Making a sorcerer and its for a new campaign (level 1) with an inexperienced GM. He asked us not to get too crazy on him. There are few good threads out right now about sorcerer spells but my question is about bloodlines. The general consensus i found from searching is that the Arcane is "THE BEST", I was wondering why so many people think its so much better? What are the other good effective bloodlines. I will be the magic of the group.
Barbarian (invunerable rager) w/ Greatsword,Elemental totem rage powers
Paladin w/ 2h weapon, probably falchin for the Crit range
Cleric w/fire and healing domains
Alchemist focused on bombs
What do people think of Fey and Infernal? Both give increased DC on cool effect spells.
Arcane is the go too mostly because of the extra spells known and the free metamagic. Also the arcane bond just puts almost all of the other first level powers to shame. I'm partial to Fey over Infernal, but it is really, really close. I just like the first level power better for fey, the knowledge is going to be more useful than diplomacy since you have a cleric and a paladin, and the feat selection is super nice for fey.
After arcane my go-to would be draconic, but that concept has been so beat into the ground for me its hard to take it serious anymore.
I don't think arcane is best. Some people just like it because it gives you some of the wizard like powers.
May not want infernal (though I like it) because of the potential for evil summons with your paladin close by. You might consider celestial instead. Though you don't look like you will need the extra healing.
The fey is very good though.
I like destined for the defensive help.
Elemental is good if you want to be a blaster.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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The bloodline powers supplement your main power *spells*. Figure out what sort of caster you want to be and choose a bloodline power from there.
Elemental or Draconic make decent blasters
Abberant can be awesome if you use lots of touch attacks.
Fey has some pretty kick butt enchantment bonuses...
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When designing a sorcerer, pick a theme and stick with it.
Since you're talking Fey and Infernal, it sounds like you're thinking of an enchanter/controller type. That's awesome, that's a good theme, let's work with it.
The enchanter/controller also works well with the rest of your party; a number of good meat shields and mid-range blaster support (alchemist bomber, fire cleric) means that you can afford to stay in the back and be the puppeteer.
Since the GM doesn't want you to get too crazy on him, I'm going to stick to the Core Rulebook. There are a few more options that are worth looking at in the Advanced Player's Guide, but they aren't necessary.
Both Fey and Infernal are excellent choices for a manipulator role. All in all, I agree with Kydeem's position that Infernal, while very awesome, will likely get you in trouble with your paladin (and your cleric, too; that looks like a cleric of Sarenrae, right?). In your case, I recommend Fey.
For starting spells, Sleep is the obvious choice for a first level Fey sorcerer. You can focus on save-or-suck style spells (the Confusion and Dominate lines works great with Fey), so you'll want as high a Charisma as you can manage. Get a 20 if you can. Thus, just out of the gate, your Sleep spell is DC 18, and that's before feats (Spell Focus: Enchantment and some traits). For your second spell, something like Grease or Silent Image would be great.
Basic tactics: Stay out of melee, let your meat shields be your main protection, and screw with the way your enemies think. If a bad guy gets close, use Laughing Touch to keep him from bothering you while your tanks come to your rescue and you flee far enough to blow his mind.
Focus on spells with some range on them; try to avoid combat Touch and even Close spells if possible. Stay friends with your cleric; undead will tend to be immune to your compulsions. Don't get stuck being the "party wizard"; you're a themed caster, not a mix-and-match preparer and magical knowledge guy (leave that role to the alchemist, he'll have the Intelligence for it).
Good feats are Spell Focus: Enchantment, Spell Penetration, and Silent and Still Spell (for sneakiness). I wouldn't worry about dealing damage, just shutting down opposition.
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With the party build you have, heavy melee, a cleric with good healing and a little blasting, and an explody alchemist, what the party needs most from an arcane caster is, in the order of priority, control, debuffing, some buffing (though cleric can do a lot of that, alchemist can buff himself), and some ranged blasting (alchemist won't be as versatile, even a fire cleric is limited at that).
Bearing that in mind, this is what I'd think of the merit of the bloodlines (take or leave, just my opinion):
Aberrant:
Pros:
- Knowledge (dungeoneering) good skill to have as class skill, only alchemist and fighter in your party would otherwise have it
- You have some good buff and control spells as bonus spells (enlarge person, see invis, black tentacles).
