Any way to increase the Max Dex on a Tower Shield?


Rules Questions

The Exchange

Normally I would post this on the Rules section, but I need a PF Society answer.

In the Rules area there are posts that talk about using Mithril to increase the Max Dex on a Tower Shield, but that is not RAW, so I don't think it would work for us in PFSOP.

I have a character with a Dex bonus of +3 (or more). I want to use a Tower Shield with him (in RP - basicly he's a Halfling using his Lord's shield - modified to be a Tower Shield for him. Gives me a great chance to play a happy underling/man servant. Just the image of this halfling lugging around a human shield...). I'll likely go with it even if he gets stuck loosing part of his Dex to AC - but I figured I'd ask and see if any of you wonderfully helpful persons out there knew something that might help.

Darkwood would drop the ACP (by -2 I think), and cut the weight in half, but what about the Max Dex of +2?

Thanks for you help!

Liberty's Edge

nosig wrote:
Normally I would post this on the Rules section, but I need a PF Society answer.

Good luck -- the last time I tried, I was advised to try the Rules forum (which, par for the course, is 99% unhelpful in these types of situations if you're looking for a definitive yay/nay). :-P

I am in the "if it makes sense" camp of looking at tower shields: I.e., while the book describes a tower shield as being made of wood -- presumably because almost nobody would be able to even lift something made of about two manhole covers' worth of 1"-thick non-magical steel -- there isn't any intrinsic logical reason why a lighter special "fantasy" kind of metal couldn't be substituted, if at onerous cost. Since a Heavy Mithral Shield costs 1020gp, I assume that a larger tower shield made of the stuff gets bumped up into the next size category; i.e., you'd be paying the cost of mithral equivalent to medium armor.

However, while many GMs wouldn't mind you blowing +4,000gp and nerfing your attack-bonus, there may in fact be the odd PFS judge or two who'd say you can't -- so YMMV.

Quote:
I have a character with a Dex bonus of +3 (or more). I want to use a Tower Shield with him (in RP - basically he's a Halfling using his Lord's shield - modified to be a Tower Shield for him. Gives me a great chance to play a happy underling/man servant. Just the image of this halfling lugging around a human shield...). I'll likely go with it even if he gets stuck loosing part of his Dex to AC - but I figured I'd ask and see if any of you wonderfully helpful persons out there knew something that might help.
Three to nine levels of Fighter[Tower Shield Specialist] archetype (Ultimate Combat) not only grant AC bonuses to both the shield and armor, but eventually negate the -2 attack penalty and let you apply the shield bonus to touch-AC (the Zoinks! factor, as it permits you to be about the only heavy-armor type in the game that can waltz through ray and grapple attacks). ...IMO it's a trap archetype, however (the moment other fighters buy their Gloves of Dueling, their attack bonus is actually better while eating a -2 from a tower shield than is the Tower Shield Specialist's).
Quote:
Darkwood would drop the ACP (by -2 I think), and cut the weight in half, but what about the Max Dex of +2?

The obvious downside of any halfling concept is that stacking a -2 attack upon your already diminished strength leaves you pretty penalized versus regular fighters. (It IS a better exchange than Combat Expertise, however.) A DEX-based Weapon Finesse approach caters to your racial bonuses, but denies Dervish Dance (since your shield hand isn't empty)...not a problem if you intend to use the Agile weapon enhancement (but this requires waiting until 4th minumum with an Amulet of Mighty Fists w/Unarmed Strikes, or halfway through 5th for a +1/Agile weapon).

You can't use a tower shield mounted -- which eliminate any utility it would grant to a cavalier or bonded-mount paladin (among the strongest roles for halflings in PFS, and possibly the only good roles for those who choose to wear heavy armor).

= = = =

This doesn't help you with tower shields, but you might find it more fun as a halfling in PFS who serves a "lord" in some knightly manner:

STR-13, DEX+14, CON:14, INT:12, WIS:12, CHA+14
racial trait: outrider

Use a lance or a bow while mounted; mithral buckler and breastplate or four-mirror armor early, then upgraded to mithral breastplate or mithral full-plate (depending upon how far you're going to bump DEX).

