All,
Our group is about to start a new Pathfinder game. I had been expecting to play an Inquisitor, but my friend is really psyched to try one. And since I am the one lighting a fire under the othets, I decided to keep my Inquisitor for the future.
So, I have been wanting to make a halforc rogue. How should I approach it?
The game is a 25 point buy so I was thinking Str 17, dex 16, con 14, int 13, wis 10, cha 10. I was wanting to play up the assumpton that he is tough, and use one of the racial two handed weapons. Great axe or Falchion. It sucks that I have to burn a feat to get the orc double axe. It is martial for me but I am not a martial class so I am no better off than a human getting it (feat burn). Worse really since they get a free feat.
Anyway, I was thinking of just cranking 20 levels of rogue and taking a combat feat every time. Going with combat expertise, imp feint, vital strike, power attack. If I used the double axe, I could take the 2 wpn fighting line. Also imp init, quick draw, and maybe improved crit on orc axe, maybe kukri also.
Also, I kinda want the armor training feat and medium armor so that much later I could buy a mithril breastplate and have no armor penalty.
But I definitely want some two handed action, and I prefer 20 levels of rogue with no dipping. I want the most sneak attack possible, as soon as possible, even if other combos are more efficient. Or I think I do. ;)
But anyway, I dunno.
Help? Thoughts?
Thanks!
What do you envision your rogue doing during the game?
What do you envision your rogue doing during the game?
Definately this.
The second question would be, can any of this not be done with the ninja?
I have a similar half orc in our Kingmaker campaign (I'm 5th lv). I do not have the chac sheet so I cannot do an exact comparison. We roll stats so they are not going to be identical. I started with 18 str. Got imp feign as quickly as possible. Then went for dazzling display.
It is certainly holding its own against the Dwarven Ranger and human Paladin (with a 1 lv dip into cleric) in terms of combat effectiveness, but is obviously a bit of a glass cannon. He then has all the rogue skill to fall back on. I like the character
Anyway, I was thinking of just cranking 20 levels of rogue and taking a combat feat every time.
Just for clarification -- if you're thinking of spending your normal feats at odd levels on combat feats -- sure, go for it. But if you're thinking you can take the combat trick rogue talent every other level...
A rogue cannot select an individual talent more than once.
I think at best a Swashbuckler archetype can take the Combat Feat twice.
You may have noted that, but I just want to be sure.
As for weapons, are you allowed APG material? I would assume so since you mentioned Inquisitor.
In that case, consider the chain fighter alternate racial trait for the half-orc. This replaces half-orc weapon proficiencies with flail, heavy flail, and spiked chain. Heavy flail is a great two handed weapon if you decide you want to go that route. Certainly if you're happy with the standard proficiencies, stick with them, just wanted to make sure you knew you had that option.
Now: I know you said no dipping, but you also said that you possibly want the exotic/martial weapon proficiency to use the orc double axe AND/or kukri profiency AND/or medium armor proficiency... Now, for a rogue, if you want all of those, that's going to take 3 feats. You're going to be 3rd or 4th level by the time you get all of those, and at a loss of a lot of other combat feats you could really use, especially if you want a TWF build.
Or, you could spend one level on fighter. Just one. That gives you proficiency in all the weapons you want to be proficient in, proficiency in all the armor you want to be proficient in--and shields if you decide a buckler might be worth your time--and gives you an improved Fortitude save, +1 to BAB, and a bonus combat feat to boot. Which ultimately FREES up a lot of feat slots you can spend on making your preferred weapon style shine, plus boosting other abilities you want your rogue to have. The only losses you face are, yes, delaying your sneak attack advancement by one level (but only one, and you get four effective feats for the price of that one level delay), and the rogue capstone at level 20, if you think it's at all possible to get that high level in the campaign you're playing in. If you're a firm "no dipping" player, I'll say nothing else about it, but this is really something to think about.
Now, if you want to be THF versus TWF, I suggest picking one and sticking with it. TWF takes a lot of dedicated feats. If you really want to do TWF, I'd also suggest swapping your Str and Dex so you can qualify for higher feats up the TWF chain faster.