- Acidic ray nice little blast/fallback ability
- The ability to increase duration of polymorph spells helps with buffing
- You shouldn't be getting into melee with your party, but the ability to avoid crits and precision damage is nice if someone did sneak up on you
- Spell resistance at 15th level is nice
Cons:
- Most bonus feats and other abilities assume you're more of a close range caster, which you really, really should not be with your class's makeup.
- A lot of the truly cool stuff with this class doesn't hit till high level
Abyssal:
Pros:
- Decent bonus spells
- Decent resistances
- Bonus to summoning is nice, but...
Cons:
- With such a melee heavy party, summons could become more of a hassle to manage rather than be helpful (but summons can always be useful, it's more about tracking things)
- This is even more melee oriented--claws, a lot of the spells, strength bonus--really not necessary.
Arcane
Pros:
- Choice of your known knowledge is nice
- A lot of bonus spells are one any sorcerer would take anyway (dispel, dim door, overland flight, etc.)
- Arcane bond adds some flexibility (or a friend)
- Metamagic adept (and arcane apotheosis) can be very useful.
- Extra spells known are nice (but only happens rarely and at higher levels)
Cons:
- School power is a lame ability for a high level bonus -- other classes at 15th level are getting stuff like the ability to fly or avoid death.
- If you're not interested in using a lot of metamagic, not worth it
- Identify as your first bonus spell is truly meh
Celestial
Pros:
- Nice basic blasty ability
- Good resistances
- Ability to fly at 9th level without needing to know a spell--can free up slots to learn other spells. A lot of bloodlines offer this but not as early (usually at 15th)
Cons:
- With the fire and divinity theme, steps on the toes of your fire/healing cleric a bit
- Summoning bonus same concern as with Abyssal (plus the class doesn't get the other cool bonuses to summoning the Abyssal does)
Destined
Pros:
- 2 of your bonus spells, freedom of movement and break enchantment, are not from arcane list and cannot be gotten any other way as a sorcerer, but are very, very useful spells (and less toe-steppy than celestial's abilities)
- Very good choices for bonus feats
- Bloodline arcana is simple and very helpful
- The ability to avoid death is a much nicer 15th level ability than a +2 to DCs from one school. Just sayin'.
Cons:
- While the Destined bloodline has a lot of neat abilities that can help save your and your allies' lives, you don't get any boosts to your spellcasting, unlike a lot of the other bloodlines
- New GM may get annoyed by stuff like the rerolls you get
Draconic
Pros:
- Perception as a class skill is always useful
- Decent for some elemental blasting
- Breath weapon great fallback when you're out of spells or can't cast them for some reason (but still can use supernatural abilities)
- Nice resistances and armor bonus
Cons:
- Also tends to expect you to be in melee at times--claws isn't great 1st levela bility for what you're looking for
Elemental
Pros:
- Definitely good for some blasting power--plust you don't have to use as many spell slots for your blasty spells, saving them for other stuff you need
- Ability to change element of an elemental spell useful to a limited degree
- Resistances always useful (but not as good as some other bloodline resistances)
Cons:
- Most of your bonus spells taken up by elemental body, which is kind of a waste of bonus spells unless you plan to be an elemental a lot
Fey
Pros:
- Some fun and interesting bonus spells, including some spells that are otherwise divine spells, like entangle, poison and tree stride. Getting entangle is especially a nice, very useful, low level control spell.
- Invisibility as a spell like ability, even if at 9th level, still nice.
- Decent bonus spells, plus some good ones for ranged attacks which this party needs
- You think it looks like fun (if I am reading your post right). This is an incredibly important factor to work in, one definitely not to be discounted.
Cons:
- While the boost to compulsion spells is nice, and great for debuffing (that's a pro), the problem is they're very circumstantial. This bloodline is oriented in general toward a lot of mind affecting stuff, which is great if you're fighting a lot of humanoids and various other living creatures. But a lot of the abilities you have are useless against undead, oozes, constructs, plants, high level paladins, and other mindless creatures. However, if you know the campaign you are in will be one where you're dealing with a lot of living creatures, it could be just great.
- Woodland stride is also very circumstantial--cool, but a lot of other bloodlines' 3rd level abilities are much more generally useful.
Infernal
Pros:
- Decent resistances
- Who doesn't want to call down a column of hellfire?
- Again, you think it looks like fun
Cons:
- Corrupting touch is cool, but requires melee touch attack, and again, I don't think you should plan on being in melee very often.
