So I'm currently in an 8th level game, where it has become quickly apparent that my present character (a relatively optimized Magus) is WAY more powerful than the rest of the party, perhaps put togeather.
For Refrence the party is: a fallen paladin (so for now a Warrior with a few bonus skills), a very old Alchemist who does not currently have access to the spells that reduce aging penalties. a Cleric who forgets that he has spells and just tries to hit things with his Glaive (and only a 12 in STR), and a Ninja who may or may not be effective, we don't know because he sits out most combats due to having a total will save of +2. In the 2 combats so far where the Ninja could act he has only managed to roll higher than a 5 once.
I'm seriously considering taking my character out of the game and just playing my curent character's Familiar psudodragon as a character. He has been IC considered more effective than the ninja by the other players, and I kinda like the idea. Which bruings me to the question of what class to take levels in? I would go rogue, but we already have a vivisetionist and a Ninja, so that seems like it covers those bases well.
Sorcerer, draconic bloodline. Reason: so he gets his own breath weapon at 9th level, just like the other dragons!
Master Arminas
I'm playing a sorcerer in the other game I'm in. Is there any way to make a psudodragon a decent melee character? I'm toying around with an agile amulet of mighty fists, a very high dex, 2 levels of ranger (shapeshifter) to get aspect of the beast for claws, then going Fighter (Savage Warrior) the rest of the way.
With a bit of work I would bet you could make a bard/Dragon disciple into a melee that could be solid in this group. After all they are kinda a mess is sounds. On top of that you would be helping them not be so useless.
With the huge number of archetypes bard has I am sure it would not be to hard.
summoner synthesist
you can use the eidolon suit as a way to improve the psuedodragon into a fairly effective copy of a larger dragon
summoner. then you'd still probably step on everyones toes though...perhaps bard.
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I would go with Rogue over fighter/ranger. Your attacks are never going to do much damage due to small size and low Strength. But if you go finesse rogue, you can use your DEX to hit, and make up for the damage penalties somewhat with Sneak Attacks.
And if you can find some way to increase the DC of your sting, that would be even better!
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I would go with Rogue over fighter/ranger. Your attacks are never going to do much damage due to small size and low Strength. But if you go finesse rogue, you can use your DEX to hit, and make up for the damage penalties somewhat with Sneak Attacks.
And if you can find some way to increase the DC of your sting, that would be even better!
Never mind, I just reread the last sentence and saw that you don't want to play a rogue to avoid stepping on other party members' toes. Fair enough. Given that, I think Phasics' idea of Synthesist Summoner has some interesting merits. . .
A pseudodragon has quite a few things going for it, enough so it could possibly be a better choice than any of the base races.
- blindsense 60', dark vision, low-light vision
- impressive stealth due to size, dex bonus and racial modifiers
- immunity to paralysis and sleep
- SR which might increase or not depending on the GM's interpretation
- good base saves
- good base BAB
- impressive AC due to size, dex and natural armor
- immunity to some spells, due to being a dragon type
- telepathy
- flight 60'
- pretty decent skill points and class skills
It is tiny and obviously not well suited for some classes, but it has a decent reach on it's tail and another natural attack, so it can still threaten, it also has decent ability modifiers a little better than standard races, poison is a small boon but shouldnt have much impact.
Altogether an awesome familiar, if you want to downgrade your character I do not advise to make it a primary spellcaster, a sorcerer/rogue or ninja going arcane trickster seems most appropriate
I think a witch will be interesting with some hexes to support the party and debuff your enemies.
I'm toying around with an agile amulet of mighty fists, a very high dex, 2 levels of ranger (shapeshifter) to get aspect of the beast for claws, then going Fighter (Savage Warrior) the rest of the way.
This could work pretty well actually. Off the top of my head: Starting out with a dex of 22 (18+4 racial), increase to 24 at levels 4 and 8, and add a belt of dexterity +2 for 26, then gobble a Cat's grace potion at the start of combat for a total of 30.
That's +10 to hit (finesse feat), +10 damage (agile amulet of mighty fists) and +10 AC.
Combine with power attack (will require 13 str, but should be worth it for a full bab character) and you will have +14 damage at CL 8. Add the +2 from specialization and +1 from the amulet and we get a descent +17.
So it could potentially end up with +18/+18/+18/+18 (claw, claw, bite and sting), for d2+17/d2+17/d2+17 and d3+17. With an AC of somewhere between 22 (dex+size) and 26 (dex+size+mage armor).
All in all I'll say that it's viable :)
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Try as a Summoner. Give your Eidolon all the magic evolutions and play as a wizard and her familiar. ;)
Hi! I'm Tik-Tik, pseudodragon alchemist and chef! I have to say, diving toward the enemy and flicking a bomb at it while making the diving airplane noise is quite fun! If you want to strafe your enemy, there is a nice discovery called "Breath Weapon Bomb" in Ultimate Combat.
