So if I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that those that don't agree with your opinion are wrong.
No, I'm not.
My point was, just because people say the fighter is fine and don't need a fix, doesn't mean they are right. (and the opposite is also true). Just because there are two (or more) opinions on an issue doesn't mean all opinions per se are right.Does anyone still play a fighter?: Obviously yes?
Are there people who enjoy the class? Apparently, yes.
Are fighters one of the best damage dealers in the game: Yes
Is the fighter broken and a totally unplayable class? No
Do I still think the fighter need a fix? Yes.
We don't all score things the same, true.
Implying thing fighters doesn't need as fix as long as there are people saying it doesn't is just silly.
In my experience the best way to deal with a demon is to kill it as fast as posible focusing all the damage you can inflict in the BBEG, something that a figther do well (of course he will need help but everyone need help).
Its not something that the fighter does well though, because his damage is pretty limited in the first round because he has to move and attack.
Also you don't damage, at all, at that level, you toss SOD's or SOS's and finish it in the first round, before the fighter either gets there or between when the fighter gets one attack and the fighter getting 5.
In my experience the best way to deal with a demon is to kill it as fast as posible focusing all the damage you can inflict in the BBEG, something that a figther do well (of course he will need help but everyone need help).Its not something that the fighter does well though, because his damage is pretty limited in the first round because he has to move and attack.
Also you don't damage, at all, at that level, you toss SOD's or SOS's and finish it in the first round, before the fighter either gets there or between when the fighter gets one attack and the fighter getting 5.
Fortunately, the Fighters in my games tend to have some options, and many of them have learned that certain cool doohickies like life-drinkers are pretty shway. Enemies tend to have some nice saves, so having the party wizard TK the Fighter towards an enemy to land the Fighter at ground-zero without AoOs, just in time for the Fighter to get some gnarly attacks in with his life-drinker that deals 2 negative level per hit and 6 on a critical is pretty BAMF. With so many negative levels, that's when the casters drop the SoD bomb (the saving penalties are literally killer). :D
EDIT: But yes, not to mislead, you are entirely right. If "Fighters can't have nice things", then they are pretty much screwed.
Lolwut?
Means what?
Fighters have Extroadinary abilities.
Yes I know, my bad. I wasn't referring to weapon training, Armor Training, but to pounce or come and get me or anything that lets them to anything that normally can't be done.
Also, they don't just have feats; they have weapon training, Armor Training and some other cool things that other classes can't have, like Specialization and Penetrating strike.
They don't get anything that normally can't be done. They only improve what they can already do and the other full BAB class either don't need that and/or get better and/or more cool stuff.
Paladins have superb defense built into their class features, and I like that, but their offense is pretty "meh," and the only builds you can really make work for them (in a setting that doesn't accommodate mounted combat very well) are 2H melee or Archery (obviously, switch hitting, too).
their offense is pretty "meh? That been proved wrong about 777 times.
"only 2H or Archery"? Even though I don't agree, "2H or Archery" is good enough. S&B are valid options and I've seen TWF builds.
Barbarians are more customizable, faster, and very cool in a number of ways, but have to worry about consumable resources and fatigue, and fatigue Suuuuuucckks. (unless your GM doesn't pay attention to that stuff, in which case, no wonder the fighter gets shafted).
worry about consumable resources? Do you mean worry about recourse management, rage rounds per day? Past level 7 or 8 that is not a problem. I've played bards and they use they bardic performance a lot more often than the barb rages. Past level 7 recourse management usually isn't a problem, past level 8 it never is.
worry about fatigue? I'm not sure what you mean? Does your characters get fatigued a lot? And you can't deal with it? or do you imply a DM:
should spam any barb with waves of fatigue or make sure he is fatigue as often as possible?
make sure rogues fights monsters immune to sneak attack as often as possible?
Make sure the Paladin never or seldom fight evil foes
Make sure the ranger fights his favored enemy as seldom as possible?
In other words: The DM should be a Jerk?
I know you can dip Oracle to deal with that, but we're talking Barbarians, not Barbarian/Oracles.
Or pick Roused Anger or play with a DM who isn't a jerk.
As for we're talking Barbarians, not Barbarian/Oracles? If a fighter could dip into one level oracle and then could pounce at will, I think a lot of fighters would.I never see them come up in discussions about this sort of thing, though, and to be honest, I'm not sure why not.
I'm not sure what you mean.