- Bonus to charm spells is similar to the problem with fey's bonus to compulsion spells
Undead
Pros:
- Good debuffs available as bonus spells
- Good set of bonus feats
- Arcana is nifty, if limited
- I have used grasp of the dead against pcs. It is freaking awesome.
- Good resistances and eventual incorporeality is cool
Cons:
- Again with a lot of quasi melee stuff, like grave touch
- Not everyone wants to slowly transform into a half-dead horror
In summary
Were I you, personally I'd probably go arcane, destined, draconic, or elemental. But I am not you, so pick what seems the most fun.
I covered only core bloodlines as your GM is new and I am assuming trying to avoid the complexity of splats. That said, if you are allowed other sources, I would look at least at the APG bloodlines. I think a lot of them might actually suit this party well -- and some of your own predilections; for example, the dreamspun bloodline might scratch the itch to do more of a "mental" sorcerer but the abilities are a little more universally useful than fey. The protean bloodline has some extraplanar stuff (like infernal) but I think also could be more useful. And stuff like the shadow bloodline provides some extra sneaky in a party that has very, very little stealth.
Who caught it? >:D
If your gm lets you use Crossblooded Archetype, it can be fun to mix and match your powers/feats/spells from the different bloodlines, although the lack of spells known can be VERY painful (being a human reduces this as you can get spells known as favored class bonuses)
I would probably go with Fey myself with that group makeup, but I wouldn't get more than a handful of Compulsion spells on my list. As long as you can use them fairly often, you will get your moneys worth out of the arcana, but it is very important to be versatile with your choices. I usually like to take a couple controlly spells, a couple battlefield control spells (i.e. black tentacles etc) a couple blasty spells, a couple buff spells, and so forth. Try to avoid redunancy, and you can get the most out of the spells you DO know.
@ Deathquaker:
You said that Break Enchantment is not arcane, but it is on the sorcerer/wizard list.
I like the Fey blooded Magical Liniage Scorching Ray. Bonuses on compulsion, and Fey bonus feats Point Blank Shot and Precice shot, for the scorch.
You have the Scorch, 1-stop shop blasting, and can trick it out with metamagic and Spontanious Metafocus (elemental spell to get around fire resistance) strong compulsions for SOS, and then use no save spells, and ypu;re in the money
I haven't played a Pathfinder sorcerer yet, but Celestial stood out to me.
I agree with the "pick the theme that appeals the most to you" general theme in this thread.
The best spells are generally on the Arcane, Celestial, and Draconic List. None of them are exciting or cool spells, though, really, just solid ones you'll probably want to have but may never want to spend a slot on. Power Word Stun is the only stinker on the Arcane list, and the multiple Dragon Form spells are the only problem with Draconic. Boredom is the Celestial list's biggest flaw.
Fey has one of the best spells in the game (Entangle!), Shapechange which is awesome, and acceptable crowd control from Hideous Laughter and Irresistable Dance. However, I think Deep Slumber will generally be worthless within 3-5 levels of you acquiring it via the bloodline, Poison is strong but dangerous to use (since it's touch), and Tree Stride, Mislead, and Phase Door are disappointing because they are just very specific ways to do something more general spells already let you do. Nothing terrible, at least, and the 15th level reroll Spell Resistance is amazing.
Infernal is decent (Diplomacy as a class skill is probably the best you could ask for), I don't think the spells are as good overall as Fey. I mean, Protection from Good? Really? How often is that going to come up in your average Pathfinder game? Especially with a Paladin in the party. Power Word Stun is as bad for Infernal as it is for Arcane. Charm Monster, Dominate, and Greater Teleport are spells you are going to want anyway, so that's good. Scorching Ray is one of the best damage spells for its level, so that's also acceptable (though not ideal), but Meteor Swarm is just flat out bad. Planar Binding is interesting, but the best thing you can use it on is a Barbed Devil, which is, I don't know, "eh," especially with a Paladin in your party.
So, if you had to choose between Fey and Infernal, I'd highly recommend Fey. If you were open to other suggestions, I'd probably go Arcane.
Abyssal:
Pros:
- Decent bonus spells
Wait, what?! Abyssal is the bloodline I'd say probably had the worst spells. Rage and Transformation are nerfs that pretend to be buffs. Cause Fear obsoletes 2-3 levels after you acquire it. Bull's Strength is junk as soon as people get items to raise Strength. Stoneskin is good, but I don't like blowing 250gp to cast a 10 min/level spell that's only "good." Unholy Aura is nerfed to a +4 bonus to AC and saves that won't stack with your Ring of Protection or Cloak of Resistance in a typical PC party.
