated is one of the worst save-or-suck conditions (short of Blinded or ability score damage).
-- You will run into fort saves a lot in PFS (that's why I submitted an archery focus bard10/paladin2 multiclass).