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I can't find this specifically about the Bladebound Magus so I'll ask here.
A Bladebound Magus, say 3rd to 7th level where they have only 1 attack, can use his Blade to cast a Touch Spell as a melee strike as per Spellstrike.
If they do Spellstrike, can they still take a swing with their Blade in a normal melee attack or do they suffer penalties?
From my understanding, it would look like this:
Melee no Spellstrike: Normal attack at full bonus vs Full AC, second hand can be used to make the Blade hit harder
Melee w/Spellstrike: Normal attack at full bonus vs Full AC, second hand must be free
Melee and Spellstrike: -4/-4 or -6/-10 for two attacks vs Full AC. As normal, the -6 stays with all subsequent attacks if he has multiple attacks. They can take the Spellstrike attack on any one of there attacks. Still the 2nd hand must be free
Melee with Spell Combat (non "To Hit" spell): -2 to hit with all melee attacks, second hand must be free
Melee w/Spellstrike with Spell Combat (non "To Hit" spell): -2 to hit with all melee attacks, second hand must be free
Melee with Spell Combat ("To Hit" attack spell): -4 to hit with all attacks, second hand must be free
Melee w/Spellstrike with Spell Combat ("To Hit" attack spell): not allowed
If this is not where this belongs or you have already heard/argued/the rules been clarified somewhere else, I'd appreciate it
Firstly, a Black Blade cannot cast a touch spell as a melee strike, so I'm unsure of what you're misinterpreting here. A magus can channel a touch spell through his weapon and use it to deliver the touch spell with a melee strike, yes.
Melee no Spellstrike: Normal attack at full bonus vs Full AC, second hand can be used to make the Blade hit harder Yes.
Melee w/Spellstrike: Normal attack at full bonus vs Full AC, second hand must be free Yes.
Melee and Spellstrike: -4/-4 or -6/-10 for two attacks vs Full AC. As normal, the -6 stays with all subsequent attacks if he has multiple attacks. They can take the Spellstrike attack on any one of there attacks. Still the 2nd hand must be free No. They are not two-weapon wielding and do not take penalties for two weapon wielding. Spellcombat allows a spellcast and all melee attacks granted by BAB. You may channel a spellstrike as part of the spellcast which is granted by spellcombat, granting you an additional melee attack to deliver your touch spell. They take a -2 on attacks for performing Spell Combat. Spellcasting, and thusly spellstrike, strike must be performed first or after the Magus's melee attacks. I'm not entirely sure what "Melee and Spellstrike" is at all, to be completely honest, and you should elaborate because it means as much as if you'd written "Spellstriking double pickle attack."
Melee with Spell Combat (non "To Hit" spell): -2 to hit with all melee attacks, second hand must be free Yes.
Melee w/Spellstrike with Spell Combat (non "To Hit" spell): -2 to hit with all melee attacks, second hand must be free Yes.
Melee with Spell Combat ("To Hit" attack spell): -4 to hit with all attacks, second hand must be free No. See Melee with Spell Combat (non "To Hit" spell) for how this attack is resolved.
Melee w/Spellstrike with Spell Combat ("To Hit" attack spell): not allowed Completely allowed. Where do you see it is not?
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Thanks but to clarify as you've requested, the Magus has essentially 4 options:
Standard Melee Attack
Spellstrike (Melee attack channeling a touch attack spell)
Spell Combat A: Non touch attack
Spell Combat B: Touch Attack
I know the Magus can do and the penalties are:
1: Any singular act of the four options above
2: Standard Melee Attack AND Spell Combat A: Non touch attack (at -2 to hit with the Standard Melee Attack)
3: Spellstrike AND Spell Combat A: Non touch attack (at -2 to hit with the Spellstrike attack)
The following actions are what's in question. Of these, what combinations are allowed or not? If allowed are there penalties associated with it?
4: Standard Melee Attack AND Spellstrike (Essentially 2 swings with their weapon and casting a spell all in 1 round - yes I know the "Touch Attack Spell" means just that but isn't that still 2 swings with the same weapon?)
5: Standard Melee Attack AND Spell Combat B (as above but let's be honest 2 swings and 2 spell castings)
6: Standard Melee Attack AND Spellstrike AND Spell Combat A (let's be honest that what we're saying is this really comes down to 2 swings - even if one is the resolution of a Touch Spell - and 2 spell castings)
7: Standard Melee Attack AND Spellstrike AND Spell Combat B (as above but now we have 2 swings (one is the Touch Spell) and 2 spell castings AND another touch attack)
So let's look at #5 in game play:
A 6th Level Magus Bladebound attacks. After you add all bonuses (Str, BAB, Sword bonus, etc) has a +10 to hit
The Magus first action is to cast "Enlarge Person" on themselves and that gives their Str a +1 so their new situational bonus is +11
The Magus second action is they swing with their Standard Melee Attack at +9 (the +11 has to -2 for melee and Spell Combat)
Their third action has the Magus using their Spellstrike (Shocking Grasp which gives a +3 as their opponent is in metal armor) and adds +12 (the +14 has to -2 for melee and Spell Combat)
Is that okay per the rules?