Also, nobody thinks the earth is flat; In fact, practically nobody EVER thought that.
fabricate my view instead of trying to understand it?
And fighters are great. I can't think of anyone else who can trip a 10 foot circle of enemies and then take AoOs against them every round, whilst bullrushing foes who get too close.
I actually can, but let's not argue. Just read meatrace's reply again.
Edit: And you mention that high level guides and Barbarians can move and full attack. Well a mobile fighter can do that starting at like, 11th, and, more importantly, an infinite number of times per day.
No, he can't full attack and move. Barbs can, Guide Can, Dervish Dancer can.
As for an infinite number of times per day? I've never seen the need to do it an infinite number of times per day. Once or twice per encounter is the max.BTW, this is not only a matter or move + attack more than once although that does hurt. The fighter's toolbox is boring and limited.
He can also whirlwind attack as a standard action, and I don't know of any other way to do that. Research moar.
read meatrace's reply again.
You should check out Dervish Dancer.
Well first off, you're getting spells in the least efficient way possible. The core rulebook notes that you can pay other wizards to copy spells from their spellbooks, and the prices are very fair for just letting you have the opportunity to learn a new spell from them.You made a lot of assumptions. "you can" do not means "you always can".
Right. Rare or unique spells... like high level magics? I have no problem getting my hands on spells of up to... 4th or 5th level, but there are a limited number of high level mages to deal with, many of whom don't care to share their spellbooks.
Sometimes the only option is a scroll you find or buy. I don't feel like I'm getting hozed by the DM any more than the fighter who rolls magic items for a town and doesn't get what he wants.
Well first off, you're getting spells in the least efficient way possible. The core rulebook notes that you can pay other wizards to copy spells from their spellbooks, and the prices are very fair for just letting you have the opportunity to learn a new spell from them.You made a lot of assumptions. "you can" do not means "you always can".Right. Rare or unique spells... like high level magics? I have no problem getting my hands on spells of up to... 4th or 5th level, but there are a limited number of high level mages to deal with, many of whom don't care to share their spellbooks.
Sometimes the only option is a scroll you find or buy. I don't feel like I'm getting hozed by the DM any more than the fighter who rolls magic items for a town and doesn't get what he wants.
It's worth noting that you can buy 9th level scrolls fairly easy in your standard game (core rulebook lists magic items up to 16,000 gp are available more often than not in big communities), which means there's probably some dude who knows the spell.
It's always worth trying though. Scrolls are a good way to grab spells off of corpses and prisoners. Just paying another wizard to learn his spell is easier on both the learner and the owner of the book, and it seems rather silly to think you could buy a scroll but not find someone willing to let you copy the spell for a fee. I could see a spell that is in some way rare or unique (such as a researched spell) being a closely guarded thing.
EDIT: I thought I should probably throw in that I don't think fighters need to spend a whole lot of money on their weapons and armor and such. My next post will elaborate...
I thought I should probably throw in that I don't think fighters need to spend a whole lot of money on their weapons and armor and such. My next post will elaborate...
The Core Rulebook notes that any magic item that is 16,000 gp or less can be found relatively easily in a metropolis (75% chance, check back now and then) due to the community GP limits. Anything beyond that is randomly generated. Note: This isn't including the optional rules from the GMG that expands on settlement GP limits, which I will not be including for the purposes of this post.
Now, what can we purchase that is within 16,000 gp?
But we will have a lot of treasure. The first trick is to begin golf-bagging. Instead of having one weapon maxed out as often as possible, you should carry weapons for different occasions. A higher level Fighter should most certainly sport a primary melee weapon, primary ranged weapon, several secondary melee weapons, possibly a secondary ranged weapon, including exotic materials such as cold iron, silver/mithral, adamantine, etc. That way they are better prepared. For less than the cost of a +3 weapon, you can get 2 +2 weapons with some money left over. Take advantage of this.
With excess coin, I recommend following the item creation rules and getting some benefits such as death ward, freedom of movement, and similar things on your equipment. These things are generally more important to survival than the next +1, and if usable only a few times per day (or arguably better, for X rounds split up during the day), can be called on when needed. This sort of preparation saves your bacon when your GM notices that 12 CR 3 shadows is an average encounter for 10th level characters (as in 12d6 worth of strength damaging touch attacks).
Likewise, consider picking up some wondrous items here and there. Feather tokens, elixers, etc. Dust of disappearance, elemental gems, and so forth. A lot of them are relatively expensive at these levels, and can be quickly gathered up, and can come in handy.
