Last saturday my group and me got together to design new characters for our new Pathfinder campaign. We had had a few talks prior to that about what was allowed and what wasn't, but since this is the group I've been DMing to since around 1998, I didn't worry too much about bad characters. Also, we never really worry about creating balanced parties (I find it more entertaining that way, since they'll have to work out the missing parts creatively).
And there were no bad characters.
But when we gathered to work on the storylines, they presented their characters (designed at home to speed things up), and what I got was:
-2 summoners
-2 druids
-A warrior
-A cavalier
So six characters, with an extra of 4 pets, plus a potential of many more summoned creatures. They all have outstandingly interesting concepts, but I was thinking the numbers, and the minimum amount of stuff involved in a typical combat would be 11 entities (6 characters, 4 pets, and at least 1 enemy), and that's counting out the cavalier's horse and any potential NPC ally.
Today I realised I should have presented the issue during the character creation session, but we got carried away with storytelling and the point escaped my mind. And while I enjoy challenges, I don't think I want to run a campaign with that many individuals again (I once ran a 12-player campaign for 2 years. Great fun, but I aged 10 years).
How would you break the issue to the party? These are my best friends, so it's not really a confidence issue, but more like "Who should take one for the team" thing. Or maybe there is a better way to fix it than asking someone to change classes.
Help me, Advice subforum of the Paizo boards. I don't want to die like the guy in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. I don't want to choose poorly!
Try two parties? Pretty much identical roles and you could always have them unite for big encounters.
the only thing I can think to suggest is to change things around a bit so you have larger, fewer battles.
Everyone can play what they want and if people start to complain about battles taking all night, then bring point out what you see as being the problem.
The pets are not good enough to count as full characters. Well maybe the eidolons are. I would prep as for 6 to 8 characters. All that really involves is adding more low level bad guys to serve as meat shields.
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Convince the summoners to built utility-eidolons rather than combat brutes.
Convince the druids to take the domain option over an animal companion.
Assuming your cavalier isn't committed to mounted charging or something similar work with your cavalier to replace the mount class feature with something else.
A warrior? Really?!?
Anyway, one of our usual houserules is that no “pets/companions/etc” (Familiars don’t count unless they fight) and no more than one summons active per side at a time. This is for games with 6+ players, which yours also has. The problem is table time- with 11 figures on the board for the Good Guys, combats will really drag down, time-wise. So, just tell them other DM’s have said this makes the combats take too long. They can adapt, I am sure.
Druids can take domains instead of pets, so Ferals advice is good. Don’t let the Summoners try the sythesist version, it’s super broken. Pretty much, you’ll have to ask them to try another class.
Mounts might be OK, since they are only useful about 1/3 the time.
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Summoners don't have to build combat-monster eidolons - that's just a myth. They can build a utility eidolon that doesn't hog combat time and do just fine.
Consider an eidolon with Skilled: Perception, Disable Device, and Sense Motive and suddenly you have a awesome stand-in for a rogue. What about an eidolon with flight and spellcasting evolutions that just acts as a mount for a character?
Also, synthesists are only broken if your players build them that way and you let them. Shoot down any 7/7/7/18/18/18 characters and they'll be fine. Check out my synthesist here for an example of a nonabusive synthesist.
Streamlining combat is the key.
-I recommend Trailblazer's rules for iterative attacks and attacks of opportunity.
-Consider having the druids and summoners roll one hit roll for all of their pets' attacks--all or nothing.
-Disallow summon monster and summon nature's ally.
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On how to break it to them, tell it to them straight and ask for volunteers to switch classes. Who knows, maybe you will have a couple of creative types who will take one for the team. Maybe they will all throw it in for the team, and come up with something else.
You should have seen our last campaign.
-2 rogues
-a bard
-a druid
-a barbarian
-a monk
-a sorc
-a wiz
-a pally
-a cleric
Thanks for all the ideas.
I ended up meeting up with three of them earlier today for breakfast (icecream waffles. It is always easier to talk these things out in the solemn presence of icecream waffles), and went with Osterisk's idea of asking volunteers. Turns out the three are willing to change their characters (one druid into domains and scrapping summoning spells altogether in exchange for other spells, and the two summoners into different classes altogether, a paladin and a sorcerer) into other good ideas they had in storage.
Later today I expect to talk to the remaining druid, but I think he'll be cooperative.
Thanks a lot for the ideas. Much appreciated.
Glad to be of help, I know our group always has more ideas than opportunities to play, I knew my group would be cooperative. I figured yours would as well.
And the Ice cream waffles was a stroke of genius! As a fellow Waffleteer, I heartily approve.
Ice cream waffles? You sir, are a sneeky-sneeky man!
Ice cream waffles? You sir, are a sneeky-sneeky man!
Another option at your disposal is splitting into two gaming groups and running the same content twice in a row for both groups, but it looks like you're a little short for that.
Summoners don't have to build combat-monster eidolons - that's just a myth. They can build a utility eidolon that doesn't hog combat time and do just fine.
Consider an eidolon with Skilled: Perception, Disable Device, and Sense Motive and suddenly you have a awesome stand-in for a rogue. What about an eidolon with flight and spellcasting evolutions that just acts as a mount for a character?
Also, synthesists are only broken if your players build them that way and you let them. Shoot down any 7/7/7/18/18/18 characters and they'll be fine. Check out my synthesist here for an example of a nonabusive synthesist.
True, our summoner (3rd level) has a eidolon with Perception maxed out, and it’s very helpful. You’ll see few builds like that suggested, however.
Synthesists are broken as the rules are poorly written and have not been errated fully. Just look at the threads about them.
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Thanks for all the ideas.
I ended up meeting up with three of them earlier today for breakfast (icecream waffles. It is always easier to talk these things out in the solemn presence of icecream waffles), and went with Osterisk's idea of asking volunteers. Turns out the three are willing to change their characters (one druid into domains and scrapping summoning spells altogether in exchange for other spells, and the two summoners into different classes altogether, a paladin and a sorcerer) into other good ideas they had in storage.
Later today I expect to talk to the remaining druid, but I think he'll be cooperative.
Thanks a lot for the ideas. Much appreciated.
Good job. Otherwise it would have been very annoying. Either for you, or for them.
One way my DM uses to speed up combat with pets is for them not to roll initiative separately -- they go either just before or just after their masters, and the player is given no more time than the player of a single combatant to decide what to do. That one rule seems to work well to keep things moving along.
To make fights move faster, you can use "old school" party initiative instead of individual initiative and don't use minis. Sketch the scene with approximate locations, then keep the players oriented through constant feedback about everyone's location and status.
There's one sure way depopulate the party. KILL THEM!!! DRAMATIC CHARACTER DEATHS!!! FEED ON THEIR SORROW!!!
Or, you know, the waffle thing works too.