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Okay so Bards are seen as the most useless class amongst most of the people that sit at my table and those in my PFS group. I know Bards are amazing but have never built and played one myself. I have an upcoming Carrion Crown campaign I'm co-DMing and want to either use a Ranger or a Bard, though I'm aiming towards the Bard atm and I want him to be Melee based with plenty of skills and support to help out the party.
So would a Sword and Boards approach or a 2Handed build work better usually?
Would Arcane Duelist be better than base Bard since I plan on wading into combat but hate to lose Bardic Knowledge??
Basic build high str, decent dex, con, cha (16 at some point) and low int and wis sound about right??
Even though I want melee build, would a compound bow be handy to have at all times with a feat or two in archery??
And finally did UC help them out much, because most of my attention was focused on Fighting Styles and Archery feats so I haven't really sat down to try and find good feats for a bard yet.
Thanks all
If your buddies think the bard is the most useless class, they clearly haven't ever heard of the rogue.
Here's some stuff I wrote in the past.
Then read this. (The post right after the above one)
The only shield you can use would be a Light Shield or a Buckler. Keep that in mind. You need that hand open! I don't have much experience with sword-and-board style though, so I can't offer much help.
But in general, it depends on what you want. With Mirror Image, AC isn't so important. I mean, it's still important. But with all those miss chances...
A compound shortbow is a good idea. It lets you do stuff at range if you sword won't help. I wouldn't recommend the feats for it though, since you need a gateway one to get any of the really good feats. Maybe Deadly Aim, but that's only useful (for you) against foes that aren't near any of your allies, and with no allies between you and them. Otherwise, that -4 or -8 to hit will make DA useless.
High str and a Cha of 14 will do you wonders.
Oh, right. Arcane Duelist.
Arcane Duelist is pretty good for a melee bard, especially one who will be in a campaign with lots of casters.
Do note that with the 5th level ability, you need your weapon in hand to cast any spell without the concentration check.
I love the archetype's idea, but I love bardic knowledge a little bit more. It's fun knowing things, IMO.
So I just take Arcane Strike and call it even :D
Okay so Bards are seen as the most useless class amongst most of the people that sit at my table and those in my PFS group. I know Bards are amazing but have never built and played one myself. I have an upcoming Carrion Crown campaign I'm co-DMing and want to either use a Ranger or a Bard, though I'm aiming towards the Bard atm and I want him to be Melee based with plenty of skills and support to help out the party.
So would a Sword and Boards approach or a 2Handed build work better usually?
Would Arcane Duelist be better than base Bard since I plan on wading into combat but hate to lose Bardic Knowledge??
Basic build high str, decent dex, con, cha (16 at some point) and low int and wis sound about right??
Even though I want melee build, would a compound bow be handy to have at all times with a feat or two in archery??
And finally did UC help them out much, because most of my attention was focused on Fighting Styles and Archery feats so I haven't really sat down to try and find good feats for a bard yet.
Thanks all
Sandman.
Sandman.
...is a fine choice for a thief/mage. For someone who wants to bash stuff? not so much.
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If your buddies think the bard is the most useless class, they clearly haven't ever heard of the rogue.
Here's some stuff I wrote in the past.
Then read this. (The post right after the above one)
The only shield you can use would be a Light Shield or a Buckler. Keep that in mind. You need that hand open! I don't have much experience with sword-and-board style though, so I can't offer much help.
But in general, it depends on what you want. With Mirror Image, AC isn't so important. I mean, it's still important. But with all those miss chances...
A compound shortbow is a good idea. It lets you do stuff at range if you sword won't help. I wouldn't recommend the feats for it though, since you need a gateway one to get any of the really good feats. Maybe Deadly Aim, but that's only useful (for you) against foes that aren't near any of your allies, and with no allies between you and them. Otherwise, that -4 or -8 to hit will make DA useless.
High str and a Cha of 14 will do you wonders.
Thanks Cheapy, I'm glad it was you that got a first post in because I like others am waiting on the Bard Guide =P and now honestly I'm torn on giving up all those amazing Bardic skill toys for Bladethirst...im not sure I can do it anymore
Must an arcane duelist bond with a chosen weapon? Or can he just choose not to take "advantage" of the class feature and not have to worry about concentration checks if he loses it?
It's slowly coming.
Still trying to come up with a focus for it. Probably something alone the lines of showcasing the versatility, rather than a straight up optimization guide.
Psisquared: Yes, he must take a weapon.
At 5th level, an arcane duelist gains the arcane bond ability as a wizard, using a weapon as his bonded item. He may not choose a familiar or other type of bonded item. He may use the hand holding his bonded weapon for somatic components.
It does have the awesome ability of using the weapon for somatic components.