You're a Fighter. Don't worry too much about that extra +1. Diversify yourself. Try to think about things that could happen to you, and then try to have something for that rainy day when the skies open up and begin raining battery acid on you. It's good to have invested in that umbrella when you did.
In pathfinder you don't need the golfbag full of obscure alchemical metals. Just get a +5 whatever and it acts like the rest.
I won't do it in pathfinder core. Not since passing combat manoeuvres was made harder, CMD, and more feats required to do what a fighter used to be able to do (looking at you trip and no attack of opportunity).
2nd ed sure, 3-3.5 yeah absolutely. I make a crafty fighter. Pathfinder without the CMD rules, I'm in. Bring that in and I try something else. Fighters for me are not all about the damage, but pathfinder seems to want to push towards that and away from use of techniques, or make them really difficult or near impossible against bosses (seen some of those CMDs?). That just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
I really like the beta fighter in a 3.5 ruleset, goes off. Crowd goes wild.
Plain old vanilla fighters may not be the most exciting class to play, but in many ways they excell. At low levels they can be effective archers, two weapon fighters, two handed damage dealers (with only the barbarian edging them out), and I'm pretty sure I can draw up an archer build that beats out any other martial archer on a regular basis.
With the right build they'll have the best AC, a to hit bonus that only a barbarian beats (without situational modifiers), a damage bonus that rivals other classes (even with situational modifiers), and a score of combat manuevers that can control any combat they're in.
Why get fancy when you don't have to?
+1
It's worth noting that you can buy 9th level scrolls fairly easy in your standard game (core rulebook lists magic items up to 16,000 gp are available more often than not in big communities), which means there's probably some dude who knows the spell.It's always worth trying though. Scrolls are a good way to grab spells off of corpses and prisoners. Just paying another wizard to learn his spell is easier on both the learner and the owner of the book, and it seems rather silly to think you could buy a scroll but not find someone willing to let you copy the spell for a fee. I could see a spell that is in some way rare or unique (such as a researched spell) being a closely guarded thing
But now you are making assumptions about the game, like if there are scrolls available that it means there is a wizard, and once more that the powerful wizard is willing to let someone he's not familiar with copy spells from him.
And before someone says that you only have 30% to crit do not forget that things like SR, high saves, inmunities and resistances can negate the SOD ans SOS.
They can. But they don't have a 70% chance of doing so.
A caster moving and attacking hurts just as much as one standing still and attacking, because their attack is a standard action either way.
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But now you are making assumptions about the game, like if there are scrolls available that it means there is a wizard, and once more that the powerful wizard is willing to let someone he's not familiar with copy spells from him.
It's worth noting that you can buy 9th level scrolls fairly easy in your standard game (core rulebook lists magic items up to 16,000 gp are available more often than not in big communities), which means there's probably some dude who knows the spell.It's always worth trying though. Scrolls are a good way to grab spells off of corpses and prisoners. Just paying another wizard to learn his spell is easier on both the learner and the owner of the book, and it seems rather silly to think you could buy a scroll but not find someone willing to let you copy the spell for a fee. I could see a spell that is in some way rare or unique (such as a researched spell) being a closely guarded thing
I was just looking at it from a logical perspective. If X exists then Y exists so Z must be true, etc. The game already assumes that you can learn spells this way, and gives the prices for them, just like the game assumes you can pay for spellcasting services and such. It only notes that unique or rare spells may cost significantly more. It doesn't define what a unique or rare spell is, so I assume this is up to the GM to define before the game occurs. But higher level spells are already significantly more expensive than lower level spells, so I'd expect a good reason for a spell to not follow the normal rules.
In pathfinder you don't need the golfbag full of obscure alchemical metals. Just get a +5 whatever and it acts like the rest.
Sort of. You're still better off golf bagging. See you need at least a +3 weapon to ignore silver or cold iron requirements, a +4 weapon to overcome DR (but you don't get the benefit vs hardness), and a +5 to overcome alignment reductions. But bear with me for a moment...
The cost of weapons by enhancement are...
It gets higher if you're also including specials, but this is enough for demonstrative purposes. Now let's look at the cost of special materials.
Now in this case, even a +2 mithral weapon weighing in at 12lbs (the most expensive material given the circumstances) still costs less than a +3 weapon that isn't made out of special materials. It costs less by several thousand gold pieces. Any of the other materials and it's not really even a contest.
