I have been reading on the barbarian and this arch type. Can the barbarian go into a Controlled rage and then do a rage on top of that? Or is it just the controlled rage?
I think they trade rage for it, but it doesn't actually say that..
I guess, if you used controlled rage for for +4 Dex, you could Rage for +4 Str and Con: thus get +4 Str/Dex/Con, but the rds would be counted seperately.
you cannot double rage on top of controlled, although you can split up the controlled rage in increments of +2 across your physical stats
When an urban barbarian rages, instead of making a normal rage she may apply a +4 morale bonus to her Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution.
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Does that "instead of making a normal rage she may.." mean that she can also enter a normal rage? Or does she gain controlled rage in place of the standard barbarian rage?
An urban barbarian can use controlled rage in place of a normal rage. She doesn't lose the normal rage ability and can use it if she wants to (but not at the same time).
This is how I read it. It may not be what was intended, and I'm open for clarification, but it sounds like this to me.
The ask JJ thread is kind of his take on things though, i'd like to see a faq since controlled rage does say "...insted of entering a normal rage an urban barbarian may..." which in my eyes makes it a choice. It also does not have the "this ability replaces..." tag which everything that replaces does.
Either the wording is badly done or the barbarian gets to choose, it also brings into question weather the UB can access rage feats since he doesn't have rage according to JJ's post.
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The ask JJ thread is kind of his take on things though, i'd like to see a faq since controlled rage does say "...insted of entering a normal rage an urban barbarian may..." which in my eyes makes it a choice. It also does not have the "this ability replaces..." tag which everything that replaces does.
Either the wording is badly done or the barbarian gets to choose, it also brings into question weather the UB can access rage feats since he doesn't have rage according to JJ's post.
Uh...reread it. It doesn't have the 'replace' text and there is no need to mention Rage Powers because it begins "When an urban barbarian rages," and ends with "This ability otherwise follows the normal rules for rage."
In other words, Controlled Rage doesn't replace the Rage Class Feature, it is a new feature entirely that simply modifies the effects of the preexisting Rage class feature. And only in the very precise manner specified.
The only potential problem in wording is the use of the word 'may' which is clearly not intended to provide options (IMO, and especially with James Jacobs backing that interpretation), it's just a single slightly poor wording choice (and the only such in that archetype).
The difference between the words "may" and "must" is quite big though. From the same book (UC) there are archtypes such as merciful healer which have the word "must" in their archtype replacement abilities.
I never mentioned rage powers so i am not sure where that came from but nm. Controlled Rage doesn't modify or replace the existing rage class feature, the word "may" makes it an option an urban barbarian can utilise rather then entering a normal rage rather than forcing him to use controlled rage. the words "when the urban barbarian rages" have nothing to do with the availability or not of a normal rage since the qualifying word "may" is the important part of the sentance, and the section at the end "this ability otherwise follows the normal rules for rage" also has nothing to do with the availability of the normal rage, it means that the urban barbarian has the same number of rounds usage per day and follows all the normal rules for activating and using rage powers as well as for fatigue when entering and leaving rage, etc. Extrapolating from that your own interpretation is quite easy, however those two parts of the sentance have nothing to do with the word "may" or the fact that normally when an archtype ability replaces or modifies an existing ability it is called out at the end of the ability.
If it did modify the Rage class ability then it would have the same tag at the end of it that the Honour Guard archtype ability Sworn Defense has...
At 1st level, whenever an honor guard issues a challenge, he can select one ally as his ward for the duration of the challenge. Whenever the honor guard is adjacent to his ward, he takes a –1 penalty to Armor Class, and the ward receives a +1 dodge bonus to AC.
This modifies the challenge ability.
...and this is an archtype from the same book which should really be using the same presentation as every other archtype in the book. However getting started on the inconsistencies in presentation of each archtype over the core rule books is not something that needs to be rehashed, so i have hit the FAQ button.
I do not disagree that the intention "may" be that the urban barbarian loses access to the normal rage but quoting JJ who has been incorrect before when the FAQ has come out and throwing out bits of random text that do not stay uniform across the same book nevermind the whole product range to try to support your position does not prove it either way. I am not saying that i am right or even that you are wrong, i am just saying the the evidence you have pointed out is not pertinent to the discussion and that this needs to be resolved in an official FAQ rather than by JJ's home rules since, he does occasionally make decisions which are not backed by the eventual FAQ.
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If a Urban Barbarian could have both rage options (normal and controlled), it would be infinitely better than the core class.
I do not believe that Paizo will ever allow an archetype to make the core class obsolete.
Thus I think that the Urban Barbarian's controlled rage feature completely replaces the core barbarian's rage feature.
To Mike Schneider, based on the wording of Rage (which Controlled Rage references), I believe that the choice stays the same for the whole duration of the rage (ie, does not change every round). However, the next time you rage, you can choose to boost another stat (way I read it).
One of the devs i think it was JJ said no it replaces rage.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=361?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Qu estions-Here#18045
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Not to be a pedantic jerk, but JJ has also said that his answers should not be considered rules, it's his interpretation (which admittedly should have greater weight than say, your local PFS GM) but according to him, unless it comes from an errata (or for PFS, Mike Brock) then it's still RAW that you can do both.
My question has always been, can a UB take Raging Vitality?
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My question has always been, can a UB take Raging Vitality?
I would say yes.
If you think Controlled Rage is in addition to Rage, then no problem.
If you think Controlled Rage replaces Rage, it still is a Rage class feature and thus works for getting Raging Vitality.
Note however that if you choose to put the morale bonus of Controlled Rage in someplace other than CON, you do not get a +2 to CON by RAW (since there is no morale bonus to CON to add to).
If I were your GM, I would allow the additional bonus to CON though (as a houserule).
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JJ isn't a rules guy; his answers should be taken with a grain of salt.
I think that there is a difference between "taking with a grain of salt" and disregarding completely.
JJ is VERY clear in his clarification of Controlled Rage. I do not see the merest shadow of a doubt in his post. This is enough for me, especially in addition to my previous remark that doing otherwise makes the archetype far far better than the core class, which is very unlikely.
there is no logical or right answer. this is a case where the langauge is so ambigeous that either interpretation is equally valid. having said that, it would seem to me the point of the class is that they give up regular rage to do a controlled one, again there is no support for this interperetation based upon the langage, it just seeems to me to make more sense.
I don't think the wording makes the meaning unclear. Just look at how it uses may in the rest of it.
It lends that it should be read "When an urban barbarian rages, instead of making a normal rage she may apply a +4 morale bonus to her Strength, or may apply a +4 morale bonus to her Dexterity, or may apply a +4 morale bonus to her Constitution." Because here's how may is used later, "She may apply the full bonus to one ability score or may split the bonus between several scores in increments of +2." Here again the may is saying she has options. So it's not saying that you May controlled rage or rage. Also shows this because it says "when rage" and "instead of".
They didn't make it EVEN more clear because it's English, this says what they wanted when you take it as a whole. Also When you take in how the Wild Rager modifies rage, it makes even more sense, because you can't do a normal rage or an uncontrolled rage. The phrase reffering to the barbarian raging indicates that it modifies/replaces