An unrelated other thing to consider: Half-orcs are good at Intimidating people. Rogues have a lot of skill points so they definitely can afford boosting Intimidate every level. The Dazzling Display feat tree leads to Shatter Defenses, which renders enemies who are shaken, frightened or panicked to be flat-footed to you--which means you can sneak attack them all to your heart's content.
AND combine that with the Thug rogue archetype in the APG, which increases the duration of demoralize attempts... that means you could have a rogue who demoralizes and then beats the stuffing out of potential every foe within 30 feet. THAT... could be fun.
Now, this requires 3 feats to build but should well be workable into a standing build (maybe 4 feats to get Intimidating Prowess so you can use your nice Strength to back up Intimidate instead of Cha). Something else to think about.
Other notes: Resiliency + Orc Ferocity = Awesome.
Good luck and have fun! (and let's see who's ninjaed me while I was typing... ETA only 3 people, not bad)
I asked because if you want a fighting sneaky guy then a ranger can do it.
Ninja's might work also.
I picture the rogue disabling devices, beimg perceptive, and sneak/vital/power attacking simultaneously with a two handed weapon. I want the biggest sneak attack I can get. I would eventually like to be able to imp feint + sneak/vit strike/pow attack against adjacent enemies.
Basically, a full rogue with a nasty single attack. A big falchion seems cool, in that I could have a big improved crit range. Maybe a greatsword for the look/vibe.
If you did want to go the orc double axe route, a single level of fighter gets you medium and heavy armor proficiency, martial weapon proficiency, and a feat... pretty compelling, and doesn't really diminish your sneak attack/skills in the long run.
Also, with 25 points, you might consider something like
Str: 20 (18+2)
Dex: 15 (boosting this at level 4 and 8 will get you to imp. TWF... do you really need greater TWF?)
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 10
Cha: 8
Say you're going with TWF route. At level 2, you could be a fighter 1/rogue 1
Feats: TWF and double slice.
Your TWF attacks are +4/+4 dealing 1d8+5/1d8+5 (+1d6 sneak attack) and you can wear medium and heavy armor. Use intimidate as your main social skill (half-orc bonus makes up for low charisma). Low int, but seven skills isn't so shabby: acrobatics, disable device, intimidate, perception, stealth, +2 more.
If you end up going with the 2-handed weapon power attack route, and want combat maneuvers, you might consider imp. overrun instead of combat expertise/imp. trip to save a feat, and allow you to not need 13 int.
one thought - entirely dependent upon with the rest of the party is up to, and how you feel about hanging yourself 'out there' from time to time, is to look at the Scout alternate. Rolling with a Great Axe into something (with a charge or just a move action, depending on level) and adding your Sneak Attack dice to the equation, is a truck. Then Dodge / Mobility / Spring Attack ... BOOM!
Could also infuse the plan with a level of barbarian (I know you wanted to keep all rogue, but the Scout loves the extra 10' movement).
I did not know that I could not take combat feat only once, since I assumed each combst feat taken would itself be the rogue trick. Combat trick (blind fighting) being different than combat trick (weapon focus). Or whathaveyou.
I had considered a level of fighter but ... Blah. Maybe.
I saw the chain fighter thing but wasnt sure the visual fits my concept. What book had the great flail in it?
Sorry for typos. Hard to see or edit on my phone.
Also, I am adamantly against having an int less than 13, just for RP reasons, and because I want improved feint. I dont actually care about TWF anyway, even though it is better.
We also are not using dump stats, and I dont want sub standard wis or cha anyway, conceptually. If anything, I am irritated that I dont have 12 cha. ;)
Thanks all!
I will look at the scout but I am not interested in giving up trapfinding or evasion or uncanny dodge stuff, and as I recall all the rogue alternates nix the stuff that makes me want to be a rogue in the first place. ;)
Btw, the group will be halfling bard (sigh), gunslinger (sigh), inquisitor (stealing my desire blah), and dwarven drunken barb (sigh). And then me. It is a multi GM shared game, so usually when I play, the dwarf barb wont be there, and vice versa.