For less than the price of a single +3 weapon, I could have a pair of +2 weapons made of cold iron and silver. Excess gold can be put towards building defenses so I'm not one-shot like a glass-cannon when initiative is rolled and I get a bum-roll.
There is also the fact that not all forms of damage reduction are overcome by just getting a higher +X weapon. For example, you still have to deal with damage type reductions, such as skeletons, zombies, liches, rakshasa, gibbering mouthers, and stuff like jellies splittng. And it is always a good plan to have backup weapons. Much like a good wizard keeps a few spare spellbooks, a good Fighter (or other martial class) will have a golf-bag of goodies.
Finally, as I pointed out, you can more easily rely on acquiring +2 weapons than you can higher levels, because you have a solid chance at finding what you're looking for in any metropolis.
So a well-armed Fighter might have...
Total gear cost = 35,950 gp, about the cost of a +3 melee and +3 longbow. What is the Fighter losing out on? 5% chance to hit and +1 damage. What is he getting in return? He can overcome damage reductions that are both cold iron or silver more or less on demand, depending on his weapon selection he should be able to bypass DR for slashing, piercing, and bludgeoning. He can prevent incorporeal creatures like wraiths and pesky casters from escaping him (if they're in a ghost touch net, they can't pass through barriers the net doesn't to escape), and he has a bane weapon that can tear most undead (including liches) a new one.
Best of all, if he has a spellcaster in the party, a single greater magic weapon spell and suddenly his weapon of the day is a +3 to +5 magic weapon, and he doesn't really care that the magic weapon spell doesn't bypass certain DRs 'cause he's still covered! :D
The fact that one of his weapons getting lost or destroyed isn't a huge setback is icing on the cake. If you're carrying like 4 +2 weapons, as opposed to a single +3 weapon, it's far less attractive to destroy your primary weapon because it will offer little to no real setback in the current battle. While wielding a single powerful weapon is just asking for it to be removed from you.
Example: You're battling a lich or other mean spellcaster. You've invested all your money into a really sweet +5 weapon, figuring that it overcomes most damage reductions. Seeing your folly, the spellcaster hits your weapon with a targeted dispel magic and shuts it down, before landing a shatter spell on your weak-willed behind. Why would he do this dastardly deed? 'Cause you've got one magic item giving off a powerful aura and nothing else to fall back on. He's crushing your combat effectiveness doing this. You get to cry because he just flushed 50,000 gp worth of your coin down the pooper, and you have no weapon.
The smart Fighter is loaded with slightly lower-enhancement weapons (though possibly boosted with GMW, milage may vary), but has backups. The lich, seeing that you have plenty of backup weapons, would probably be going through more trouble than it was worth to try and break, remove, or deny you one of those weapons, since you would just draw another as part of a move action (or even a free action if you have a feat) and continue your assault relatively unhindered, and if he did destroy one of your goodies, it sets you back significantly less.
Now the funny thing is, not only are you less vulnerable to destroying your goodies, but you are also less appealing for such a tactic as well. So your goodies are actually more likely to remain intact, since it is so unappealing to even try to do it against you.
For other scenarios, replace Lich with "Disarming over a pit of molten lava", "War Troll sunders your shinies", or "Had to temporarily drop my weapon to switch to ranged, and some mook grabbed it before fleeing", etc.
@ Ashiel
I don't agree with Bob_Loblaw on a lot of the thing he says, but there is no evidence he is out to get you. He, and other, just have another view on things. I can see some of his points (and some of yours) and he seems to be a nice person.
You should cool down. You come off as really aggressive.
Agree his remark on your age was Inappropriate.
I think you both have a point, so cool down before you both get hurt.
Removed a post. Please refer to the FAQ on Forum Rules. That was particularly unsavory.
And before someone says that you only have 30% to crit do not forget that things like SR, high saves, inmunities and resistances can negate the SOD ans SOS.They can. But they don't have a 70% chance of doing so.
Well that is situational, lets take for example a Balor.
it have SR 31 so a 20 level wizard with spell penetration need a 9 to beat the SR so a 55% chance of succed.
And at that level you're going to have greater spell penetration as well, dropping it to a 7 , making it a 65% chance to succeed. 75% chance if you're an elf.
Now let supose you use a 9th level spell that target will. A reasonalbe Dc is for example 33 so you have 40% of succed
0.55 x 0.4= 22%.