But if you want to cast spells in non-social situations, it's a bit weird to be swinging around your sword. IMO, that's the thing that brings it from a "almost always recommend" to a "well, it depends..."
It's slowly coming.
Still trying to come up with a focus for it. Probably something alone the lines of showcasing the versatility, rather than a straight up optimization guide.
Psisquared: Yes, he must take a weapon.
At 5th level, an arcane duelist gains the arcane bond ability as a wizard, using a weapon as his bonded item. He may not choose a familiar or other type of bonded item. He may use the hand holding his bonded weapon for somatic components.It does have the awesome ability of using the weapon for somatic components.
But if you want to cast spells in non-social situations, it's a bit weird to be swinging around your sword. IMO, that's the thing that brings it from a "almost always recommend" to a "well, it depends..."
So then a wizard who doesn't want a familiar must also have an arcane bonded item. He can't go through his whole career with nothing.
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I've played a few bards and have found that they function best as archers. I rather like Treantmonk's archer bard build as a foundation even though it is very feat intensive.
Carrion Crown will really suit a bard. We're doing part 1 at the moment and having someone with strong knowledges would make our lives a lot easier, almost to the point that it my current character dies a bard will be my first choice to replace him.
There are also a feat line (Master Performer} in the faction guide that can make your performance buffing stupidly good. You'll need to talk to your GM about access to it though.
Also remember that Bard is a good start for a Dragon Disciple. A 4 level dip will not hurt your casting much at all and will give you +4 Str, an extra feat (from a decent list), +3 NA, 3 limited use Natural weapons (including a bite that does 1 1/2 Str damage that can be used alongside of using a manufactured weapon, +5 resistance to one energy type and a little breath weapon, which isn't that great if you don't go straight sorcerer, but can be fun against swarms.
I prefer combat reflexes and a reach weapon as well, because you can get some decent Attacks of Opportunity as well that way, and with a lower BAB, it will bump your # of attacks as well. Not to mention if you can get one of your caster frienemies to cast enlarge person on you, you got a range of 20'. More AoO and full attacks? Yes Please.
Greetings, fellow travellers.
Just to chime in that the bard is an amazing class - and I am also waiting for another (and updated) opinion on the bard and the classes possibilities, Cheapy! Good old Treantmonk's got a bit rusty over time.
After weighing all the possibilities, I have settled for the vanilla bard - as you said, loosing bardic knowledge makes for a sad, sad bard.
If you're dead set on the Arcane Duelist:
For weapon bond I would go for a dagger - having your own personal knife in hand when being in social situations like a banquet for cutting meat, bread, opponents, cleaning your nails while talking to a guard or whittling away at some piece of wood to create the next pawn for the grand game should cover your spellcasting well enough.
For increase of STR - have you considered four levels of Dragon Disciple? There is an old threat floating around, where this combination is discussed quite extensively. Plus with natural armor you could go for 2handed longsword (and archery is of course still viable).
Ruyan.
EDIT: And ninja'd... Yeah, I also packed the longspear for reach!
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Also remember that Bard is a good start for a Dragon Disciple. A 4 level dip will not hurt your casting much at all and will give you +4 Str, an extra feat (from a decent list), +3 NA, 3 limited use Natural weapons (including a bite that does 1 1/2 Str damage that can be used alongside of using a manufactured weapon, +5 resistance to one energy type and a little breath weapon, which isn't that great if you don't go straight sorcerer, but can be fun against swarms.
I prefer combat reflexes and a reach weapon as well, because you can get some decent Attacks of Opportunity as well that way, and with a lower BAB, it will bump your # of attacks as well. Not to mention if you can get one of your caster frienemies to cast enlarge person on you, you got a range of 20'. More AoO and full attacks? Yes Please.
I like this a lot. I've considered something similar in the past. Should work well combined with the arcane duelist.
Here's (one of) the old thread(s):
sorc, bard, DD and other combinations
Ruyan.
That build in that thread of yours isn't too bad, although I would have gone with the Fauchard instead of the Guisarme. The higher damage and crit range are way better for the cost of your feat. Also, if you have Combat Reflexes, you don't need to go early in the round, at least not from level one. You still get attacks of opportunity and can 5 foot step and then full attack them for charging you.
So I would go...
1EWP: Fauchard, Combat Reflexes
3Power Attack
5Improved Trip (to get the most use of it before things fly)
7Arcane Strike, DD- Improved Initiative
9Greater trip
etc...
Also remember that Bard is a good start for a Dragon Disciple. A 4 level dip will not hurt your casting much at all and will give you +4 Str, an extra feat (from a decent list), +3 NA, 3 limited use Natural weapons (including a bite that does 1 1/2 Str damage that can be used alongside of using a manufactured weapon, +5 resistance to one energy type and a little breath weapon, which isn't that great if you don't go straight sorcerer, but can be fun against swarms.