Greater Teleport and Summon Monster IX are the only great spells on the list, but much like the only reason anyone should ever take the Abyssal bloodline (Added Summonings), you need to wait until level 15 to actually benefit.
Destined
Pros:
- Very good choices for bonus feats
- Bloodline arcana is simple and very helpful
Again, what? Yes, Leadership is too good of a feat, and I don't know any GM that allows it. But other than Lightning Reflexes, what other feat on that list is even worth the effort to write it on your sheet? Weapon Focus: Ray, I guess?
And since when is a one round buff to saves when you cast a buff spell helpful? How many spells have a range of Personal that are not long-term buffs you're going to be casting well before any danger is near enough for your saves to matter?
Were I you, personally I'd probably go arcane, destined, draconic, or elemental.
I agree whole-heartedly with two of those recommendations (Arcana and Draconic), but find the other two to be easily some of the worst bloodlines.
I don't know, I don't get it--I'd be thrilled to get +2 to save DCs. That's just another nail in the coffin of the enemies I'll be facing as far as I'm concerned.
I actually dislike the Destined's 15th level power that you praise. I personally don't like planning on dying, and so would hope to never use the ability--and an ability that I never use is worthless to me.
We must have nearly opposite play styles.
I found a great use for the 7th level bonus feat is use it to pick up Skill Focus Knowledge (anything) and grab Eldritch Heritage (arcana) so you can get a familiar or arcane bond.
That's true, but then your bonus feat actually costs you two feats (since you obviously want Improved Familiar.
But yes, that is actually a good trick--I used to hate familiars and always wanted to trade them away. But in Pathfinder, I've become convinced they are one of the most versatile and powerful features a Wizard, Witch, or Sorcerer could want.
Can we talk about non-core, non-Orc bloodlines?
Cos I'm a fan of the Verdant Bloodline from APG
LV1 Power: Tanglevine. You grow a prehensile vine appendage that you can use to do a trip/disarm/steal maneuver using your Sorc lvl+CHA as CMB as a standard action (MUCH better than the claws/rays the other bloodlines give)
LV3 Power: Photosynthesis. You no longer need to eat, you only need to sleep for 2 hours. You also gain a +2 bonus against poison and sleep (+4 at lv9)
LV9 Power: Mass morph: As a Full Round, you can take vegetation and turn it into a giant mass of plants disallowing movement. You can also do Plant Shape once per turn at 15th
LV15 Power: Rooting: as a move action, you root yourself to the ground, reducing your speed to 5 feet, but your nat armor gets +4, and +10 against some maneuvers (Whatever).
LV20: Shepherd of the Trees: +4 nat armor, immune to paralysis, sleep, poison, polymorph, sleep and stunning. Plus tremorsense, plus fast healing.
The abilities are pretty druid-y, i know. But it gives some interesting options, as you can use your massmorph to create a forest thicket to control the battlefield. The extra 6 hours a day can be used on a craft skill.
The Bloodline Arcana probably won't be as much use to you. But it's good if you put yourself in harm's way
The feats aren't necessarily the best however:
Bonus Feats: Acrobatic Steps, Craft Staff, Endurance, Extend Spell, Fleet, Nimble Moves, Skill Focus (Knowledge [nature]), Toughness.
Extend Spell and Toughness are great feat options. Craft Staff could be useful with the extra time you get from Photosynthesis
Finally, the spells
Bonus Spells: entangle (3rd), barkskin (5th), speak with plants (7th), command plants (9th), wall of thorns (11th), transport via plants (13th), plant shape III (15th), animate plants (17th), shambler (19th).
You get druid spells. I think that's huge. You are getting spells you wouldn't otherwise learn
From these, Entangle is a great field control (which synergizes with massmorph).
Barkskin is a great buff. Your party will love you for using it, and you can use it on yourself to get your AC up. Hell, with a dex of 16, Mage armor and this spell, you can up your AC to 21+. Between Wand of Shield and rings of protection, you can get your AC decently high considering you're a caster.
Speaking with/command plants is whatever
Wall of Thorns can be a great field control spell, and do some damage on the side
Transport Via plants is an interesting teleport variant, so you can use it.
Plant shape: Sure, if you can retain spellcasting abilities.