And at this level you're going to have a persistant metamagic rod, making the chance 64% , so 41.6% chance, plus whatever you can do on your quicken spell.
So your 9th level SOS would fail more than the figther threefold debuffing strike.
Sure, if the balor is nice enough to be 5 feet apart with no active defenses up. Also most of the xing criticals have a fort save of 30, which the demon makes on a 2.
Everyone have to move and attack, but when you atack and have a crit range of 15-20 and have power attack, furious focus, cornugon smash, intimidating prowess, staggering critical, sickening critical and critical mastery one blow can be enough to gain the advantage (stagered, sickened and intimidated with only one blow)
And before someone says that you only have 30% to crit do not forget that things like SR, high saves, inmunities and resistances can negate the SOD ans SOS.
They can. But they don't have a 70% chance of doing so.
A caster moving and attacking hurts just as much as one standing still and attacking, because their attack is a standard action either way.
Both of these statements are true. The problem is the Fighter must A) reach his foe, B) hit his foe (counting AC/miss%), C) score a threat (25% chance to do so), D) confirm that threat.
This is one of the reasons I like archery, because you can usually make most of these problems go away with ranged combat (but that introduces some other weaknesses, but that's another thing at the moment).
As for SR, high saves, immunities, and resistances, most good casters don't have much trouble with these. SR is basically just AC vs spells, and a lot of common SRs were nerfed in Pathfinder. Then many nice spells ignore this outright. There are high saves most creatures have some which are lower, and most SoD casters are speccin' their DCs and usually open with debuffs, or get their party to help debuff before nailing the coffin. Then there are no-save spells, which aren't very uncommon. Immunities and resistances are a real concern, but many of the worst ones (like the kind undead have) can be used to your advantage (I like undead minions + stinking cloud as a combo, for example).
But check this out, all that is highly situational. You might not have all of those things. But you might. That's kind of the point. You have options. You can plan and prepare. A nice spell-selection gives a good combination of options. Options are good. It's nice. Paizo has also been kinder and kinder to spellcasters, and now it's really easy to hit foes with no-spell resistance damaging effects which come with a Save or Suck that nothing is immune to. :P
I'm rambling at this point, but the moral of the story is options are nice.
@BigNorseWolf
You need to be an elf, and you have to have the persistant rod in hand, and greater spell penetration, and is 9th level spell so if you miss you waste a important resource , and 40% is far from autosusceed.
The numbers i ran were not for an elf.
As to the persistent rod, as soon as you can afford one you sleep with it under you pillow.
For example take away the cleave feat from the balor and replace it with quickened-SLA (greater dispel), he can leave you without your defensive buff, move towards you and grapple you with his whip, you use dimension door to escape and he use greter teleport, and then quickened( telekinesis) to grapple you and how many dimension door your wizard actually prepare in a normal day?
You don't have to Dimension door anywhere that he can see you.
Sicekning(-2 to ST) does not allow a saving trow
Quickened prayer would do as much.
if he make his save against the staggering critical anyways he is staggered for a round, how is that not usefull for the party?
He can still cast implosion for his standard action.
@ Ashiel
I don't agree with Bob_Loblaw on a lot of the thing he says, but there is no evidence he is out to get you.
I didn't say that he was out to get me. I did say (and show) that he has repeatedly been taking my posts out of context, misquoting me, etc; apparently just to be antagonistic. It gets kind of old. I wouldn't even care if he was actually arguing something real, or arguing against my actual position on the subject, but underhanded and just plain dirty tactics like that for the sole purposes of being antagonistic grind my gears.
He, and other, just have another view on things. I can see some of his points (and some of yours) and he seems to be a nice person.
I'm going to avoid invoking Godwin's law here and just say that I see some of his points as well, but that the stuff he is arguing (the overly specific) isn't really related to what I'm talking about (the overly general). He keeps going on and on about how I hate fighters and say they aren't playable games with good GMs, which I have noted was not what I said several times. If you want to argue with me, at least argue with me right.
You should cool down. You come off as really aggressive.
Agree his remark on your age was Inappropriate.
I openly admit that the more someone irritates me by constantly misrepresenting me, misquoting me, and being a dishonest debater, that my irritation manifests itself and become short. In an attempt to avoid saying anything overly harsh (the thought crosses my mind more times than I'd like) I quickly point out what I have an issue with (like is dishonesty), substitute more colorful words with "dude", and move on. I would have seen this as defensive rather than aggressive. I admit the age thing tried my patience. :(
I think you both have a point, so cool down before you both get hurt.
