Hola,
I haven't lurked through the forums in a handful of months, and haven't kept up with the latest builds for Sword and Board Fighters. My group will be 10th level soon, and I would love to have one ready to roll if my current character is murderized.
The builds that I roughly remember used the shield as an offensive weapon a long with the AC bonus. I wish I could remember the exact builds =/
what exactly are you trying to accomplish? and what sort of campaign is it?
for any "fighter type" the fighter is a good class choice... if you make him (or her) human you'd have 12 feats at 10th (and weapon training with your sword and your shield). this is just off the top of my head but: you could take WF/Wpn Spec/IWF for both your sword and shield, 2Wpn Fgt/Imp 2Wpn Fgt/Gr 2Wpn Fgt, and Imp Sh Bash/Sh Slam/Sh Master (by 12th level, Gr 2Wpn and Sh Master both require +11 BAB, if memory serves). that should make you a pretty effective combatant and from there you can add Bull Rush feats (to benefit Sh Slam) and Sh Spec (for the extra AC).
though, if you're in a good party (and tend to fight enemies that are actually evil) i think the paladin makes a sick sword and board fighter... i know a lot of people might disagree, and it is more situational (the fighter being consistently better, with the paladin truly excelling in only certain circumstances) but allow me to make my case:
cons:instead of jacking up your strength (for hit/damage) and dex (for AC and 2wpn feats) you're going to focus on dex and cha- this will hurt your overall melee performace; you won't get armor training so you'll have to wear lighter armor to gain the benefit of your high dex- lowering your AC; you won't have weapon training, or half of the fighter's feats (which means no WF/Wpn Spec/IWF)
pros: lay on hands- if you're going sword and board you're presumably tanking, and nothing says hard-to-kill like the ability to lay hands on yourself as a free action each round (that requires a light shield, but since its your off-hand wpn it should be light anyway), and a high cha will let you do that a bunch; smite evil- this is the great equalizer... the fighter is better than you against all the fodder, but when it comes time to kill the legendary evil at the top-of-the-tower/bottom-of-the-dungeon you'll be adding your cha to all (6+) attack rolls, adding your level to all (6+) damage rolls, ignoring all DR, and getting an extra bonus to your AC equal to your cha modifier (see now why you focus on cha?)
is that always the right choice? no. but it's something a little different, and (i happen to know) if you play in a campaign where you get to fight big, mean, evil nasties it can be devastatingly effective. (though if your GM favors lots of neutral beasts, or tends to have you fight more groups and less 'bosses' go with the fighter). hope that's helpful!
I've never played a real SnB fighter, and saw a handful of really cool builds about three months ago, so I was hoping to pick the brains of anyone who might have a build with the newest material.
The build that interested me the most was using the shield for AoOs coupled with imp. shield bash making it so that they could do a improved bull rush with the shield attack.
I'd love him to be a high survive-ability fighter with moderate or better DPR.
Before I give any advice on this, will the lack of pounce be a huge hindrance? I would think a level 10 barbarian with shield fighting feats would be better just because he can have more full round attacks.
Before I give any advice on this, will the lack of pounce be a huge hindrance? I would think a level 10 barbarian with shield fighting feats would be better just because he can have more full round attacks.
Naw it wouldn't matter, I'm envisioning a Dwarven warrior type of shield fighter. Something that my group has never seen made into a real threat, and effective character. It doesn't have to be a Dwarf, just what comes to my mind's eye when I think of the character.
I like Dwarf a lot. I've considered this build a few times and I always seem to come back to at least 6 levels of ranger so you can grab shield slam at level 2 and shield master at level 6 with ranger feats. At level 10 you can even take Bashing Finish if you choose to. I also like the higher level spell progressions rangers have.
Longstrider makes up for the dwarfs lower movement.
Keep this in mind: A shield spike makes a large shield a 2d6 weapon. If you have the rangers lead blades spell going it's 3d6. It's worth thinking about.
Interesting cheese can be spread thick on dwarf rangers. You can swap your racial hatred out for Giants, use all your FE bonuses to stack Giant, and then when you cast Instant Enemy on some poor unsuspecting enemy cleric you get the massive +giant bonuses to hit and damage, and also the armor bonus you get from your race.
Certainly Ranger wears thin sometime around 14th level, I'd recommend a level of fighter just for heavy armor proficiency and an extra feat to play with at some point.
EDIT: Also Dwarves can swap out Stability racial trait for a flat bonus to bull rushing, another nice advantage.
Personally, I'd go with a human mobile fighter.