Animate plants sounds hysterical if cast one of the battlefield control spells i mentioned earlier
Shambler? sure. It's a summoning spell that does not require a full round action.
So you can do some druid stuff in the sense of tangling up the battlefield to mess with opponents, with the added bonus of being able to cast Overland Flight on yourself at lv10 and do stuff from above. I recommend stealing your opponents' weapons and tripping them
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I found a great use for the 7th level bonus feat is use it to pick up Skill Focus Knowledge (anything) and grab Eldritch Heritage (arcana) so you can get a familiar or arcane bond.That's true, but then your bonus feat actually costs you two feats (since you obviously want Improved Familiar.
But yes, that is actually a good trick--I used to hate familiars and always wanted to trade them away. But in Pathfinder, I've become convinced they are one of the most versatile and powerful features a Wizard, Witch, or Sorcerer could want.
I suppose.
You give up you give up a fairly limited bonus feat plus a normal feat in exchange you get:
Then you can take improved familiar to gain... a really cool sidekick.
Arcane is a great bloodline if you're going to be casting spells with metamagic routinely. I love it for making Eldritch Knights, who largely end up using Still Spell a lot.
Fey is a one trick pony bloodline if you're not careful, though it is one hell of a trick. (First level adventures are kind of anti-climactic when you're throwing around a DC 18 or 19 sleep spell, and laughing touch is by far and away the best 'touch attack' ability sorcerers get.)
I love Fire Draconic + Half Orc favored class, because it actually makes blasting semi-viable...unless you're in an AP where damned near everything is immune to fire.
Another interesting choice for a 'blasty' themed Sorcerer is Starsoul bloodline from Ultimate Magic; the basic arcana effectively turns your Evocation spells with saving throws into Dazzling Spells.
From my experiences (i really love playing sorcerers):
1: Draconic (Linnorm) replacing the claws with the 3+cha/day elemental blasts REALLY helps at 1st level, I found that I was still using these blasts well into 5th level or so, after that you tend not to have to worry about running out of spells, but especially at 1st having 6-8/day 1d6+1 is very useful. At 3rd the AC boost and res are useful, breath weapon at 9th is pretty good, and unlimited flight at 15th is great.
2: Orc is surprisingly good for a blaster, if you are not playing a blaster forget it.
3: Arcane I like basically everything about this one but find it a bit bland, good spells, great abilities, if you aren't a fan of familairs then you could swap it out with the sage wildblooded, for casting off of INT (I find this significantly more useful) and for some early blasts (of force damage no less).
4: Celestial, yeah it might be stepping on toes, but this is a good one.
Avoid Elemental, it isn't that great. the spell list sucks, the feat list aint that great and resist 10 to one thing isn't usualluy as good as resist 5 to 2 things, the 9th level balst is occasionally useful, but only 1/day until very high levels, and if your game makes it to 15th, only the air movement is really worth much, on the other hand if you play past 20 the 20th is pretty awesome.
hope that helped
Abyssal:
Pros:
- Decent bonus spellsWait, what?! Abyssal is the bloodline I'd say probably had the worst spells. Rage and Transformation are nerfs that pretend to be buffs. Cause Fear obsoletes 2-3 levels after you acquire it. Bull's Strength is junk as soon as people get items to raise Strength. Stoneskin is good, but I don't like blowing 250gp to cast a 10 min/level spell that's only "good." Unholy Aura is nerfed to a +4 bonus to AC and saves that won't stack with your Ring of Protection or Cloak of Resistance in a typical PC party.
Greater Teleport and Summon Monster IX are the only great spells on the list, but much like the only reason anyone should ever take the Abyssal bloodline (Added Summonings), you need to wait until level 15 to actually benefit.
Remember that I was posting from the perspective of trying to find good abilities bearing in mind that particular sorcerer's party build---not what I was recommending as good in general. I was thinking control, buffs, and debuffs are good; the abyssal spell list has a lot of the latter.
Cause Fear is limited but useful at low levels (depending on the speed of the campaign, it may even be useful for quite awhile).
Bull's Strength has saved lives and killed many a monster in the campaigns I've played in--not to mention, you're not going to be able to guarantee when you will get stat boosting items (I've had GMs that hate them and tend to never include them in treasure, so that may be where my perspective skews from yours). Also, if you're going to craft items that boost Strength, you need to know the spell to make it... (although cleric also has that option).