Class: cavalier or paladin, or a multiclass incorporating them with the Boon Companion feat. (Note that there are a lot of mounted halflings in PFS, particularly Cockatrice cavaliers, so you'll have to work a bit to bring that "I'm unique!" feeling to the table.) (Warning: do NOT make a strength-dumping cleric doing this, or you will have the floatation and flight characteristics of a cannonball the first time you fail an unwanted Swim or Climb check.)


Instead, you could consider that a medium heavy shield would be a two-handed wrong sized item for a halfling. You'd still have the -2 to attacks, but no max dex problem. You'd be a two hand fighter that also takes the shield feats. Kinda like Tyrion in that fight vs the hill tribes. If you can manage to get spikes and bashing on it, it wouldn't be that awful.

Liberty's Edge

Cult of Vorg wrote:
Instead, you could consider that a medium heavy shield would be a two-handed wrong sized item for a halfling. You'd still have the -2 to attacks, but no max dex problem.

I'm not certain if you can even do that -- while you can bash with a shield (as if it were a weapon), there isn't a section in the CRB for "Inappropriately sized ___" armor or shields (as there is for weapons).

(Also, he wouldn't get the +4 AC anyway because it's not a tower-shield -- so there's no reason he'd want to do it in the first place.)

Grand Lodge

Mithral Masterwork/Magical Shield

The Exchange

BB36 wrote:
Mithral Masterwork/Magical Shield

Can't make a Tower Shield out of Mithral - it's wooden (unless there is a different source for changing it) - and Masterwork only improves the Armor Check Pen., not the Max Dex.- Magical will just raise the Shield bonus, unless there is something else (magical) that raises Max Dex (I know of nothing, which is why I posted the question).

The Exchange

Mike, why do you say "You can't use a tower shield mounted"? I know DMs who house rule this way, some of them also rule that you can't use pole arms or 2-H-Swords mounted - but those are all house rules and don't apply in PFSOP. Unless I'm missing something (which happens!), it looks like it would just give the rider a -10 on ride checks (or a -9 for Masterwork, -8 for Darkwood) due to the ACP.

Grand Lodge

nosig wrote:
BB36 wrote:
Mithral Masterwork/Magical Shield
Can't make a Tower Shield out of Mithral - it's wooden (unless there is a different source for changing it) - and Masterwork only improves the Armor Check Pen., not the Max Dex.- Magical will just raise the Shield bonus, unless there is something else (magical) that raises Max Dex (I know of nothing, which is why I posted the question)

The reason Tower Shields were made of wood is otherwise the things would weigh 65lbs to 70lbs if made of Iron or Steel (extrapolating from the Heavy Wooden Shield of 10lbs and that a Heavy Metal shield is 50% heavier at 15lbs)

Lugging that thing would be the last thing anyone would want to do

But if one had enough Mithril, it would weigh half as much, from page 155 of the Core Rulebook, or about 35lbs

I wouldn't give it the full 2 point max Dex bonus, but 1.

Just my $0.02 or 3000 drachmas

The Exchange

BB36 wrote:
nosig wrote:
BB36 wrote:
Mithral Masterwork/Magical Shield
Can't make a Tower Shield out of Mithral - it's wooden (unless there is a different source for changing it) - and Masterwork only improves the Armor Check Pen., not the Max Dex.- Magical will just raise the Shield bonus, unless there is something else (magical) that raises Max Dex (I know of nothing, which is why I posted the question)

The reason Tower Shields were made of wood is otherwise the things would weigh 65lbs to 70lbs if made of Iron or Steel (extrapolating from the Heavy Wooden Shield of 10lbs and that a Heavy Metal shield is 50% heavier at 15lbs)

Lugging that thing would be the last thing anyone would want to do

But if one had enough Mithril, it would weigh half as much, from page 155 of the Core Rulebook, or about 35lbs

I wouldn't give it the full 2 point max Dex bonus, but 1.