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Oops,
The example I gave was actually #6 in game play:
A 6th Level Magus Bladebound attacks. After you add all bonuses (Str, BAB, Sword bonus, etc) they have a +10 to hit
The Magus first action is to cast "Enlarge Person" on themselves and that gives their Str a +1 so their new situational bonus is +11
The Magus second action is they swing with their Standard Melee Attack at +9 (the +11 has to -2 for melee and Spell Combat)
Their third action has the Magus using their Spellstrike (Shocking Grasp which gives a +3 as their opponent is in metal armor) and adds +12 (the +14 has to -2 for melee and Spell Combat)
Standard Melee AttackSpellstrike (Melee attack channeling a touch attack spell)
Spell Combat A: Non touch attack
Spell Combat B: Touch Attack
Sort of. He can attack normally like everyone else, either with a standard action or full-attack. Or, he can use Spell Combat, which is a full-round action where he can cast a spell with one hand, and make his full-attack with the weapon in his other hand.
2: Standard Melee Attack AND Spell Combat A: Non touch attack (at -2 to hit with the Standard Melee Attack)
The -2 penalty from Spell Combat applies to all attack rolls he makes that turn, including any touch attack granted as part of casting a touch spell.
3: Spellstrike AND Spell Combat A: Non touch attack (at -2 to hit with the Spellstrike attack)
Again, if he uses Spell Combat, it's a -2 penalty to ALL attack rolls. Both delivering the touch spell via spellstrike, and his normal iterative attacks.
4: Standard Melee Attack AND Spellstrike (Essentially 2 swings with their weapon and casting a spell all in 1 round - yes I know the "Touch Attack Spell" means just that but isn't that still 2 swings with the same weapon?)
No. Casting a spell is (usually) a standard action, and attack is either a standard action or a full-round action. The way to do this is to use Spell Combat - which allows you to cast a spell with your off-hand, and make your regular melee attack with the other hand.
If you have a held charge from a touch spell, you can deliver that touch spell as a standard action, or as part of any attack. Meaning, if you cast Shocking Grasp a while back and still haven't discharged it, you can still touch someone (standard action) or hit them with your sword and discharge the spell via spellstrike.
5: Standard Melee Attack AND Spell Combat B (as above but let's be honest 2 swings and 2 spell castings)
No idea what this means.
If you use Spell Combat you can cast a spell, and make your attacks. Lets say you decide to cast first, you cast Shocking Grasp. As part of casting a touch spell, you get a free touch attack. So you could then touch something to try to discharge the spell. Or, since you have the Spellstrike ability, you could make a melee attack (vs normal AC) and try to discharge the spell that way, which also grants your weapon damage if you hit. So you cast your spell, made your free attack, now you have your normal iterative attacks with your main hand. If you missed the first attack, and still have Shocking Grasp activated, it can discharge with the first attack you land.
6: Standard Melee Attack AND Spellstrike AND Spell Combat A (let's be honest that what we're saying is this really comes down to 2 swings - even if one is the resolution of a Touch Spell - and 2 spell castings)
I think this is correct. Using Spell Combat, cast a touch spell, get your free attack as part of casting the spell, then get your normal weapon attacks. If you used Spellstrike to deliver the free touch attack with your weapon, then yes, you would get two swings of your sword.
7: Standard Melee Attack AND Spellstrike AND Spell Combat B (as above but now we have 2 swings (one is the Touch Spell) and 2 spell castings AND another touch attack)
This is completely unclear. You can't cast twice unless the spell is a swift action.
A 6th Level Magus Bladebound attacks. After you add all bonuses (Str, BAB, Sword bonus, etc) has a +10 to hit
The Magus first action is to cast "Enlarge Person" on themselves and that gives their Str a +1 so their new situational bonus is +11
The Magus second action is they swing with their Standard Melee Attack at +9 (the +11 has to -2 for melee and Spell Combat)
Their third action has the Magus using their Spellstrike (Shocking Grasp which gives a +3 as their opponent is in metal armor) and adds +12 (the +14 has to -2 for melee and Spell Combat)
Enlarge Person has a casting time of 1 round, so you can't cast it as part of Spell Combat. Even if you had cast it a round earlier, the +2 bonus to Strength is balanced by the -1 to hit.