Rage is good for the melee heavy party this particular sorcerer will be participating in.
It's not a spell list I'd recommend to everyone or every kind of sorcerer, just as I was reviewing it with certain criteria in mind, it seemed a decent list to me. We can of course agree to disagree. Given I don't otherwise highly recommend the Abyssal bloodline anyway
Again, what? Yes, Leadership is too good of a feat, and I don't know any GM that allows it. But other than Lightning Reflexes, what other feat on that list is even worth the effort to write it on your sheet? Weapon Focus: Ray, I guess?Destined
Pros:
- Very good choices for bonus feats
- Bloodline arcana is simple and very helpful
I liked Endurance, Diehard, Leadership, Lightning Reflexes, Maximize Spell, and Weapon Focus (for as you say, rays, which is good for some precision blasting which the party doesn't have a lot of). For free feats, I'd take any of those for nearly any class I played, personally. That is as you say likely a play style/preference thing.
And since when is a one round buff to saves when you cast a buff spell helpful? How many spells have a range of Personal that are not long-term buffs you're going to be casting well before any danger is near enough for your saves to matter?
'Cause I missed the for 1 round part when reading through the list quickly. My bad.
Were I you, personally I'd probably go arcane, destined, draconic, or elemental.I agree whole-heartedly with two of those recommendations (Arcana and Draconic), but find the other two to be easily some of the worst bloodlines.
Again, remember I was taking his party build into account.
I don't know, I don't get it--I'd be thrilled to get +2 to save DCs. That's just another nail in the coffin of the enemies I'll be facing as far as I'm concerned.
You get this bonus at 15th level, by which time, your saves should already be more than good enough to beat your enemies most of the time (I ran a game that started at 14th level, 15 point buy, and the spellcasters normally had saves the monsters had trouble beating most of the time, so I am speaking from experience here). And while it stacks with Spell Focus, Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus are probably all you really need if you feel your spell saves are too low.
Sure, generally speaking, a +2 to saves is a good thing. But as a class ability you don't get until 15th level (a rare level for players to even see), it's kind of meh. Especially since it's only to spells of one school, which is actually a bit of a trap for a sorcerer, because sorcerers don't know a lot of spells, and if they try to learn just one school's worth of spells for the most part, they will probably screw themselves over. Compared to other 15th level bloodline abilities, it's bland, too circumstantial, and largely unnecessary, IMO.
I actually dislike the Destined's 15th level power that you praise. I personally don't like planning on dying, and so would hope to never use the ability--and an ability that I never use is worthless to me.
"Praise" is a strong world. I think it's a neat ability. And of course no one plans on dying, and yet at 15th level, the likelihood of someone making a crappy save or getting hit by the wrong monster is pretty damn high. You're right, it's very circumstantial and that's its greatest weakness. The rule of cool factor in part wins me over on it. I'd never take the bloodline for that ability alone, but if I played a high level destined bloodline sorcerer, I'd probably be very glad I had it.
Thanks everyone for their input. Especially Deathquaker and InVinoVevitas for the in depth look at why they made their choices. I'm leaning toward Fey right now, mostly because I'm not a fan of Metamagics. Granted this will be my first sorcerer but i have discovered on wizards I never mem'd a spell modified by metamagic. Their was always a better spell at the level slot I would have used. So I was thinking against Arcane. Now Later, due to small spell selection, I might regret it but for now I think Fey looks like a lot of fun. And having fun is important.
Another option to consider is playing a gnome. You get a bonus to your casting stat, and a bonus to the save DC of illusion spells (allowing you to branch out into more magics). And since gnomes are fey creatures anyways, the bloodline explains itself.
Is it worth playing a Gnome? The favorite class bonus of human being you can pick up extra known spells 1 level below your highest just seems too good to pass up. Is playing Gnome or Halfing really worth that kind of flexibility?
...Is it worth playing a Gnome? The favorite class bonus of human being you can pick up extra known spells 1 level below your highest just seems too good to pass up. Is playing Gnome or Halfing really worth that kind of flexibility?
I would rate human and gnome as tied for 1st for this kind of build. Elf is also a very strong contender.
Human extras are obvious and hard to pass up.Gnome gets +2 to cha and con which should arguably be your 2 highest stats. Also, +1 DC to all illusions whcih seems like the kind of thing a fey would make significant use of. On top of that, they have bonus to AC, stealth, perception, save vs illusion. Plus they're funny to think about the cute little gnome trying to rule the minds of every one. Kind of a 'Pinky and the Brain' complex.