Human Fighter (Mobile Fighter) 10
17 Str (+2 race, +1 advancement), 17 Dex (+1 advancement), 14 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 8 Cha; 20-Point Buy
1st- Improved Shield Bash, Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting
2nd- Agility +1; Double Slice
3rd- Armor Training 1; Cleave
4th- +1 Dex; Cleaving Finish
5th- Leaping Attack +1; Combat Reflexes
6th- Agility +2; Shield Slam
7th- Armor Training 2; Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
8th- +1 Str; Improved Bull Rush
9th- Leaping Attack +2, Weapon Training 1 (Close); Great Cleave
10th- Agility +3; Improved Cleaving Finish
Why? Because at 11th level I get Rapid Attack (combine a full attack with a move, losing the highest iterative; however, I can still make four attacks at BAB +6/+1//+7/+2, counting penalties for two-weapon fighting and the Leaping Attack and Weapon Training bonuses; unlike the pouncing barbarian, I don't have to charge) and Two-Weapon Rend (as my 11th level feat choice).
I wouldn't bother with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting. I'd concentrate on feats to increase attack/bull rush/critical/damage bonuses from 11th level and up.
Instead of scimitar, I recommend taking the exotic weapon proficiency feat for a falcata.
I did the math, and its 19-20/x3 for it's crit range and damage is better than a scimitar's 18-20/x2. For each increase in threat range, on both weapons, the falcata does more damage than the scimitar.
Starts off better, and finishes even better than it started.
Falcata takes EWP. That's a pricy feat slot. As a dwarf, he's better off spending no feats and just grabbing a Dwarven Waraxe.
If you take a dwarf, your main problem is going to be mobility, so you'll have to invest in boots of striding or get hasted regularly.
Rangers get the shield tree feat sinfully early, and all the supplementals like FE, spell use/wand use, and lots of skill points can be hard to pass up.
On the other hand, once you hit 12th and get Shield Master, your +5 Heavy Shield just became a +7 weapon. A Spiked Bashing shield is one of the best weapons in the game. Basically, your focus becomes bashing with your shield, and you use your off hand for a Defending weapon, or something similar.
Note that in addition to your Shield being a +7 Weapon, you can still enchant it as a weapon! With the enhancement bonuses taken care of, you can ladle all sorts of goodies on top of it. It becomes a very expensive shield, however.
Basically, it comes down to how much you are going to use the shield. If you make it your primary weapon, you are going to do tremendous amounts of harm with it...but now you have to wonder what you are doing with your off-hand, if anything. IF the DM lets you wield it two-handed, problem solved.
==Aelryinth
On the other hand, once you hit 12th and get Shield Master, your +5 Heavy Shield just became a +7 weapon. (...)
Note that in addition to your Shield being a +7 Weapon, you can still enchant it as a weapon!==Aelryinth
Two points on that:
1) The shields enhancement bonus is stated to be added to attack and damage AS IF it were an enhancement bonus. Many DMs will rule that because it's treated as an enhancement bonus that it will not stack with the existing enhancement bonus.
2) If you enchant your shield spike under the above premise, you'd want to dump the requisite +1 (wasted) into it and then add effects to it, which would stack.
Shield master it's the key, unless you want to give up dealing damage (but then you risk being ignored by the enemies).
Rangers get it fast, but would you start at level 10 so no problems here.
Both fighter and ranger are viable.
Personally, the heavy MAD and the scarcity of feats would make me walk away from the paladin, but it may be possible too. Lay on hands surely it's nice (and I don't think you have to actually lay any hand on you, so you can use a heavy shield).
Fighters are solid of course, but a ranger is still great and his basically trading a bit of damage and a bit of AC for some cool abilities, a lot of skill points, spells (some of which are rather good) and when things will get serious you could approach or even surpass the fighter in damage dealing (guide archetype or instant enemy).
For me they are both great choices, it's mostly about what you want to do.
To use lay on hands you must have at elast on free hand per RAW, and james jacobs has posted that a light shield is ok for the paladin but a heavy and a weapon would block lay on hands from being used you would have to drop the other weapon.
I seem to recall the wording on that being a little different when I read it.
Check out the Brawler archetype. It's probably the best fighter archetype for people who want to fight with a shield. It does mean that you have to mainhand a close weapon, but the extra 2-3 damage it gives you over normal Weapon Training means that even the lowly tonfa does as much damage as a 1d10 or 1d12 weapon would with regular Weapon Training, which is better than you're going to get anywhere else. (Although its crits are wussier.) You can use a kukri if you're really interested in critting a lot, but shield builds are so ridiculously feat-hungry that it's hard to fit in too many crit feats. It also gives you abilities that help you protect the party a little bit and punish the heck out of enemies who can't get away.
The game I'm playing in is a 25point buy. The shield ranger sound interesting, not sure how well received it would be, might be called cheesy by a few :).
Guide Ranger using Sword and Shield sounds very interesting, anyone have a build for the Dwarven Fighter version?
Thanks so much for the feedback so far!
Dwarf with a sword?! Next, he will be shaving his beard and not is head!