Also, I am adamantly against having an int less than 13, just for RP reasons, and because I want improved feint. I dont actually care about TWF anyway, even though it is better.
We also are not using dump stats, and I dont want sub standard wis or cha anyway, conceptually. If anything, I am irritated that I dont have 12 cha. ;)
Thanks all!
I always just think of low stats as role-play opportunities instead of dump stats. Low wisdom maybe means you're reckless, and perhaps a little braver than is wise. Low charisma means you speak your mind a little too freely. But if your group is against that sort of thing, or you don't find it fun, by all means, take a more even stat spread.
With the 2-handed weapon a level of fighter for the armor proficiency and the extra feat is still probably totally worth it. Don't think of it as a dip, think of it as a way to represent your more martially focussed rogue!
Well, I actually want him to have a wise nature and to be a social charismatic guy. So even with no dump stats, I would want nothing lowet than 10 on those.
I may do the fighter level. Tho I could just stick to light armor (mithril chain shirt) and the falchion. But I will consider it tonight when I can more easily look through my books.
Thanks.
Ok, I think one level of fighter is too useful to give up, so I guess I will do that. Looks good.
Btw, Haldrick, what weapon does your Half-Orc rogue use?
Thanks!
I did not know that I could not take combat feat only once, since I assumed each combst feat taken would itself be the rogue trick. Combat trick (blind fighting) being different than combat trick (weapon focus). Or whathaveyou.
Nope, 'cause the trick is just "Combat Trick"; it doesn't matter what feat you take with it.
Note for "Weapon Focus," however, there is a separate trick for that called Weapon Training. So you could take Combat Trick (Blind Fighting) and then take Weapon Training to get Weapon Focus. There's also a separate trick for Weapon Finesse and Improved Steal, IIRC.
I saw the chain fighter thing but wasnt sure the visual fits my concept. What book had the great flail in it?
The ability is in the APG, in the races chapter.
Chain Fighter: Some half-orcs have escaped from slavery and reforged the chains of their imprisonment into deadly weapons. Half-orcs with this racial trait are proficient with flails and heavy flails, and treat dire flails and spiked chains as martial weapons. This trait replaces the weapon familiarity racial trait.
All of the weapons themselves are in the core rulebook. And I'd forgotten it also allows you to treat dire flails as a martial weapon as well (which is another choice for TWF if you went that route).
Sounds like you're set on the falchion though (which is an awesome weapon!).
2 Levels of Trapper Ranger gives you Disable Device and Trapfinding, which opens up several rogue archetypes for you.
Other than the crit threat range, and the style/flavor fitting my half orc, what makes the falchion good? I mean I love the threat range, for sure. ;)
In a way, two handed sword would be cool cause you KNOW there is gonna be some cool scary evil or holy two handed sword loot he can UMD on and fake out the class or alignmemt. Finding an unholy or holy +5 falchion seems less likely. And rolling all d6 damage could be fun.
Good times. ;)
That would probably take up room in the build that I dont have. ;)
Alternative Racial Trait:
Toothy: Some Half-orcs’ vestigial tusks are massive and sharp, granting a bite attack. This is a primary natural attack that deals 1d4 points of piercing damage. This racial trait replaces the orc ferocity racial trait.
I was about to tell you spiked chains were really cool but appearently PF nerfed them pretty stiffly. In 3.5 they had 15 foot reach. Combat reflexes and spiked chains were epic. You threatened almost everything.
For damage, I would go kukri-wielding knife-master scout. That removes Trapfinding and Trap Sense though, as well as your uncanny dodging. however it would give you charge to xd8 sneak attack. Then I would spend my rogue talents between sneak attacks and those take 10 for skill check things.
I really dont want to do the two-weapon Kulri thing, just because I have played in games for the last 3 years where that has been done. I kinda want to do something different, even if it is sub optimal.
