I need some advice on whether you think this is too tough for the BBEG of a dungeon. By the time they face off against it, i suspect they will have used up a moderate amount of their resources.
The party consists of 2 fighters, a rogue,witch,ranger,alchemist,and cleric all of them are level 7 with above average stats.
The barbed devil is CR11 and he has a lot of great resistances/immunities/abilities.
Between the fire immunity(so much for alchemist bombs), spell resistance 22, the DC20 WILL save vs fear for anyone it hits. I think it may be too much.
The party is aware that they will be facing "devils" but they do not know which specific kind. SO at least with knowledge checks they should be able to prepare somewhat.
What do you guys think?
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Well with above average stats and 6 or more members you can liberally calculate the APL at level 9. That makes a CR 11 a "challenging" encounter based on the gamemastery section. Though in reality its a little easier than that with the action economy the barbed devil will just not be able to keep up. If all goes well he should eat up about half of their resources. I would go so far as to say give him a few lower level devils as minions to bump it up to an "epic" level encounter. That should eat up all their resources for the day and at least one person should die (based on the mechanics, I am not saying you should actively try to kill your players).
What's the environment like?
Does the party know ahead of time what they're fighting? Or, put another way, will they be able to retreat and plan, while the Barbed Devil waits impatiently for them?
I think these two issues make an enormous difference.
You beat me to the punch. I would also add "Do they have weapons that can overcome the DR?" as noted above.
The party consists of 2 fighters, a rogue,witch,ranger,alchemist,and cleric all of them are level 7 with above average stats.
Ok, let's look at what each can do.
The Witch and Cleric can't really cast spells on the Devil--they'd need to roll 15s on their Spell Penetration checks. Well, maybe 13 if they're Elves or took a feat almost no caster takes before 9th, when spell resistance starts to show up regularly. But still, that's basically 70% miss chance for all spells and then the Devil gets a chance to save on top of that (and his non-will saves are pretty damn good). In fact, the best save DC your spellcasters are likely to have is in the ~19 range, which the Devil would save on a 5.
The Witch can still use any aggressive Hexes they might have, but I don't think that will be a huge factor. I mean, really, how many no SR spells is the Witch likely to have prepared?
The Cleric can try to melee, but every hit on the Devil deals an average of 10.5 damage to the Cleric, so in order to even break even with the DR 10/Good that the Devil has (that your party is very likely unable to bypass), he has to be able to deal at least 21 damage per swing.
The Rogues are probably screwed as well. They have, at most, 4d6 Sneak Attack, which averages 14 damage. Their weapon is probably 1d6, so that's 17.5. So, again, to break even with the beating the barbs will give them, they need to have a Strength of at least 16. They'll probably end up killing themselves.
The Ranger is the safest and deadliest member of the party if he's an archer with Clustered Shots (extremely unlikely because there are generally more pressing feats to take for archers at 7th). In any other circumstance, he's totally screwed unable to deal any damage as an archer or he's killing himself same as the rogues.
The Alchemist would be the most powerful member of the party at level 9 (throwing upwards of 5 Force Bombs a turn), but now, a level shy of Force Bombs and Fast Bombs, he's almost helpless.
The Devil is immune to his base bomb and his greatest weapon (the Stink Bomb, since it is poison), and he has Resist 10 against the other sorts of bombs an Alchemist might (nobody takes Electricity or Sonic bombs). The worst case scenario is if the Alchemist didn't take Frost bombs and took Explosive Bomb or something to set up some kind of large area combo.
The Fighter is too variable a class to say for sure--an Archer with Clustered Shots or a Polearm Fighter is going to rock. A two-handed weapon fighter is going to be able to dish out plenty of damage. A two-weapon, sword n' board, or brawler type fighter is probably screwed.
Oh, and did I mention on top of all of this that the Devil is unlikely to ever miss? That it can power attack? That every hit generates a DC: 20 Will save and failing practically takes that character out of the fight?