Fair enough. *nods*
I like playing all of the classes, but when I saw the Tetsubo out of the Ultimate Combat... I had to give the fighter another whirl! Commmon'!... Common'!?.... I mean, COME-ON'!!! A TWO-HANDED WEAPON WITH A X4 CRIT MULIPLIER!!!? WITH A D10 DMG??!! (okay enough with the caps, I think ya'll are getting the point by now.)
I just started playing a Fighter character with this weapon and I am kind of getty about when the character has enough wealth and levels to also smack someone up with a bursting effect for 7d10 damage dice. Funnier even more, to me, is... I don't even know if I have seven ten siders!? Needless to say though, I can't wait to dig into my bucket container of dice and find out when I do land that sweet, sweet critical. *Drools and waits patiently*
The core rulebook notes that you can pay other wizards to copy spells from their spellbooks, and the prices are very fair for just letting you have the opportunity to learn a new spell from them.
Perhaps I'm a curmudgeon, or perhaps my approach is merely a holdover from earlier editions, but I make wizards work for every spell they learn. They either obtain spells as loot through play, via their own research, or by undertaking quests pursuant to such purpose.
Merely approaching another wizard and asking to copy his work would, in my game, elicit a response not entirely dissimilar to what might happen if a research scientist from one pharmaceutical company asked a rival from a competing company if he could copy his formula. . .
The core rulebook notes that you can pay other wizards to copy spells from their spellbooks, and the prices are very fair for just letting you have the opportunity to learn a new spell from them.Perhaps I'm a curmudgeon, or perhaps my approach is merely a holdover from earlier editions, but I make wizards work for every spell they learn. They either obtain spells as loot through play, via their own research, or by undertaking quests pursuant to such purpose.
Merely approaching another wizard and asking to copy his work would, in my game, elicit a response not entirely dissimilar to what might happen if a research scientist from one pharmaceutical company asked a rival from a competing company if he could copy his formula. . .
Considering wizards have uses for spells, I'm pretty sure this is one of the biggest reasons for wizards to work together. At the very least, I'd have a hard time not imagining a spell-trade being worthy.
Wizard 1: "Hey, do you know how to unlock doors with magic?"
Wizard 2: "Yeah, I do. Do you know how to turn invisible?"
Wizard 1: "Hells yeah man. Wanna swap notes?"
Wizard 2: "Heck yeah man. I got a buddy that you should hit up for some spells too, let me get you his address."
EDIT: On a side note, my friend and I were both playing wizards in the same group once. It was really nice because we basically got to share spells all the time. Every level we got 2 for free, so we'd pick different spells. We'd grab different spells whenever possible and just share notes. Worked out well for both of us.
I removed a post and a lot of replies to it (and replies to them and so forth.)
Don't make arguments personal, and rape is not funny.
The core rulebook notes that you can pay other wizards to copy spells from their spellbooks, and the prices are very fair for just letting you have the opportunity to learn a new spell from them.Perhaps I'm a curmudgeon, or perhaps my approach is merely a holdover from earlier editions, but I make wizards work for every spell they learn. They either obtain spells as loot through play, via their own research, or by undertaking quests pursuant to such purpose.
Merely approaching another wizard and asking to copy his work would, in my game, elicit a response not entirely dissimilar to what might happen if a research scientist from one pharmaceutical company asked a rival from a competing company if he could copy his formula. . .
Well quite frankly you are being a smudge curmudgeonly and a bit of a holdover. The simple fact is a the approach outlined by Ashiel is the one provided in the core rules and assumptions about the game.
Now this isn't to say your approach can't work (it has before and obviously is for your group) -- just that it is... outdated.
Also this has little to do with the actual cost of a spell book which is also outlined in the magic section of the core rulebook.
HOW the spell gets into the book is honestly of little importance. Once its in the book it adds to the value as outlined in the magic section. If a scroll was used that scroll has no more meaning than the potion the fighter drank at level 1.
I removed a post and a lot of replies to it (and replies to them and so forth.)
Don't make arguments personal, and rape is not funny.
Someone said Rape was funny?