I prefer combat reflexes and a reach weapon as well, because you can get some decent Attacks of Opportunity as well that way, and with a lower BAB, it will bump your # of attacks as well. Not to mention if you can get one of your caster frienemies to cast enlarge person on you, you got a range of 20'. More AoO and full attacks? Yes Please.
Personally I like to pick Eldritch heritage with the orc bloodline for a sort of skald like bard, it will cost you a significant number of feats but will give you :
- skill focus survival (not great I admit)
- touch of rage, ends up giving impressive bonuses even if just for 1 round
- a +6 to strength (+2 at lvl 11, 15 and 17, though wishes and tomes wont work to increase the bonus further)
- ability to grow to large size with another +6 bonus to strength and +4 natural armor, +4 con and -2 dex (lvl 17)
Technically nothing stops you from combining it with dragon disciple I think
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I want him to be Melee based with plenty of skills and support to help out the party.
So would a Sword and Boards approach or a 2Handed build work better usually?
Basic build high str, decent dex, con, cha (16 at some point) and low int and wis sound about right??
Even though I want melee build, would a compound bow be handy to have at all times with a feat or two in archery??
And finally did UC help them out much, because most of my attention was focused on Fighting Styles and Archery feats so I haven't really sat down to try and find good feats for a bard yet.
Thanks all
If you are going to fight then you need to specialize. A bard in my group is a super effective archer. He took human and has taken as many archery feats as possible it was really effective and has let him go light on armor in favor of having an awesome bow. I think that might be the best option as bards already get short bows. With Arcane strike , rapid shot, many shot (and the haste I usually cast) he puts out a ton of damage.
But since you want sword and board.
One feat that is good to take around 3 or 5 is Arcane Strike. It works for all weapons so if you are using it on your sword and then have to switch to bow you can use it to jazz up the damage on it. It scales with your level granting a bonus to damage equal to your level.
You can get the most bang for your feats with two handed weapons as power attack and that line work great and don't require a lot of feats to be good.
Human
HB)Power attack
1) Martial Weapon (your favorite 2hand wpn)
3)Arcane Strike
5)Step up
7)The one after step up
Take buffs and heals for your spells known. Use your human bonus every level to get extra spells (APG) which is great for spontaneous casters.
By 7th level you are dealing weapon damage plus STR + PWR Attack plus 2 from arcane strike. With a 2handed sword and 14 str you will have 2d6+6+2 on a power attack.
If you get on top of someone they can't get away.
edit: for my mistake with Arcane strike.
arcane strike gives you +1 damage at level 1, +2 at level 5, +3 at level 10 and so on to a maximum of +5 at level 20.
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arcane strike gives you +1 damage at level 1, +2 at level 5, +3 at level 10 and so on to a maximum of +5 at level 20.
yes, yes, that's right. I was even looking at the feat before I wrote that. Still I like it as a feat. Basically it is free damage every time you hit with any weapon. If you have other swift actions then you might not like it but usually you have one or two swift actions to choose from.
Bards don't have the BAB for power attack or MWP at level 1.
yes, yes, that's right. I was even looking at the feat before I wrote that. Still I like it as a feat. Basically it is free damage every time you hit with any weapon. If you have other swift actions then you might not like it but usually you have one or two swift actions to choose from.
Yeah, I like it too. I just wish it was a bit higher, something like +1 every 4 level (maybe even every 3).
My recommendations for a sword-n-bard (DC 10 perception check to see what I did there):
Longsword and buckler. Two-hand the longsword when you need the damage (don't forget the -1 to hit though). Use it one-handed when you need the AC. Remember that if you cast a spell, you lose the buckler's bonus to AC.
It's like...best of both worlds, with no feat investment :D
First level feats:
* Toughness (never hurts)
* Dodge
* Arcane Strike (one of the better +damage feats)
* Lingering Performance (if you don't think you'll hit higher levels, this is great. I'm not convinced that it's good at higher levels, since you have so many rounds already)
Unfortunately, they suffer from the curse of 3/4ths BAB classes at 1st level, so they can't get any of the good feats. Fortunately, due to LP and AS, they have some decent options.
Bards don't have the BAB for power attack or MWP at level 1.This is why I usually stay out of build threads. I make too many mistakes.
You had good advice otherwise!
Personally, I think it's sensible to give 3/4ths BAB martial types (so...every 3/4ths but Summoners) access to those feats at first level. For PA, a GM and I worked out a weakened version that was -1 / +1, and at level 2, it turns into the usual -1 / +2.