The Fighter, Ranger and Rogues (who I assume are the front-liners) have a what, maybe a +4 to Will saves?
And even if they hurt it a lot, they won't be able to kill it--it'll just Greater Teleport somewhere else and maybe try and summon another one of itself (35% chance!).
This is a TPW waiting to happen. I know people are claiming action economy, but when more than half of those actions are totally ineffectual, it barely matters.
I think the only chance they really have is if you gave them Good aligned weapons or some means of making them Good aligned, or if the Alchemist chose very specific bombs and/or any archers have Clustered Shots--and even then, I think at least one Rogue is going down (killing himself against the Devil's Barbs).
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I saw throw it at them.
If the devil wins...you have a new arch enemy for the PC's. A Doctor Claw to their inspector gadget if you will.
I am betting the PC's will surprise you with their ingenuity. They will adapt for this fight...and if they know they are facing devils and didnt get the cold iron / good weapons / silver weapons to fight the enemy with then they learned a very important lesson in foreshadowing and prep.
It sounds like a decent fight for the party. The witch might get bored...but I am certain it's actions can be used to aid the party in not dying somehow instead of going offensive casting on the creature.
You have a high physical damage party. They will do fine.
Thanks for all the input everyone.
I have taken a d20 module 'hellspike prison' and am modifying it somewhat so that the encounter with the Barbed Devil is the end. As far as the PCs know they are trying to complete a quest where they must defeat Kytons (or chain devils CR6) (which are in an earlier part of this dungeon.) They will know that there is a more intense presence of evil greater than chain devils once they get to the location, and any prisoners they rescue would be able to somewhat describe the Barbed Devil. The party has purchased an encyclopedia on Devils, which will help their knowledge checks. So if they bother to do some research, they should know about needing good-weapons for most devils.
This module says it is designed for 4 9th level pcs, and was based on 3.5, and I contend that a pathfinder PC is more powerful than a 3.5PC of the same level. And the Barbed Devil is not the highest CR for the entire module (but they wont be facing anything tougher)
@Pan - I will make sure they know that most devils have DR
@Pipedreamsam - There are other minions they will face along the way, but I thought the end should just be BD vs Party. However if someone runs too far ahead, it could open up a battle with multiple foes.
@blackbloodtroll - The module says that the BD will allow the PCs to flee, since he is focusing on sacrificing prisoners in order to summon more allies.
@jamesmaissen - that is a good idea to run a mock battle
@mplindust - Thanks for the analysis.
The witch likes to misfortune and slumber hex and cackle to extend. From what I read this Devil is not protected from either as SR does not affect Hexes that are (SU).
The Ranger is on the archery path
One fighter is a High AC Axe/shield dwarf
The other is actually 1-Barbarian/6-fighter and fights 2-handed and deals the most damage
The Alchemist has not taken any discoveries for another sort of bomb (frost etc) so that could be a problem
The cleric is not a melee PC, however he could cast Prot-Evil and Align Weapon. (as @cos1983 pointed out)
@stephanschmitz - This fight may take place on Friday, but there is a chance they wont get this far because of other things that happen before they get there, in which case it may not be until March :(
I tend to agree with @mplindustries in the difficulty. Do you think if I just scale it back a tad (like reduce SR, AC, DR etc down a point or 2) that would be better?
The Ranger is on the archery path
Well then the fight is already won. I'm not sure what you were on about saying the barbarian deals more damage, clearly the Ranger needs to just take the nerf tips off his arrows! :-)
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If you are giving them time to plan beforehand I would even reduce the encounter again by 1 since they are just going to prep spells and buy items to specifically combat the monster which I count as "favorable terrain". This lowers it to an APL +1 encounter or a "hard" encounter. This still isn't even factoring in the fact that you have a singular monster and the action economy is going to be highly skewed.
Single devil against a party of 7? The party will wipe the floor with it. I'd throw in some lower level minions to get in the way. Nothing too rough, maybe some CR 5s.