The core rulebook notes that you can pay other wizards to copy spells from their spellbooks, and the prices are very fair for just letting you have the opportunity to learn a new spell from them.Perhaps I'm a curmudgeon, or perhaps my approach is merely a holdover from earlier editions, but I make wizards work for every spell they learn. They either obtain spells as loot through play, via their own research, or by undertaking quests pursuant to such purpose.
Merely approaching another wizard and asking to copy his work would, in my game, elicit a response not entirely dissimilar to what might happen if a research scientist from one pharmaceutical company asked a rival from a competing company if he could copy his formula. . .
Well quite frankly you are being a smudge curmudgeonly and a bit of a holdover. The simple fact is a the approach outlined by Ashiel is the one provided in the core rules and assumptions about the game.
Now this isn't to say your approach can't work (it has before and obviously is for your group) -- just that it is... outdated.
Also this has little to do with the actual cost of a spell book which is also outlined in the magic section of the core rulebook.
HOW the spell gets into the book is honestly of little importance. Once its in the book it adds to the value as outlined in the magic section. If a scroll was used that scroll has no more meaning than the potion the fighter drank at level 1.
More or less this. Thanks Abraham, for your great explanation. ^-^
Someone said Rape was funny?I removed a post and a lot of replies to it (and replies to them and so forth.)
Don't make arguments personal, and rape is not funny.
I love you TOZ, but I am both confused and a little creeped out by your response... :P
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I love you TOZ, but I am both confused and a little creeped out by your response... :PSomeone said Rape was funny?I removed a post and a lot of replies to it (and replies to them and so forth.)
Don't make arguments personal, and rape is not funny.
Jus' point me at 'em, boss lady. I'll teach 'em a lesson about tha finer points o' humor...
Jus' point me at 'em, boss lady. I'll teach 'em a lesson about tha finer points o' humor...I love you TOZ, but I am both confused and a little creeped out by your response... :PSomeone said Rape was funny?I removed a post and a lot of replies to it (and replies to them and so forth.)
Don't make arguments personal, and rape is not funny.
*cackles evilly*
I can't help but to wonder if Ross meant my use of the term "mind-rape", as I don't see that post anymore (when I was looking to see what post supposedly called rape humorous); but that doesn't seem correct since "mind-rape" is the correct term for any subversion of the mind through outside sources such as enchantment magic, as the word rape when used as a verb with an object means "to seize, take, or carry off by force" or "to plunder (a place); despoil". It's one of the reasons I tend to view Enchantment magics like charm and dominate as being inherently more evil than virtually anything on the entire Necromancy tree of magic; because they are literally a rape of the mind.
However, if that was what Ross meant by rape not being humorous, I don't see how it would appear to have been humorous. Exactly at what point is, a succubus taking control of a Fighter's mind and free will and then making him a slave or a murderer of his friends, humorous or theoretically said in an attempt at humor?
In the words of Omduill the Seer, "It's dark, dark stuff Ysuran".
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I love my halfling weapon master around the double sling. he has a difficult time at low levels (feat cost to really make this work is well over a dozen) but he runs like the 13 arrows in 6 seconds build at higher levels :PIs that even RAW? how do you load a sling without a free hand?
ammo drop... remember Jamir? sigh... already forgotten... :(
;)
DR 15/good and silver is supernatural and also suppressed in an antimagic zone. Fighter proceeds to ownerag3. Once it's dead, dunk it in holy water to kill it.
There are actually very few kinds of DR that stick around in A-M zones, mostly the blunt/slashing type, and dr /-.
==Aelryinth
I'd like a rule citation on this one. I checked the core glossary and the bestiary rules, and it doesn't specify Ex or Su based on DR type, and a pit fiends DR is not called out as Supernatural, so by RAW it doesn't wink out in an Antimagic Field, and you still need a blessed silver weapon to hurt them. Welcome to Hell.
Also, as far as I can tell, Holy Water doesn't stop a pit fiend's regeneration. It deals an untyped 2d4 damage and is neither a holy weapon, under the effects of an align weapon spell, nor is it a spell.
From the PFSRD:
Damage Reduction
Some magic creatures have the supernatural ability to instantly heal damage from weapons or ignore blows altogether as though they were invulnerable.
===========
Key word, Supernatural. Magical. Suppressed in an A-M shell. The pit fiend is now vulnerable, and doesn't get his +5 AC boost from his little Aura and spells, either.
Holy water is blessed water, and blessed damage works on pit fiends and stops their regen. It does damage because it is blessed!