Now, to discuss class options from above.
Summoner: Having once gone the route of Wizard & Familiar, this can work. Keep your Eidolon's face hidden and make people think your telepathy is really your 'master' talking.
Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple: Sadly, you cannot become a Dragon Disciple if you have the Dragon type. :(
Bard: This is a great choice for our kind! The biggest reason is the fact that, since we are telepathic, we can use Oratory, Sing, and Comedy without anyone but the party "hearing" the performance! If you go Court Bard, I suggest learning a highly annoying song that you can put directly into your foes head!
Melee Classes: Fighter can be an interesting choice, especially if you can get your GM to say dragons have thumbs. I'd suggest going the archery or crossbowmen/dragon route if you go with fighter. Now, for barbarians, Lunge and the Beast Totem rage powers can make you a vicious little combatant. Go Urban Barbarian if you'd like to focus on being tougher, stronger, or faster than normal.
Ranger can let you stalk your prey, and possibly even drive them insane as they start 'hearing voices' in their heads. The bonuses from Favored Enemy help get around our size challenged damage dice.
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Psion. :-)
Hmm, A Pseudodragon Cavalier would be interesting, especially if you took the hound master archtype.
Pseudodragon ninja. :-)
Pseudodragon monk? Can you do your monk damage with your tail?
Ranger? With an animal companion. "I am Crouching Tiger/Hidden Dragon!"
Pseudodragon ninja. :-)
Pseudodragon monk? Can you do your monk damage with your tail?
Ranger? With an animal companion. "I am Crouching Tiger/Hidden Dragon!"
I heavily support all of these ideas.
Yes, you can use your tail for flurry, since you and use any part of your body to make an Unarmed Strike as a monk. You just won't get to poison things because you need to sting them instead of whacking them upsides the head four or five times. Enjoy being a little whirlwind of fury if you go with monk!
This could work pretty well actually. Off the top of my head: Starting out with a dex of 22 (18+4 racial), increase to 24 at levels 4 and 8, and add a belt of dexterity +2 for 26, then gobble a Cat's grace potion at the start of combat for a total of 30.That's +10 to hit (finesse feat), +10 damage (agile amulet of mighty fists) and +10 AC.
Combine with power attack (will require 13 str, but should be worth it for a full bab character) and you will have +14 damage at CL 8. Add the +2 from specialization and +1 from the amulet and we get a descent +17.
So it could potentially end up with +18/+18/+18/+18 (claw, claw, bite and sting), for d2+17/d2+17/d2+17 and d3+17. With an AC of somewhere between 22 (dex+size) and 26 (dex+size+mage armor).
All in all I'll say that it's viable :)
Yeah, I'm not going to put that much in DEX (as the whole point of this is to NOT play something that would out damage the rest of the party, I'm thinking of sticking to around dex 20 (after items), mostly to deliberately power myself down. That being said Pirahna attack eliminates the need for STR 13! Right now I'm looking at +18/18/18/18 for 1d2+6/1d2+6/1d2+6/1d3+6, with the option of -3 attack +6 damage fro PS.
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This could work pretty well actually. Off the top of my head: Starting out with a dex of 22 (18+4 racial), increase to 24 at levels 4 and 8, and add a belt of dexterity +2 for 26, then gobble a Cat's grace potion at the start of combat for a total of 30.
Have to point out that Belt of Dex and Cat's Grace are the same bonus so they don't stack. Yout total with the potion would only be 28. Otherwise your concept is amusing and well done.
Try as a Summoner. Give your Eidolon all the magic evolutions and play as a wizard and her familiar. ;)
I like his idea. it's amusing and non-optimized, which is what you're looking for.
Rogue.
Nah, I'm shittin' ya.
Play a Bard. Make everyone else more awesome, so they are effective in combat :)
bard is a good choice lots of fancy archetypes to give it some flavor you want.
summoner. then you'd still probably step on everyones toes though...perhaps bard.
I'm seconding the bard -- for one not only will you be awesome but you can make everyone else awesome too.
Unfortunately, for bard or any other caster, a pseudo-dragon can't talk--it has telepathy, but that is not the same for spell-casting or bardic perfomances, right? He can take Perform (Dance) or (Comedy) to overcome part of that, but he can't cast any spells (I think).
How about a Psion? Or, if your DM allows it, a Soulknife who forms his mindblade as an extension of your Stinger?
Master Arminas
For ideas and thoughts on bards, check out this (multi)post, and the post below it.