Well then the fight is already won. I'm not sure what you were on about saying the barbarian deals more damage, clearly the Ranger needs to just take the nerf tips off his arrows! :-)
The Ranger is on the archery path
Without Clustered Shots or an aligned weapon, the DR 10/Good will absolutely wreck an archer build.
Clustered Shots is a very unlikely choice at 7th. Align Weapon is a very unlikely spell for a Cleric to prepare and Holy is an uncommon enchantment (nevermind the fact that a Holy Bow would be well beyond the wealth by level of a 7th level character).
Align Weapon is a very unlikely spell for a Cleric to prepare
Unless they already know they are going into a dungeon full of demons. I would memorize it more than once.
Single devil against a party of 7? The party will wipe the floor with it. I'd throw in some lower level minions to get in the way. Nothing too rough, maybe some CR 5s.
I completely agree with Deinol. The Barbed Devil will last two to three rounds tops. Make sure to have "minions" to help the devil out. Also, the alchemist can throw other types of bombs that are explosive and can leave acid damage behind, and he only needs to hit his touch AC of 16 is a cake walk for him. Also, some of the party members get more than one attack. If for some reason your group rolled all ones and two's have an escape route or reason the barded devil needed to leave only to encounter them at level 9? I hope that helps!
The alchemist isn't guaranteed a cakewalk on hitting (at level 7 he has a +5 to hit and possibly some dexterity, but we don't know if he has precise shot, and without improved precise shot he could still be facing some stiff penalties from allies in his way) and apparently only has the standard fire bombs (per the above post by the OP).
The cleric would seem to me to be likely for having some appropriate spells for this encounter, and honestly a lucky holy word or possible chaos hammer spell could really screw the devil up.
Minions (even simple lemures could work really) and appropriate targeting could turn this into a wipe for the party -- but that depends on the exact numbers involved from the melee hitters in the party, and what spells the cleric comes in with.
The cleric would seem to me to be likely for having some appropriate spells for this encounter, and honestly a lucky holy word or possible chaos hammer spell could really screw the devil up.
I am going to go so far as to say that the cleric is either going to make or break this encounter.
Quite possibly -- the witch can make it easier but the cleric has the shut down spells in this case.
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One thing to consider is if the fight is going bad quickly for the devil have him call in a few minor devils from a side room or summon them up. If the PCs are holding their ground against the devil and will eventually defeat him forgo the reinforcements. If the devil just pounds the heck out of the party have the devil make some snide comment about how the creatures from this plane are weak and not worth killing(unless its master/controller directs it to kill them) and have the reinforcements throw them in a cell where that rogue will pick the lock and they will have to escape... prolonging the adventure.
Making the fight easier:
-Have Barbed Devil use Scorching Ray, Pyrotechnics, Hold Person, and especially Major Image instead of its deadly melee abilities.
-Have Devil occasionally teleport away for a round.. Maybe reporting to something else.
-Biggest threat I see is the Fear effect on each hit. Remind players that most Devils have Fear abilities, so the Cleric packing Remove Fear or Calm Emotions can make a big difference.
-If the witch spams the Devil with a slumber Hex, and there's no other minions present to wake it, the fight's basically over.
-Give out some Potions of Align Weapon
Making the fight harder:
-Hellspike Prison, right? If I remember correctly, that fight takes place near lava, which the Devil can move in and out of with impunity. Were he to grab someone and then move into the lava with them.. well, even a resist energy or pro. energy won't save the character.
-Don't forget he can summon another Barbed Devil, though two of them against a 7th level party could prove too much.
-If the PCs don't have good ranged capabilites, he couldfsimply sit in the lava and hurl scorching rays at them with impuntiy.
-Minions... not that the Devil really needs a flanker or anything with a +18 to hit
-If the witch spams the Devil with a slumber Hex, and there's no other minions present to wake it, the fight's basically over.
Creature can be targeted with this hex only once per 24 hours - "Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day." so this is not an option, unless the devil fails his initial Will saving throw (+8 total bonus, versus DC 13+Int bonus for a 7th level witch without other boosts).