Spellstrike is not an action. Here is what Spellstrike does:
If you have cast a spell with range of touch from the magus spell list, then you can deliver that spell with your weapon, instead of only with a touch or natural/unarmed attack.
So if you haven't yet cast Shocking Grasp, you can't use Spellstrike to deliver it.
Here's what your scenario should look like:
Round 1: Magus casts Enlarge Person on himself. He's now large, and has reach, etc.
Round 2: Magus uses Spell Combat (A full-round action). He chooses to attack first, so he makes his full attack with his weapon, at -2 penalty. (1 attack at level 6 unless he is under Haste, or whatever) After that, with his off-hand, he casts Shocking Grasp. As part of casting, he gets a free touch attack. He can either make that touch attack (at -2 penalty, but vs Touch AC) or he can use Spellstrike to make that attack with his weapon (at -2 penalty, but vs Normal AC).
If he uses the touch attack, then he would get the +3 vs metal armor. Depending on DM, he may or may not get the +3 if using Spellstrike to deliver it. (I would allow it, others might not)
The key to understanding the Magus is understanding how touch spells work, and Holding the Charge.
I'll take this opportunity to link the Spellstrike FAQ thread in case anyone wishes to add a FAQ tag to it.
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First, you can not spell strike with a spell that doesn't allow a touch attack. Get that out of your mind.
Yup, got that. I made sure to have it clarified when I described a Spellstrike Attack
Spellstrike (Melee attack channeling a touch attack spell)
If you want to use a melee strike then cast something like color spray, that's fine, but you're only getting your normal melee strike (at -2, per spell combat) and the spell.
Which is covered under my example #2
2: Standard Melee Attack AND Spell Combat A: Non touch attack (at -2 to hit with the Standard Melee Attack)
Spell strike can be used with spell combat to allow the magus, at 2nd level and above, to make multiple melee strikes, but the spell must meet the rules of spell combat, ie. be a touch attack spell. This means that the magus gets to make 2 attacks (at -2, per spell combat) and cast a spell, which is delivered by one of the attacks.
Got that too but there's two possible versions of this:
The one where it is JUST as SPell Strike and a Non Touch Attack Spell or example #3
3: Spellstrike AND Spell Combat A: Non touch attack (at -2 to hit with the Spellstrike attack)
Then there's version #6
6: Standard Melee Attack AND Spellstrike AND Spell Combat A (let's be honest that what we're saying is this really comes down to 2 swings - even if one is the resolution of a Touch Spell - and 2 spell castings)
Which is also the example I gave
It is important to note that the magus can choose the order in which to do all of this so the magus could cast the spell, then spell strike, then regular strike, or he could regular strike, then cast the spell, then spell strike.
So If I'm reading you correctly, the Magus can do the Example I gave:
A 6th Level Magus Bladebound attacks. After you add all bonuses (Str, BAB, Sword bonus, etc) they have a +10 to hit
The Magus first action is to cast "Enlarge Person" on themselves and that gives their Str a +1 so their new situational bonus is +11
The Magus second action is they swing with their Standard Melee Attack at +9 (the +11 has to -2 for melee and Spell Combat)
Their third action has the Magus using their Spellstrike (Shocking Grasp which gives a +3 as their opponent is in metal armor) and adds +12 (the +14 has to -2 for melee and Spell Combat)
Is that correct?
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Said a lot
Thank You, I think that's what I needed
Forgot about the "only 1 action casting time"
Also, casting a Spell like Shocking Grasp is still casting a Spell so they must take the -2 to hit
So to make sure what we have here:
A 6th Level Magus Bladebound attacks. After you add all bonuses (Str, BAB, Sword bonus, etc) has a +10 to hit
1st round:
The Magus first action is to cast "Bull's Strength" a 1 Standard Action on themselves and that gives their Str a +2 so their new situational bonus is +12
The Magus second action is they swing with their Standard Melee Attack at +12 (the +12 has to -2 for melee and Spell Combat)
2nd round:
The Magus first action in the 2nd round is to cast "Shocking Grasp" a 1 Standard Action on themselves. This is their "Spellstrike" and as Shocking Grasp gives a +3 as their opponent is in metal armor) and adds +13 (the +10 with +3 for metal armor has to take -2 for melee and Spell Combat)
The Magus second action in the 2nd Round is they swing with their Standard Melee Attack at +10 (the +12 has to -2 for melee and Spell Combat)
Note for both: They can swing with their standard melee attack first and then cast a spell for Spell Combat AND Spellstrike (if touch attack spell)
Their "Spell Combat" used to give themselves "Bull's Strength". They can't use Spellstrike that round as they didn't cast a Touch Attack.
