Isn't it overkill?
I am not even concerned about the power. I am more concerned about new players being overwhelmed, as they should in theory familiarize themselves with dozens of spells even at level one.
Anyone houseruling this? Is there a need to do so - or am I overeacting?
I like how the rules deal with the wizards access to spells. It is more gradual and only forces the player to learn a handful of spells at first.
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Well, you could come up with an "automatic" spell list tailored to each deity; anything beyond that list would require research [as per wizard rules]. Still have the vast access that is part of the cleric's appeal, but limited to a manageable number at a time [e.g. new players will be unlikely to try to go beyond your list until they become more familiar].
The fact they're still bound by preparation rituals, only being able to cast a certain number per day and still need a minimum ability score to cast a spell makes this a non-issue to me.
A suggestions from my gm is to pick out certain spells as my "go to" spells and just use those as a standard spell list. I picked out an urban, rural, and 'vs devils" list. It has streamlined things quite a bit for me and has cut down on some of the hassle all of those choices.
Well if you are the GM, you could rule they work like a wizard with a prayer books and such.
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Is it really any more overwhelming to have to choose from the whole list every morning than to have to choose from the whole list once and be stuck with the choices?
At least if a cleric makes a bad choice one day he can choose something else tomorrow.
And not all divine casters get that ability. Only clerics, I believe. Oracles and Inquisitors have to choose.
Don't forget Druid, Ranger, Paladin, and Anti-Paladin. They have an "open" list as well.
And to be honest I think that the Deity tailored lists sounds the most interesting.
Here's what I do:
Divine casters have a prayer book. They can always prepare spells from the core book and maybe the APG without the use of the prayer book. The prayer book works like a spellbook for spells from Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat or other sources. You don't get those automatically.
Put this in the overreaction stack. I don't see a reason to, or a way to "houserule" this, per se. What you could do with new players is recommend a list of easy-to-use spells, but that probably doesn't even bear mentioning. In my experience, the other players will already be recommending to the new player what he should take as a divine caster.
More serious and experienced players have probably perused most of the spells already. Just as they love sitting around memorizing the Bestiary when you're not looking.
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What I do with my own clerics, and would probably recommend for others', is prepare an initial list of spells when I create the character. I mostly leave it alone every day, only tweaking here and there as I level up and find that I'm just not using certain spells. I think it is overwhelming for a player (especially one who is new to the game) to feel like he or she needs to consult the entire spell list every time spell preparation comes around.
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My issue with it has been the more exotic and while not combat powerful, 'setting' powerful spells that showed up later. I may even reconsider the availability of some of the core spells.
The wizard struggles and quests for the ancient knowledge lost to the destruction of a civilization. Finally, in the heart of a tomb guarded by unfathomable monstrosities, there it is. The secret of creation once held only by the gods. A tablet inscribed with the knowledge of the foundation of reality.
"Create demiplane."
The cleric looks at the tablet, shrugs, and says, "Is this what you were after? I just ask my god and get demiplanes made for me all the time. See this one here? I use it to keep my lunch in. The demiplane of lunch."
(Yes, I know the wizard could just take it as a level up spell; shut up)
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They are prohibited a lot of spells given their spell list, their alignment limits them more and some spells are domain only. They have a spell list designed with the idea in mind that those spells are available to them. Wizards and Clerics get very different spell lists. Clerics get a lot of situational spells that could be very useful and few almost always useful spells.
I'd say your over-reacting. New players aren't looking at the whole spell list either, they'll be looking at the lower level spells and can experiment a lot with things to see what they like.
It is no more overwhelming then the rules for combat or how skills work which are vastly more important to the game as a whole.
Isn't it overkill?I am not even concerned about the power. I am more concerned about new players being overwhelmed, as they should in theory familiarize themselves with dozens of spells even at level one.
Anyone houseruling this? Is there a need to do so - or am I overeacting?
I like how the rules deal with the wizards access to spells. It is more gradual and only forces the player to learn a handful of spells at first.
I rather liked the Spheres concept in 2E AD&D with spells limited to a universal list and spheres based on the deities portfolio. The typical low level Cleric / Priest still has access to far more spells than any arcane caster but they are thematic and tied to the deity in question. Someone had a version of these lists on the homebrew section a while back as I recall. Might be worth your time to search for it. I've considered adopting it (and my only current Cleric player is OK with it -- he lived with it in 2E) but haven't made a firm decision on it.
*edit* And here it is:
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz26gj?Priest-Spheres-for-Pathfinder#0
My issue with it has been the more exotic and while not combat powerful, 'setting' powerful spells that showed up later. I may even reconsider the availability of some of the core spells.
The wizard struggles and quests for the ancient knowledge lost to the destruction of a civilization. Finally, in the heart of a tomb guarded by unfathomable monstrosities, there it is. The secret of creation once held only by the gods. A tablet inscribed with the knowledge of the foundation of reality.
"Create demiplane."
The cleric looks at the tablet, shrugs, and says, "Is this what you were after? I just ask my god and get demiplanes made for me all the time. See this one here? I use it to keep my lunch in. The demiplane of lunch."
(Yes, I know the wizard could just take it as a level up spell; shut up)
Gotta love that demiplane of lunch. I've thought about giving them 4 freebies per level and extras beyond that as per wizard spellbook. Haven't tried it yet though.
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To make the demiplane of lunch, a wizard needs to find the Omnomnomicon. No easy task after the demon minotaur Alton Browncow stole it away from the Goddess of Butter.
Goddess of Butter
Paula Deen?
You are overreacting.
Goddess of ButterPaula Deen?
No, Paulae Deenificent.
I've found that the open spell list helps more than it hinders. That is, if a new player makes a choice that ends up not fitting, then they aren't stuck.
One of the reasons I suggest clerics for new players is that very ability...and because they're one of the most appreciated classes, generally speaking. If you don't know anyone at the table, then "Hey, I'm playing a cleric" is usually a quick way to get welcomed and begin breaking down those barriers that can lead to greater friendships later on.
Pretty much. Clerics and druids may have a huge field to choose from every day, at least in principle, but they also suffer the least for making 'wrong' choices, since not only can they just change up the next day, the have the ability to just drop a useless spell for an effect that's likely to be useful nearly every single day (healing, some damage, or SNA.) I think it's actually a lot harder for a brand new player to be a wizard, since when they level up or create a character, there are long-term consequences for 'picking wrong'. I like the design because it allows spellcasters to prepare niche spells that they can occasionally bust out with without feeling like they're squandering a bunch of character power.
Of course, if I was DMing for a new player and they were playing a wizard, I'd probably let them change things around as much as they wanted early on as they were getting a feel. I'm generally way more liberal then the RAW retraining rules for arcane classes; as long as someone isn't abusing the privilege or just retailoring their character for maximum impact on each adventure, I'm fine with them changing things up a little. (That is, if the current adventure is going to be against a lot of fire monsters, you don't get to change your sorc's fire spells for cold spells just for that, but if after playing for a few levels, you wish you had chosen more spells with social and travel utility, I'm fine with that.)