Arminas: They can speak Draconic, so they have the capacity for speech. Throw a rank into Linguistics to pick up Common, I guess. Language-dependent effects wouldn't work without that rank, but they could cast spells. Good point though.
For ideas and thoughts on bards, check out this (multi)post, and the post below it.
Arminas: They can speak Draconic, so they have the capacity for speech. Throw a rank into Linguistics to pick up Common, I guess. Language-dependent effects wouldn't work without that rank, but they could cast spells. Good point though.
My question would be how does the telepathy ability play into that?
Telepathy is not dependent on language. Two creatures without a common language, but with telepathy, could communicate normally.
Master Arminas
Telepathy is not dependent on language. Two creatures without a common language, but with telepathy, could communicate normally.
Master Arminas
You misunderstand, but that's because I didn't explain well.
What I mean is how telepathy interacts with language dependent spells.
Language-Dependent: A language-dependent spell uses intelligible language as a medium for communication. If the target cannot understand or hear what the caster of a language-dependent spell says, the spell has no effect, even if the target fails its saving throw.
The creature can mentally communicate with any other creature within a certain range (specified in the creature’s entry, usually 100 feet) that has a language. It is possible to address multiple creatures at once telepathically, although maintaining a telepathic conversation with more than one creature at a time is just as difficult as simultaneously speaking and listening to multiple people at the same timeFormat: telepathy 100 ft.; Location: Languages.
As you can see telepathy is an universal language (out to its range) as such it should (inside its range) preclude the need to have a matching language at all.
Ye take the high road, and I'll take the low road, but we both arrive at the same point! lol
Master Arminas
I'll take the middle road.
If you read Tik-Tiks link (my ipod cant copy and past for some reason...) you would see you are both wrong. A pseudodragon charecter can speak common and dragon, and his telepathy only works with lang. he can speak.
I win.
;-)
Ps. And i like the soul blade idea the best
I'll take the middle road.
If you read Tik-Tiks link (my ipod cant copy and past for some reason...) you would see you are both wrong. A pseudodragon charecter can speak common and dragon, and his telepathy only works with lang. he can speak.
I win.
;-)Ps. And i like the soul blade idea the best
Honestly no I am not.
I never claimed the psuedodragon can't talk, or speak.
And you are wrong about the psuedodragon's telepathy.
Nothing about it states it only works with languages the psuedodragon knows, what's more nothing has been posted to prove my interpretation of how telepathy and language dependent effects work together.
That's why I check the actual rules instead of character sheets.
I'll take the middle road.
If you read Tik-Tiks link (my ipod cant copy and past for some reason...) you would see you are both wrong. A pseudodragon charecter can speak common and dragon, and his telepathy only works with lang. he can speak.
I win.
;-)Ps. And i like the soul blade idea the best
Can I ask what the breakdown of the Pseudodragon race is? What are it's stats and RP total for the Race book?
I'll take the middle road.
If you read Tik-Tiks link (my ipod cant copy and past for some reason...) you would see you are both wrong. A pseudodragon charecter can speak common and dragon, and his telepathy only works with lang. he can speak.
I win.
;-)Ps. And i like the soul blade idea the best
Can I ask what the breakdown of the Pseudodragon race is? What are it's stats and RP total for the Race book?
They're just using the Pseudodragon as found in the Bestiary. With class levels.
It was not built with the Race playtest.
Dang...
I thought i had you Abraham.
(im in the mindset of "fun and games"...)
Dang...
I thought i had you Abraham.
(im in the mindset of "fun and games"...)
No biggie -- the big thing is that there is an answer to 'can it work' and that answer is yes (to the idea of a psuedodragon bard).
So I'm currently in an 8th level game, where it has become quickly apparent that my present character (a relatively optimized Magus) is WAY more powerful than the rest of the party, perhaps put togeather.
For Refrence the party is: a fallen paladin (so for now a Warrior with a few bonus skills), a very old Alchemist who does not currently have access to the spells that reduce aging penalties. a Cleric who forgets that he has spells and just tries to hit things with his Glaive (and only a 12 in STR), and a Ninja who may or may not be effective, we don't know because he sits out most combats due to having a total will save of +2. In the 2 combats so far where the Ninja could act he has only managed to roll higher than a 5 once.
I'm seriously considering taking my character out of the game and just playing my curent character's Familiar psudodragon as a character. He has been IC considered more effective than the ninja by the other players, and I kinda like the idea. Which bruings me to the question of what class to take levels in? I would go rogue, but we already have a vivisetionist and a Ninja, so that seems like it covers those bases well.
Direct the cleric towards the paladin. Direct the ninja towards a bard or perhaps the feat iron will and maybe the racial trait dual minded. The vivectionist should be stomping your character even if he has aging penalties.