Single boss monster are usually a bad idea with that many characters. It is a tougher challenge to face more monsters of lower levels.
The party did not make it to this encounter in our latest session. But I plan on lettin them take it on when we next convene in march. I will let you guys know what happened.
The cleric is considering taking Alignment Channel as a feat, and I did hand out a magic item in our last session that allows your weapon to be aligned according to the wearers alignment (but no extra damage). I also will be giving the alchemist a pinch or 2 of Behir horn powder, that when added to his bomb mixture, changes it from fire to lightning.
And thanks again for all the comments, etc.
I think Pipdreamsam has it figured. I think you're going to be surprised by how fast the devil drops, assuming your players aren't very unlucky or very poorly arranged.
The party's 7 actions to his 1 is the biggest factor. All the melee guys are going to beat him into paste. The cleric will have things to do but the witch and alchemist may get bored or frustrated, so I'd consider giving them some easy mooks to clear.
The party's 7 actions to his 1 is the biggest factor. All the melee guys are going to beat him into paste. The cleric will have things to do but the witch and alchemist may get bored or frustrated, so I'd consider giving them some easy mooks to clear.
I have no doubt that they will beat the Devil into paste--but his barbs will almost certainly destroy them in the process.
They're all taking ~10.5 damage per attack they make, and the Devil has a very difficult to bypass DR (though the new developments certainly make it easier), so it will be a slog and the PCs are going to kill themselves trying to hurt it.
Outsiders in pathfinder (particularly demons and devils) are notoriously under CRed in my opinion.
I dont think that they should be taken at CR value and thrown at a lower level group. Spell resist and saving throws will have the effect of making them harder than estimated by CR. their abilities will make them much more effective than estimated by CR, not to mention the madness that ensues if he summons another barbed devil. if you play the devil with any intelligence you are likely to slaughter any group at that level.
I would say modify the devil to lower its resists and saves, or use a lower CR type of devil with some kind of cohorts like followers or lesser demon/devils supporting it to raise the CR of the encounter appropriately.
May I suggest a Bone Devil with a bearded devil cohort (which factors in the idea that between the two of them at least 1 more bearded devil will be summoned up)
Given the ability to prepare, the Cleric should have Align Weaponx4 memorised, if not on hand in consumable items. Channel mitigates ~14 per round to everyone if they don't bring reach weapons. The party size also being essentially almost two 7th level parties put together (1 plus 3/4th of a party), without any terrain surprises especially advantaging the devil, and barring bad luck, or poor planning, I agree with deiol and Alex the Rogue that it could well be a surprisingly anti-climactic 2-3 round fight.
I think it looks like a challenge, appropriate for your party. The last campaign I was in, it was TPK against BBEG like this. I learned from it and have adjusted strategy and become more careful.
Looking forward to seeing how it goes.
not to mention the madness that ensues if he summons another barbed devil. if you play the devil with any intelligence you are likely to slaughter any group at that level.
If that cleric doesn't have protection from evil communal up or a bunch of regular protection from evil spells up then he has failed them. If that cleric plays with any intelligence this encounter is pretty much auto-win.
They have "barbed defense" ability. If you strike it without using a reach weapon you take 1d8+6 damage.
I was hoping to hear how the encounter turned out! *grin*
Hey , just saw this thread pop back up.
The party was able to dispatch the Barbed Devil and his cohorts and live to tell the tale
There were a few things I should've done differently to make it more challenging. But alas, i always think of better ideas the next day...
Some of the posters above were correct in that having 7 actions to 1 made it a bit anti-climatic.
Also, I think i gave too many hints on what items would be most effective, instead of making the group prepare for it on their own, and dealing with the consequnces.
With 7 vs 1 I expect the party to dominate the encounter. '
It would be more challenging if you use one CR 10 monster, and 2 CR 6's. or 2 CR 8's, and 3 CR 5's
Hey Grumpus give us a play-by-play recap.