As for Toothy, I dont like the fluff of having big sharp teeth or looking bestial. Anyway, I was going go to with the Tattoo racial trait that replaces ferocity, for the +1 to all saves.
for Combat trick, you can technically take it twice, because it has two versions. The Ninja trick, and the Rogue talent.
I'm pretty sure the text disallows that.
Really? Just went through the obvious sources (Ninja, Rogue, and Rogue talents) and I can't see anything that disallows it.
The ninja cannot select a rogue talent that has the same name as a ninja trick.
ok. that's not in d20pfsrd.
EDIT: Found it. However it isn't written in the Rogue Talent. Is this errata'd?
Here is what I am thinking for my Half-Orc Rogue. I think I will go for Adopted and take the Elven Trait for +2 initiative. THEN I am unsure, I might take the Combat trait for +2 initiative to stack, OR I might go with the armor training one for the -1 to armor checks, so that eventually I can have mithril breastplate with no penalty (-4 bumped to -1 from mithril, and then the trait to even it out). And early, i could do the same with a masterwork chain shirt starting out.
Stats would be Str 17, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 10. I would swap Ferocity for Sacred Tattoo (+1 to all saves) for the orc racial trait.
BUT what do you think? Maybe the +4 to init is too sweet to pass up? By level 3, I could have +11 initiative.
At level 1, I will take Combat Expertise and from 1 level of Fighter I will take Improved Feint.
At level 3 I will get Improved Initiative from my Rogue Combat Trick, and Power Attack for my character feat.
At level 5 I will get Weapon Focus for my Rogue Weapon Training, and Dazzling Display for my character feat.
At level 7 I will get Furious Focus for my character feat, and I am UNDECIDED about my rogue talent. I am thinking about Bleeding Attack. Though I could take Trap Spotter to help the group more. But I kinda want Bleeding Attack.
At level 9 I would get Shatter Defenses for my character feat, and Powerful Sneak for my rogue talent.
At level 11 I would get Improved Critical for my character feat, and Deadly Sneak for my advanced rogue talent.
At level 13 I would get Vital Strike for my character feat, and improved evasion for my advanced rogue talent.
At level 15 I would get Improved Vital Strike for my character feat, and use my advanced rogue talent that lets me get any feat I qualify for to pick up Dreadful Carnage.
At level 17 I would get Dodge for my character feat and skill mastery for my advanced rogue talent.
At level 19 I would get Iron Hide for my character feat and slippery mind for my advanced rogue talent.
Also, other than at level 1, I would be taking the 1 HP per level for favored class Rogue. Which makes me wish I could fit Toughness in.
Feats I wish I could have taken: Toughness, Quick Draw, Intimidating Prowess. Rogue Talents I wish I could have taken (sorta): Trap Spotter.
I still have not picked for sure which weapon I will use, though it makes sense for it to be one with a good threat range since I am taking Improved Critical. For style, the Falchion seems great as it matches my race. Greatsword has less crit range, but I do like how I'd be rolling all the extra d6s with vital strike etc. I like the homogeneous carnage, instead of mixing in the d4s. But then again, I like 18-20 range doubled. :)
Does this build look adequate?
Thanks!
Those both have trait bonuses, so they do not stack.
If you want to go for the intimidate line, I'd suggest the following feats
Weapon Focus>Dazzling Display>Shatter Defenses and Gory Finish (A free dazzling display after each kill is priceless)
Intimidating Prowess
Power Attack>Cornugon Smash (Free intimidate with every Power Attack)
Meaning as long as the enemy can become flatfooted, you can keep sneak-attacking it until it dies, from which all of its allies within a 30 foot radius get flatfooted as well, allowing you to continue the chain.
Add in Furious Focus and Vital Strike, then BAM. Cleave would also be cool.
OK so since they dont stack, I might as well just take the armor one that I wanted, plus adopted? Or do you mean that the trait wont stack with the feat?