Can the Magus cast a Touch Spell AND not use the Spellstrike? Even though they would be taking 2 attacks, one with the sword on the Standard Melee and the other attack via Touch Attack so is that just -2 for each or the standard -6/-10 for two handed attack?
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Got it. The Spell Combat is what starts the Spellstrike if the Magus chooses to use their weapon to deliver the touch attack.Got that too but there's two possible versions of this:
The one where it is JUST as Spell Strike and a Non Touch Attack Spell or example #3
3: Spellstrike AND Spell Combat A: Non touch attack (at -2 to hit with the Spellstrike attack)
No. If you're using only a standard action to cast a spell and using spell strike to deliver that spell, you're not using spell combat at all.
Got it
Only 1 Standard Action or less time for a spell for Spell Combat
A Magus only gets a Standard Melee and Spellstrike "Melee" attack if the Spell used has a 1 Standard Action or less Casting time AND it is a Touch Attack.
No, on several factors.
1st) Enlarge person doesn't grant you +1 to hit. (It increases your strength by 2, granting a +1, but it increases your size by 1 which gives you -1 to hit.)
2) You can only cast 1 spell per round.
It should look like this:
First round:
Magus uses spell combat. He casts enlarge person, then takes a melee strike at -2.
Second round:
Magus uses spell combat and spell strike. He casts shocking grasp, makes a melee attack at +3 (shocking grasp versus metal armor) and -2 (spell combat) for a total of +1. If he hits, shocking grasp does its damage. Then he gets to make a second attack, his "normal" attack, at -2.
Thank You
I think this should have been explained further with examples in the book
Trust me, there's a lot of confusion in our group
A 6th Level Magus Bladebound attacks. After you add all bonuses (Str, BAB, Sword bonus, etc) has a +10 to hit1st round:
The Magus first action is to cast "Bull's Strength" a 1 Standard Action on themselves and that gives their Str a +2 so their new situational bonus is +12
The Magus second action is they swing with their Standard Melee Attack at +12 (the +12 has to -2 for melee and Spell Combat)
Close. Bull's Strength grants +4 strength, which equals (in most cases) a +2 to hit (and damage). This does put his normal attack bonus at +12.
When he uses Spell Combat, he takes -2 to all attack rolls that round. So when he makes his Melee attack (which is NOT a standard action, it's a full-attack) his bonus would be at +10. (Normal bonus of +12, and -2 penalty from Spell Combat)
2nd round:
The Magus first action in the 2nd round is to cast "Shocking Grasp" a 1 Standard Action on themselves. This is their "Spellstrike" and as Shocking Grasp gives a +3 as their opponent is in metal armor) and adds +13 (the +10 with +3 for metal armor has to take -2 for melee and Spell Combat)
Bull's Strength is still up (it would last for 6 minutes) so his bonus is still normally +12. If your DM rules that the +3 applies for Spellstrike and not just touch attacks, then yes, a total bonus of +13 to hit. (+12 normal, -2 Spell Combat, +3 Shocking Grasp)
The Magus second action in the 2nd Round is they swing with their Standard Melee Attack at +10 (the +12 has to -2 for melee and Spell Combat)
Yes, though if he missed the first attack, then he still had a held charge of Shocking Grasp, so on this second attack if he hits, he would discharge the spell in addition to his weapon damage.
Note for both: They can swing with their standard melee attack first and then cast a spell for Spell Combat AND Spellstrike (if touch attack spell)
Yes, he can attack, then cast, or he can cast, then attack. It's often better to cast first, so if you miss your free attack, you can still discharge the spell on the next attack.
Their "Spell Combat" used to give themselves "Bull's Strength". They can't use Spellstrike that round as they didn't cast a Touch Attack.
Correct!
Can the Magus cast a Touch Spell AND not use the Spellstrike? Even though they would be taking 2 attacks, one with the sword on the Standard Melee and the other attack via Touch Attack so is that just -2 for each or the standard -6/-10 for two handed attack?
Yes, Spellstrike is optional.
A Magus can use Spell Combat, cast Shocking Grasp, make his normal TOUCH attack (at -2 penalty from Spell Combat) vs Touch AC, and then make his normal iterative attacks with his weapon (also at -2 penalty). If the touch misses, he can use Spellstrike on his weapon attacks to try to discharge the spell that way.
The Magus is not using Two-Weapon Fighting, so the -6/-10 (or whatever) penalties never apply with Spell Combat.
Examples of Spell Combat:
Cast Shield on self. Take 5' step. Attack orc with sword.
Cast Scorching Ray at Orc (at -2 penalty). Take 5' step. Attack orc with sword.
Cast Shocking Grasp, take 5' step, make free attack (either Touch or with sword via Spellstrike), attack orc with sword.
Attack orc with sword, take 5' step, cast Invisibility.