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Another option to consider is playing a gnome. You get a bonus to your casting stat, and a bonus to the save DC of illusion spells (allowing you to branch out into more magics). And since gnomes are fey creatures anyways, the bloodline explains itself.Is it worth playing a Gnome? The favorite class bonus of human being you can pick up extra known spells 1 level below your highest just seems too good to pass up. Is playing Gnome or Halfing really worth that kind of flexibility?
The best way to make that decision is to plot out a planned spell progression as you rise in level. Figure out which spells you want when, and which you'll trade out when. The Human sorcerer ability is, over 20 levels, 2 spells of each level from 1-7, and 3 spells of level 8, at the cost of either 17 HP or 17 skill points (I'm assuming you don't take three extra cantrips for your first three levels). Depending on what you want to do, it's worth it or not. Remember to scale back the value of the extra spells (and their cost) if you think the campaign won't last to level 20. You might find yourself needing those extra spells... and you might not.
I reject conventional thinking and say that the extra spells are not necessarily the be-all and end-all choice for the sorcerer. The reason is that I don't play sorcerers when I want to play wizards; I trade versatility for spontaneity quite specifically with sorcerers. No, I won't have the right tool for every job, but that's okay, that's why I travel with an adventuring party.
Also, gnomes make great sorcerers. I'd say the choice should be between gnomes and humans, but they're both great choices. Although humans get +1 skill point per level, gnomes get +1 HP per level (via +2 Con). This means you're comparing the value of the extra human feat and the extra spells vs. extra HP/skill pts, small size, and the various gnome racial traits. Since you're talking about alternate favored class bonuses, take a look at the alternate gnome traits as well. Gnome Magic and Illusion Resistance are great by themselves, but Eternal Hope, Gift of Tongues, and Master Tinker are also quite useful. Warden of Nature should also prove of value, since it gives you some extra protection against oozes and vermin, which will be immune to most compulsions.
So I'd recommend thinking about the gnome. I think you'll do fine whether you choose gnome or human, so it's more about how you want the character to progress.
If you're in a campaign where Spell Resistance is likely, the Elven bonus against SR and Penetrating Spell as metamagic go a LONG way towards evening the gap.
If you're in a campaign where Spell Resistance is likely, the Elven bonus against SR and Penetrating Spell as metamagic go a LONG way towards evening the gap.
Due to circumstances i cant explain here, I'm an extreme racist. I refuse to play an elf. I detest the race in every form on near every world/setting. Only exception to this are that dark elves are tolerable. Probably still wouldn't play one. I play a Dwarven sorcerer before I would play an elven one.
/rant off
Ideas on first few Feats?
@InVinoVevitas, I tried to plot out some spells but I think the wizard mentality is crippling me. For 2nd level spells I got: Glitterdust, See invis, Invisiblity, Mirrior Image, Scorching Ray. I didnt even get a chance to put a Complusion or Illusion spell on there. Feels like all those are needed utility and a dmg spell. Im going to need to get scrolls of the first 2 arnt I? This spell limitation is going to be harder than I thought.
Looking at it in the morning with fresh eyes, I think fey is in fact an even better choice then I lined out earlier. So rock on.
I think Gnome would be a good choice (especially if you're allowed to use some of the alternate racial traits, like swapping hatred and defensive training for something like eternal hope).
I think InVinoVeritas makes a very good suggestion about planning on how your gain your sorcerer spells as you level. If it looks like you can work with the spells you have with no extra spells, AND you generally would prefer playing gnome anyway, then it's not worth taking human. Or put another way, if the only reason you'd take human is for the extra spells it may not be worth it. (Now, if you otherwise want human--hey, bonus feats and extra skill points are always lovely--that's a different story.)
Personally, I always wonder why gnomes didn't get a favored class option for sorcerer as the class suits the race so well--but extra skill points or hit points aren't to be sneezed at.
... I tried to plot out some spells but I think the wizard mentality is crippling me. For 2nd level spells I got: Glitterdust, See invis, Invisiblity, Mirrior Image, Scorching Ray. I didnt even get a chance to put a Complusion or Illusion spell on there. Feels like all those are needed utility and a dmg spell. Im going to need to get scrolls of the first 2 arnt I? This spell limitation is going to be harder than I thought.