Squawk, I just dont have that many feats. Maybe if I dropped dodge and iron skin later, but we may never play that high. :) I could maybe drop Improved Init and Improved Crit and Combat Exp and Imp Feint in order to get Gory Defenses, Intim Prowess, Cornugon Smash (where is that from?) and Cleave. But .... ugh. I dont think I have room in the slightest.
Also, I just realized that I am not sure what exactly Dazzling Display does for me. It is a full round action that lets me "demoralize" foes. But what does that do? I thought it made them lose their dex bonus due to comments I saw somewhere. But now I am not sure.
Anyway, I am open to whatever will let me reliably and continuously get massive two-handed sword or falchion (which is best for this?) damage in single hits and/or with sneak attacks, preferably by keeping improved feint, but I am open to suggestion. So long as I can keep 19 levels of Rogue.
Shatter Defenses, the feat *after* Dazzling display makes them lose their dex bonus.
Demoralizing means shaking them. That's a -2 in saving rolls, damage rolls, ability checks, and skill checks. Also flatfooted if you get shatter defenses. All this as long as your enemy is not immune to fear.
Yeah. Feats. The death of us all. I was able to get all of these feats on an Archaeologist Bard, but only because he was human, and I used the feat-giving rogue talents.
Str16/Dex13/Con12/Int14/Wis10/Cha14
Traits: Maestro of the Society, Resilient
Weapons: Longsword
Skills: Acrobatics, Disable Device, Intimidate, Perception, Knowledge (All), Spellcraft, Stealth, Use Magic Device
Class Ability and Feat Development
CL1- Weapon Focus: Longsword, Lingering Performance, Archaeologist's Luck +1, Bardic Knowledge,
CL2- Clever Explorer, Uncanny Dodge
CL3- Power Attack, Trap Sense +1
CL4- +1 to Dex, Strong Impression (Intimidating Prowess)
CL5- Cornugon Smash, Evasion, Lore Master 1/day, Archeologist's Luck +2
CL6- Trap Sense +2
CL7- Dazzling Display
CL8- +1 to Str, Combat Trick: Shatter Defenses
CL9- Gory Finish, Trap Sense +3
CL10- Jack of all Trades
CL11- Discordant Voice, Lore Master 2/day, Archaeologist's Luck +3
CL12- +1 to Str, Opportunist
I picture the rogue disabling devices, beimg perceptive, and sneak/vital/power attacking simultaneously with a two handed weapon. I want the biggest sneak attack I can get. I would eventually like to be able to imp feint + sneak/vit strike/pow attack against adjacent enemies.
As wraithstrike pointed out, a ranger can do this as well.
And do it far better.
Rangers get sneak attack?
Anyway, I guess I should try to get Shatter Defenses ASAP then. EDIT: which I just realized I did. Yay!
Oh wait ... Shattered Defenses says that any Shaken (which is what the dazzling display and the Dreadful Carnage do, right?) foes attacked by me become flat footed to my attacks until the end of my next turn. Does that mean the first hit does not get the benefit?
In other words, if I spend a full round doing dazzling display, and then on the second round I move up and hit a guy, he isnt flat footed to me for that hit is he? Its the SUBSEQUENT round of attacks?
Or is even the first hit when the foe is shaken such that he is flat footed?
Yeah. That's what Cornugon Strike was for. You could full attack with power attack, granting an intimidate check with every strike. Once you get the enemy shaken, Sneak attack comes in.
Wow. Ok I guess that one I really need to work in somehow then.
What source book is it coming from? I see lots of google hits discussing it but I am not seeing which Paizo book it is from.
Thanks!
Cornugon (as well as many other amazing combat feats) is from the Cheliax book.
Gory Finish is from UC
Because of the feat intensity, a lot of people recommend actually a second party member to be an intimidator. Someone like the party face. My Archie for example is rogue support.
Ah. I prob wont be able to use the Cornugon thing. Bleh.
Gory Finish could work.
Oh well. I have some time to decide.
Thanks!
oh wait. I noticed you're undecided for your level 7 rogue talent. Get Strong Impression. That's a free Intimidating Prowess feat.