Tentacle question

[Matt Stich]

If you attack with a tentacle as your only attack for the round, is it still secondary and at -5, or primary for full atk/damage?

[Rathendar]

Matt Stich wrote:

If you attack with a tentacle as your only attack for the round, is it still secondary and at -5, or primary for full atk/damage?

Pathfinder rules use the assigned type regardless of if it is the only attack in the round. A tentacle (secondary) will always be at -5(unless the feat Multiattack is taken which reduces it to -2)

[Archaeik]

From the context of your question, I assume you mean "as an alchemist"?

IF a single secondary attack(tentacle) is your ONLY weapon, then it gets bumped up (to full/1.5x str).
So, I'm not completely clear on how this interacts with unarmed strikes. But provided that you are non proficient, they aren't counted as weapons(you don't threaten), I'd assume you could get the full benefit.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/universalMonsterRules.html#natu ral-attacks
<-it's putting a space in there

Natural Attacks Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus and add the creature's full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type. Table: Natural Attacks by Size lists some of the most common types of natural attacks and their classifications.

[Talon Stormwarden]

Hrm, the next sentence after the one you bolded is:

This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one.

If I'm reading it correctly, that means that if you have more attacks than just a tentacle (which I would assume is the case for the OP, though that's not completely clear) the tentacle would still be a secondary attack.

However, based on the next sentence:

If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type.

then, yes, if a creature ONLY has tentacle attacks, they are primary, whether it has one tentacle attack or 10.

[Archaeik]

That is an interesting point. (and I agree)
Unfortunately the tentacle discovery can only be taken once...

I think the better question now, is
Can you take the tentacle attack as a primary (provided it is your only weapon) even though you still have iteratives available from BAB? (which you wouldn't want to take because your unarmed strikes would provoke)

I think it still works, but I'm not 100%.

[Jak the Looney Alchemist]

"Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type."

So not really if you want to full attack.

[Archaeik]

I wasn't talking about a full attack.
It's a matter of you having "attacks" from BAB, but your only weapon is natural, and happens to be secondary.

I'd assume attacking with said natural attack, is indeed made at full with 1.5x str. But, you only get the one. (and a move left over, yay? lol)

[Jak the Looney Alchemist]

As long as you're not using a full attack then the tentacle attack is primary and gets the appropriate bonus. There is nothing that requires you to treat as secondary because you have the possibility stabbing with a sword as long as it is your only natural attack. Just use a standard attack action and choose to attack with the tentacle instead of the sword.

[rpgsavant]

I've seen enough hentai to know where this thread is going.

[Grick]

Jak the Looney Alchemist wrote:

As long as you're not using a full attack then the tentacle attack is primary and gets the appropriate bonus. There is nothing that requires you to treat as secondary because you have the possibility stabbing with a sword as long as it is your only natural attack. Just use a standard attack action and choose to attack with the tentacle instead of the sword.

Attack action vs full attack has nothing to do with it.

How many natural attacks do you have?

1: Full BAB, 1.5xStr
>1: BAB-5, 0.5xStr

If you attack with both the natural attack and iterative weapons, the natural attack becomes secondary. If you full attack with only the natural attack, it stays primary.

This is relevant in case the user wants to make a full attack even if he only makes one attack, in order to use feats or abilities that depend on a full attack. (Like using Second Chance when your natural attack is far superior to your weapon)

[Talon Stormwarden]

@Grick
I can buy that.

To clarify though, if instead of an alchemist we were talking about a Froghemoth, if he were to take a standard action and attack only with a tentacle or tongue, it would be at +18 rather than +20 and remain at half strength, because of the natural attack rules?

PRD wrote:

Natural Attacks Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus and add the creature's full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type. Table: Natural Attacks by Size lists some of the most common types of natural attacks and their classifications.

[Daroob]

rpgsavant wrote:

I've seen enough hentai to know where this thread is going.

Darn! Beat me to it...

[Grick]

Talon Stormwarden wrote:

To clarify though, if instead of an alchemist we were talking about a Froghemoth, if he were to take a standard action and attack only with a tentacle or tongue, it would be at +18 rather than +20 and remain at half strength, because of the natural attack rules?

Yes. The Froghemoth has more than one natural attack, so his natural attacks remain in their primary/secondary state regardless of what actions he chooses.

According to the Table, Bite is Primary, Tentacle is Secondary, and Tongue is Other, which is Secondary.

stupid sexy froghemoth