My favourite is the two weapon warrior archtype for the twin weapon standard attacks and the twin aao's but mobile fighter is nice. I honestly think pounce and pounce like effects are overrated, you use it once per encounter and even though it ups your dpr by a decent chunk it stands out like a sore thumb in a group, if every pc has it its entirely acceptable for the gm to increase hit points to make pounce a non factor as it makes combat inanely boring or if only you have it your gm is well within his rights to have everything "agro" you since you just busted out a huge amount of damage that other party members can't hope to match, i'd happily ask you to tone it down so the other guys could play as well.
I like pounce as much as the next guy but if your playing in a team its a little too flashy for my tastes.
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* Humans are a dicey prospect. As a fighter, your saves will need, uh, help. A racial bonus to saves + lowlight/dark-vision is easily worth more than the WORST of all the feats you're going to be taking as a fighter. The consideration, then, is whether or not you need the extra skill points being human grants.
* Avoid Brawler or any other archetype which forfeits Weapon Training -- they are traps, as they forfeit the ability to wear Gloves of Dueling (the best item for fighters, bar none).
* Don't get fancy ideas about TWFing with your shield -- The point of S&B is fantastic AC and preventing monsters from reaching your allies.
* Don't be stupid -- an INT 14 nets you Combat Expertise, an important base feat, as well as jacking your AC up further when you need it (and you will need it).
= = = = =
Half-elf (just because most people don't like being dwarves for some reason), 25pt buy
STR+17 (all bumps)
DEX:14
CON:16
INT:14
WIS:12
CHA:07
racial alternative trait: Ancestral Arms
character traits: Defender of the Society, Elven Reflexes
01 barb1 [Urban][Crowd Control][Controlled Rage], Extra Rage, EWP:Falcata
02 barb2 [Uncanny Dodge][Rage Power:Guarded Life], rage 15r/day
03 cava1 [Gendarme][Power Attack][Challenge][Order of the Warrior], Raging Vitality
04 fight1 (no archetype), STR>18, Cleave
05 fight2 [Bravery+1], Dodge, Mobility
Equipment: four-mirror armor, +1 heavy shield, adamantine falcata, javelins
Class skills: Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (engineering)(dungeoneering)(local)(history)(nature)(nobility), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str)
06 fight3 [Armor Training+1/move normal:medium]
07 fight4 Iron Will, Combat Expertise
08 fight5 [Weapon Training+1:Heavy Blades] (buy Gloves of Dueling)
09 fight6 {Bravery+2], Critical Focus, Mounted Combat
10 fight7 [Armor Training+2/move normal:heavy]
At 10th, buy adamantine full-plate (previous to this, do not upgrade the mirror-armor, instead using money to upgrade other aspects of AC, such as shields, rings, etc). Take Mounted Combat earlier if quick access to better figurines of wondrous power, or summoner in party.
On the other hand, once you hit 12th and get Shield Master, your +5 Heavy Shield just became a +7 weapon. (...)
Note that in addition to your Shield being a +7 Weapon, you can still enchant it as a weapon!==Aelryinth
Two points on that:
1) The shields enhancement bonus is stated to be added to attack and damage AS IF it were an enhancement bonus. Many DMs will rule that because it's treated as an enhancement bonus that it will not stack with the existing enhancement bonus.
2) If you enchant your shield spike under the above premise, you'd want to dump the requisite +1 (wasted) into it and then add effects to it, which would stack.
The ultimate goal of any Shield Fighter is the Uber Shield: a Shield of bashing +5, +5 Defender. This is a 100k Shield that can net you out with +12 to AC...and still give you a +7 Weapon to attack with, because the Defender Enhancement bonus is only needed for defense, the Shield Bonus keeps it +7 to attack.
Yes, that's right. You have a Weapon +7, granting you +12 AC. Nice, no?
You can, of course, trick it out as your ultimate stacking weapon, with bunches of +d6 enhancements, but I consider it a waste.
As for the above comment:
You don't want to overinvest in TWF if you are a shield master. Getting one extra attack at full is more then enough if you are allowed a full attack action. The lousy crit range means that it will always be a worse weapon then a greatsword, but it is THE best off hand weapon you can use. Well, except maybe for a sun sword...
A spiked shield deals piercing and blunt damage. A dwarven Waraxe deals slashing. Nice confluence, no?
The key with a shield build is knowing when NOT to use.
If you have to hit and do damage and AC isn't a factor (either you're going to get hit, or you're not, regardless), don't use the shield and go two handed.
If you need the shield to tank, use it and hit reliably.
If you're surrounded by minions and the like, and can take a full attack action, TWF, get the extra shield attack, and start throwing stuff around. Once you get iMp Shield Bash and can do this without sacrificing AC, works get.
Once get Shield Rush, you can now Bull Rush freely with a bash. Now you become a tactical player with charges and the like, moving the enemy around like playing pong.
But, you'll need a good movement rate to do all this effectively. In no case should you skip taking extra feats to increase the damage of your primary weapon.
Are you allowed 3.5 feats and magic. There's some nice ones out there for you..
==Aelryinth
my original post specifically clarified that you'd need to use a little shield to benefit from lay on hands...
Fun thread