Is no one going to mention the pseudodragon only feat which treats their melee attack as either holy or silver and allows them to apply their dexterity to damage?
You'll have to search for it, but James wrote it up in a Pathfinder blog post somewhere, i.e., Dervish Dance of Pseudodragons.
So, let's say pure fighter, weapon group "natural" and "savage warrior" and "Lore Warden" archtypes.
1)Toughness 3) vaguely referenced pseudodragon feat, 5)Under & Over , 7)Flyby Attack
1)Weapon Finesse 2)Piranha Strike (B) Combat Expertise, 4)Agile Maneuvers 6)Improved Trip
If someone tried to grab your character, your trip attempt would be as follows: d20 + BAB + Dex (Finesse) + Dex (Agile Maneuvers) + 2 (Improved Trip) +2 (Agile Maneuver). So, maybe a 30 to trip.
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Ive just read the above link, ive never seen the picture but i can see it in my head and it is awesome!!!!
Out of cirouosity, yes im a horable speller, how would a pseudodragon shrink itself? A gnome would cast reduce person. But a pseudodradon?
Being diminuitive has advantages.
The feat, from over 3.5 years ago, TheDoctor is talking about.
That Link was amazingly helpful, thanks.
I'm currently looking at either Ranger or Ranger2/Bard 6 and then just leveling up Bard. I don't suppose anybody knows of a way other than a 2 level dip to get claws? (ranger natural combat style for aspect of the beast, or Barbarian work, but I'd prefer to go straight bard if I could get the claw attacks another way).
The feat, from over 3.5 years ago, TheDoctor is talking about.That Link was amazingly helpful, thanks.
I'm currently looking at either Ranger or Ranger2/Bard 6 and then just leveling up Bard. I don't suppose anybody knows of a way other than a 2 level dip to get claws? (ranger natural combat style for aspect of the beast, or Barbarian work, but I'd prefer to go straight bard if I could get the claw attacks another way).
There is Eldritch heritage for draconic bloodline. The claws are temporary, 3 rounds + charisma modifier per day, something that is always ignored in my campaigns though, only using the rounds per day limit for the energy damage.
Remember you are still tiny so you actually have to enter an opponenets square to attack with anything but your stinger and thus provoking attacks of oppurtunity in many cases.
The feat, from over 3.5 years ago, TheDoctor is talking about.That Link was amazingly helpful, thanks.
I'm currently looking at either Ranger or Ranger2/Bard 6 and then just leveling up Bard. I don't suppose anybody knows of a way other than a 2 level dip to get claws? (ranger natural combat style for aspect of the beast, or Barbarian work, but I'd prefer to go straight bard if I could get the claw attacks another way).There is Eldritch heritage for draconic bloodline. The claws are temporary, 3 rounds + charisma modifier per day, something that is always ignored in my campaigns though, only using the rounds per day limit for the energy damage.
Remember you are still tiny so you actually have to enter an opponenets square to attack with anything but your stinger and thus provoking attacks of oppurtunity in many cases.
Yeah, I thought of that, so went for lunge, it negates the size bonus to AC, but allows me to attack from the next square with bite/claws (tail already has a reach of 5')
What I am currently working with:
Party is level 8, so trade a 1 CR monster base for 1 level
2 HD of Dragon
2 Levels of Ranger
5 Levels of Bard
Feats:
1) Weapon Finesse
3) Impslayer
5) Pirahna Strike
7) Lunge
9) Craft Wonderous (so that the party still has access to reduced cost items)
Ranger Bonus feat at Ranger 2: Aspect of the Beast (Claws)
Stats: (After ability increase for levels and racial)
Str: 8
Dex: 18 (22 with belt)
Con: 16
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Cha: 14 (16 with HB)
This ends with a BAB of +7 (3 from Bard, 2 from ranger, 2 from HD)
a fair number of HP,
and attacks at 16/16/16/16 for 1d2+7/1d2+7/1d2+7/1d2+7
Pirahna striking as needed.
Not to mention the bardic music and spells, although frankly I don't really care about the spellcasting, In combat I'll be attacking physically with natural weapons, so don't really need any combat spells, maybe haste and such at higher levels. I don't suppose there is a bard archetype that give up spellcasting? I do want to be able to help the rest of the party with Bardic Music (or Hunter's bond if I end up going straight Ranger), but Bard spells really don't interest me much, they don't have most of the utility spells I would Normally grap for this sort of character.
All in all I think the build works well, but not too well (The real reason I stopped playing around with the ranger 2 / Fighter X build) so as to recreate the problem I'm trying to fix.
I cant think of anything eles.
But keep posting, i would like to hear how it works for you.