You're trying to be a wizard. Won't work and you won't be happy.
Glitterdust and see invisibility are too close to the same for your limited spell selection. Pick one.
Invisibility and mirror image are also both basically defensive spells. Pick one.
A common strategy is to pick 1 each of offense, defense, and utility of each level. Then after that you can fill in with whatever you like.
But part of what IVV was saying is plan it by sorc level not just by spell level.
What will I have as a 1st level sorc that I can still be effective and survive.
What will I add at 2nd level that I can still be...
Because You won't have 4 different 2nd level spells when you get to 4th level as a sorc. Remember you can switch out a very small number of them as you level.
Also, some GM's will allow you to switch out a spell that just seem to not work very well. Discuss with your GM. Some allow it especially if you are wanting to try some of the less common spells just so they get to see them in action.
@InVinoVevitas, I tried to plot out some spells but I think the wizard mentality is crippling me. For 2nd level spells I got: Glitterdust, See invis, Invisiblity, Mirrior Image, Scorching Ray. I didnt even get a chance to put a Complusion or Illusion spell on there. Feels like all those are needed utility and a dmg spell. Im going to need to get scrolls of the first 2 arnt I? This spell limitation is going to be harder than I thought.
First, that suggests to me you ought to be Human for extra spells.
Second, you don't need See Invisibility. Glitterdust and a member of your party with a good Perception check to point to the general area of the invisible enemies will do.
I don't think you need Scorching Ray, but I'm the Control>Blast type, personally. I will admit Scorching Ray is probably the best damaging spell you get for a long time, though.
As for fitting a Compulsion in, well, there won't always be one available that is worth taking.
Daze Monster, Compassionate Ally, Qualm, and Unnatural Lust are terrible.
Tactical Acumen and Touch of Idiocy have no saves.
Hideous Laughter is very good, but only against your type (the +4 is killer). The good news is, though, that you get it for free.
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Here's an example Fey sorcerer spell progression using only the CRB. The numbers are the spells gained at each level. Bonus spells are in italics.
1: 000011; Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Sleep, Silent Image
2: 0; Disrupt Undead
3: 1; Entangle, Enlarge Person
4: 02; Read Magic, Invisibility
5: 12; Hideous Laughter, Magic Missile, See Invisibility
6: 03; Message, Haste
7: 123; Deep Slumber, Comprehend Languages, Glitterdust, Suggestion
8: 04; Light, Confusion
9: 234; Poison, Blindness/Deafness, Fly, Black Tentacles
10: 05; Arcane Mark, Feeblemind
11: 2345; Tree Stride, Resist Energy, Tongues, Wall of Ice, Dominate Person
12: 6; Flesh to Stone
13: 456; Mislead, Stone Shape, Shadow Evocation, Permanent Image
14: 7; Greater Shadow Conjuration
15: 567; Phase Door, Polymorph, Globe of Invulnerability, Reverse Gravity
16: 8; Maze
17: 78; Irresistible Dance, Greater Arcane Sight, Prismatic Wall
18: 9; Dominate Monster
19: 89; Shapechange, Mind Blank, Time Stop
20: 9; Wish
This is just a first pass, but take a look and decide what you might change.
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3) Aside from that, Use Magic Device is your friend. It's a class skill, and it's tied to your Charisma, so you can easily build up a UMD score that will let you use pretty much any kind of wand, scroll, magic device, etc. Then you can stock up on scrolls or whatever for all those situational utility spells that you daren't waste a spell slot on.
Actually, you don't need the UMD skill to use scrolls and wands of sorcerer/wizard spells. You would only need to make a skill check if trying to use a wand of a spell that you couldn't get from your class.
So if you don't take magic missile as a known spell, you can still use a wand of magic missile all you want without a skill check. But if you want to use a wand of cure light wounds, you'll need to make the UMD skill check to use it. Which makes UMD and a wand of CLW a good way for you to heal party members between fights, but I wouldn't count on you to be the party's healer during combat - you've got better things to do than make skill checks that could fail in the middle of a battle.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Is it worth playing a Gnome? The favorite class bonus of human being you can pick up extra known spells 1 level below your highest just seems too good to pass up. Is playing Gnome or Halfing really worth that kind of flexibility?
Depends on what you want to do. Gnomes get some nice racial features that are sorcerer friendly and the ability bonuses are perfect for sorcerers. You can also pick up the extra spells with feats when/ where you need them.