Just my $0.02 or 3000 drachmas

Max Dex bonus would be all the Dex you could count while using the shield. So.... if you give a Max Dex of +1 it is actually worse than the +2. Unless you ment to restrict the shield use more for lightening it (making it from Mithril). Anyway, this would be a DM call, so that makes it not workable in PFSOP. Great for a home game thou... just not workable for this character.

But thanks!

Grand Lodge

nosig wrote:

The reason Tower Shields were made of wood is otherwise the things would weigh 65lbs to 70lbs if made of Iron or Steel (extrapolating from the Heavy Wooden Shield of 10lbs and that a Heavy Metal shield is 50% heavier at 15lbs)

Lugging that thing would be the last thing anyone would want to do

But if one had enough Mithril, it would weigh half as much, from page 155 of the Core Rulebook, or about 35lbs

I wouldn't give it the full 2 point max Dex bonus, but 1.

Just my $0.02 or 3000 drachmas

Max Dex bonus would be all the Dex you could count while using the shield. So.... if you give a Max Dex of +1 it is actually worse than the +2. Unless you ment to restrict the shield use more for lightening it (making it from Mithril). Anyway, this would be a DM call, so that makes it not workable in PFSOP. Great for a home game thou... just not workable for this character.

But thanks!

Just to make sure we're on the same page, the maximum Dex Bonus for a normal Tower Shield is +2

Armor made of Mithril normally raises the maximum Dex Bonus by +2 but as I don't think it would be 1/2 the weight of the normal wood a Tower Shield is made of but 2/3, I'd say it's maximum allowed Dex bonus is +3 not +4

It's AC Check would be -7 not -10

Just clarifying

Grand Lodge

Darkwood?

Liberty's Edge

The OP's character was a halfling, so his gear weighs half again as much (meaning that the ungainly hypothetical 100lbs steel tower-shield would become a much more manageable 25lbs mithral one for him).

Grand Lodge

Yeah, the OP is a Halfling, I was just going by standard Armor rules.

Good catch

The Exchange

blackbloodtroll wrote:
Darkwood?

Darkwood lists a reduction of Armor Check Pen. (-2), and less weight, but no bonus to Max Dex (I would think it's because you don't have much wooden armor - and the only shield with a Max Dex is the Tower Shield).

So, no, Darkwood would not help.

But thanks for the suggestion!

The Exchange

Mike Schneider wrote:
The OP's character was a halfling, so his gear weighs half again as much (meaning that the ungainly hypothetical 100lbs steel tower-shield would become a much more manageable 25lbs mithral one for him).

Doesn't matter anyway, unless there is a source that gives stats on a metal Tower Shield (legal in PFSOP), looks like this is a non-issue. I'll just go with the Darkwood shield and live with the Max Dex of +2 (unless I go for the Tower Shield Fighter sub-class).

THanks for all your help everyone!


How much would a Mithral Tower Shield Weigh?
We should figure out how much wood weighs in relation to Mithral.
A Heavy Wooden Shield weighs 10 and a Heavy Steel Shield weights 15.

So a Tower Shield which is made out of wood so if we wanted to find how much a steel Tower Shield weighs we need only multiply the weight of the Tower by the weight ratio of wood to steel (1.5).

(45)x(1.5)=67.5 pounds As expected that is a heavy Tower Shield.

If an metal item is made out of Mithral we know it would weight half as much. So we take our metal Tower Shield at 67.5 and divide that in half.

(67.5)/(2)=33.75 pounds a heavy but manageable shield. Notably it weighs less then the wooden shield.
Mithral
Type of Item Item Cost Modifier
Light armor +1,000 gp
Medium armor +4,000 gp
Heavy armor +9,000 gp
Shield +1,000 gp
Other items +500 gp/lb.

It would cost 1000 or perhaps 17000 if it was included as and other item.

However you are still stuck with that Maximum Dex Bonus

P.S. I think Tower Shield Training (Ex) Does not affect the maximum Dexterity bonus as it specifies armor. However i think this is a miss print.

At 3rd level, a tower shield specialist gains armor training as normal, but while he employs a tower shield, the armor penalty is reduced by 3 and the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor increases by 2.

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