This way of killing them has been around for a long time. It's better now because the aligned attack stops the regen for a round, during which you can kill it, instead of being needed to do the killing (i.e. hit it with holy water, then do a hundred points damage to finish it off)
==Aelryinth
you don't have to nerf the spellcasters much, you just have to nerf the spells.
Remember, PF is an evolution of 3E, which was an evolution from 1 and 2E.
Casters received HUGE buff-ups from those additions, and Fighters received MAJOR nerfage.
If you want to equalize things, you have to hit both ends, and ignore the whining of the no longer uber casters.
It's noteworthy that wizard-lovers clamp up when the subject of 2e->3E buffing comes up. Casters didn't suffer in the earlier editions, but man, did they do well in 3E.
==Aelryinth
Wrong, hit point damage from spells has remained the same or gone down since 1st edition, as maximums have been instituted. Magic missiles did 1d4+level up to 10 missiles if I remember correctly without my 1e books with me.
Monster hit dice/hit points have gone WAY up. Dragons that had 120hp in 1E, now have 400+ hit points.
Save or die spells have been nerfed.
The damage that melee fighters can do has steadily increased, remember a fighter in 1e, with an 18/00 strength did +6 damage, only male human fighters could have an 18/00 strength if memory serves. Only fighters got 2 attacks per round. Today they can do 4 or more attacks have a 24 str power attacking, for a whopping +14 damage.
You're misremembering a couple things.
First, most save or dies are alive and well in 3.5. They've been changed to marginally effective DD spells in PF...except Stone to Flesh is still instant death.
You are also ignoring the fact that saves against spells were MORE successful with level in 1E. A 17th level fighter with a ring of prot +3 basically needed a 3 to save against ANYTHING. Those save or dies were next to useless at higher levels, because everything always saved. In 3.5, spells are HARDER to save against as you level...save or dies became much, much more effective.
I will agree that the effect of direct damage has gone down. Between damage caps and higher monster HP, direct damage is less effective. Also, there were NO damage caps in 1E. 30th level, 15 magic missiles or a 30d6 fireball...the latter statistically better then a meteor swarm.
Dragons maxed out at 96 hP for a huge, ancient gold dragon in 1e, not 120. Now, those dragons have 5x the hit points. And AC 40, vs 21.
Relative damage for a fighter went DOWN, the same as it did for mage's dmg spells. A fighter is NOT doing 4x the damage he was in 1E. A Fighter in 1E was doing size L 3-18 dmg, x3 for his red dragon slayer, +4 weapon, +12 Storm Giant str Girdle, +3 spec for a respectable 9-54 +19 dmg. ON average, with his 5/2 attacks, he would kill a huge ancient red in one round without effort.
Fighters maxed at 5/2 attacks. That's 2.5 attacks/rd at full To Hit. IF you start at base 100%, a 3.5 iterative series also works out to 250% dmg...and that's IF you get a full attack. The 1E fighter ALWAYS got his multiple attacks, it wasn't situational on the enemy standing still.
Enemy's TH abilities escalated immensely in 3.5, tearing down a fighter's AC ability. In 1E, AC negative anything meant stuff missed you half the time or more. -6 (26) was basically unhittable. Comes 3.5, now monsters get Str bonuses to hit, and those bonuses are MUCH bigger then 1E. Power Attack converts lots of Hit Dice to damage. Monster damage is 3-4x higher then 1E right out the gate, so all those extra hp from Con bonuses post 9th? You need them or you die.
In short, Fighters were a hugely dominant force in 1E. They did considerable damage to enemies, always and consistently, and certainly more then is proportionate in 3.5/PF. They could tank better without going to extremes of AC, and they had far more hit points in ratio.
Spellcasters, and wizards especially, lost in direct damage, but gained EVERYWHERE else, from BAB to hit Points to # of spells, to Save DC's against their spells to AC, to being able to cast in combat!
Fighters lost tons. Hit point superiority, AC superiority, TH superiority, Strength/Con superiority/exclusivity, Multiple Attack exclusivity, The best average saves, move and attack...fighters got nerfed immensely.
and that's just fact.
===Aelryinth
@Ashiel, at the risk of retribution, I just want to jog your memory as to what might have provoked your censorship.
It had to do with a 20th level fighter, a CR 10 squid, and a PC death.
I'm always baffled by people's sensitivity to the term 'rape' since its original use was meant to despoil, seize, etc. and not necessarily a sex crime.