I'd like to create an archaeologist bard that can fill the role of the rogue, face, knowledge and archer, and can help with healing (with wands, I expect).
I'm having the most trouble anticipating the needs of the character at higher levels, since I have little experience with higher level play.
I'm thinking of Archaeologist 8/Arcane Archer 10, but one question is: is the Arcane Archer even worth it at levels 9-18?
As for attributes, I'm assuming a 20 point-buy, and am considering an elf or half-elf.
Str: 10 or 14 (how well does +2 damage/attack scale? worth reducing dex for it?)
Dex: 16 to 18 (16 or 17 if str or con is worth it)
Con: 10, 12, or 14 (how much HP do I need considering I'd be an archer? Fort would be nice, too, though)
Int: 14 (I want enough skill points, and will probably also take +1 skill point/level favored class)
Wis: 10 (don't want to role-play any lower than this)
Cha: 12 (and increase to 16 by level 7 with a +4 magic item. Reasonable expectation or would 13 be better with a +2 item and a level up at level 12?)
Another question is spells... should I avoid picking spells that require a save (like blindness/deafness) if I'm not counting on having a high charisma? Or is it a mistake to neglect offensive casting? Should I try to max/increase my charisma to improve offensive casting capability?
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Unless you're starting at level 18, go human. Archery is ridiculously feat intensive, and you won't be able to pick up precise shot until level 3 otherwise.
I would recommend skipping arcane archer entirely. The boosts and better spells you'll get from being a bard will make up for 3/4 BAB. I would recommend not going with 14 intellect. Yes, you'll have a ton of skill points, but I really don't think it's necessary, especially for a bard.
The one thing I'd be worried about for an archaeologist is that your performance is always limited. With a 12 charisma you have 5 rounds per day, and that number doesn't increase.
I would go with
Str 12 (+1), Dex 17 (+3), Con 12 (+1), Int 12 (+1), Wis 10 (+0), Cha 15 (+2)
increasing dexterity at level 4 and charisma at level 8. It's more efficient with your point buy and means that you'll have some extra performance. The feat progression I would go with is
1 Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2
3 Rapid Shot
4 Dexterity +1
5 Extra Performance
6
7 Weapon Focus
8 Charisma +1
9 Manyshot
As for skills, you still get 8/level, and the archaeologist doesn't lose bardic knowledge, so you can usually get away with putting fewer points into the knowledge skills for similar output compared with other characters.
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The one thing I'd be worried about for an archaeologist is that your performance is always limited. With a 12 charisma you have 5 rounds per day, and that number doesn't increase.Extra performance/lingering performance/half-elf bard's alternate racial favored class bonus.
Be that as it may, archaeologist's luck is still a much more finite resource than bardic performance.
I do recall seeing that the designer later on said that it should've been +1 per level, or something like that.
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Unless you're starting at level 18, go human. Archery is ridiculously feat intensive...
It's only feat-intensive if you squeeze the bleeding edge of DPR.
First things: the guy is making a bard, and thinking about archery; this implies that INT, DEX and CHA will be important. CON is always important. WIS is maybe important (and more important if you're human). So, what's the dump stat? Give that man a cee-gar if he guesses "strength". ...which then means: crap damage with composite longbows.
The best bang-for-the-buck archery feat for a bard is Rapid Reload (taken when Haste is in-the-bag). Crossbows are better than longbows for bards because the extended threat-range dovetails with bardsong numeric damage bonuses (which multiply on crits).
Tactics: if it's a long ways away, shoot it. If it's closer, use your magic to screw with its head. If it's adjacent to you...well it's a good thing you don't roast all your feats on archery. Why, you'd even have room for Weapon Finesse and Piranha Strike, so when you lash something with your Agile scorpion whip, the whole arena cringes when you strip meat right off the bone.
Greetings, fellow travellers.
With the roles you want to fill I see the archeologist archetype as a possible way to go - but at the same time it limits you in the staples the bard is nowadays known for.
Importance of attributes would be (descending importance):
DEX (save, initiative, AC, skills), CHA (bonus spells, DC for spells, skills for being party face), CON (hp, save, hp, hp, hp), WIS (save, skills), INT, STR
Bards do not have access to the composite version of bows, only normal ones, so STR should not be an issue.
This changes if you take elf as race which opens up the possibility of taking the composite bow...
Piercing DR with a bow might become problematic later on esp. with lower STR bonus, and Deadly Aim with a 3/4 BAB class is rather sub-optimal as well.
Small buffer concerning hp and skill points with favored class bonus is possible, but you can never have enough hp...
I'd go straight bard (vanilla that is). I don't see the AA as really viable, the bard has a lot of things going for himself, especially when it comes to perform aka buffing the whole group with e. g. inspire courage (but don't let yourself be reduced to being this kind of one trick pony!).
Sure, you will lose the ability to disable magical traps, which I do not see as problematic but then again, I as GM and/or player do not use/get much traps in my gameplay.
Healing, you say. Hm. I do not see it being viable in combat as a bard. The CLW wand is dead cheap, but the other versions maybe not (no experience there, sorry). Another thing why you want to consider going straight bard with having healing in mind is the Soothing Performance performance, which let's you heal each member of your group out of combat for 3d8+12.
Otherwise, I agree what Mike wrote.
Ruyan.
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Bards have access to composite shortbows. I would say stat priority depends on what you want out of your character. For a buffer who occasionally shoots (although you should go with core bard in this case):
Dex = Cha > Con = Str > Int > Wis
For an archer however, and bards can do a lot of damage this way, I would up the dexterity and not worry so much about high intellect or wisdom. A medium charisma is necessary to keep up the luck, although extra performance will help there when there's room for it. There is also no reason to not grab 12 strength, which is an extra +1 damage per arrow once the composite shortbow is picked up.
Martial Weapon Proficiency Longbow is a Feat worth taking. Also with Lingering Performance you can effectively triple your Performance rounds
by expending a swift action every three rounds(a very good deal),switch on Luck for one round then switch it of and enyo it for two free extra rounds.This makes Extra Performance also better as it turns the 6 extra rounds you get into 18.
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Martial Weapon Proficiency Longbow is a Feat worth taking. Also with Lingering Performance you can effectively triple your Performance rounds
by expending a swift action every three rounds(a very good deal),switch on Luck for one round then switch it of and enyo it for two free extra rounds.This makes Extra Performance also better as it turns the 6 extra rounds you get into 18.
Shortbow is fine. Martial weapon proficiency gives an extra +1 damage per arrow, which does not compare with any of the other needed feats.
Shortbow is fine. Martial weapon proficiency gives an extra +1 damage per arrow, which does not compare with any of the other needed feats.Martial Weapon Proficiency Longbow is a Feat worth taking. Also with Lingering Performance you can effectively triple your Performance rounds
by expending a swift action every three rounds(a very good deal),switch on Luck for one round then switch it of and enyo it for two free extra rounds.This makes Extra Performance also better as it turns the 6 extra rounds you get into 18.
Well,true maybe.
But if he has a Feat slot to throw in Weapon Focus he Might as wellget Longbow Proficiency for +1dmg and +30feet range.
Instead of Weapon Focus or Longbow Proficiency you could also take Extend Spell take Magical Lineage either Haste or Good Hope (although Haste gives you Probably more mileage as Good Hope is 1min/perLevel already)should help whith your buffing.By the way Good Hope and Archeologist Luck stack Morale Bonus/Luck Bonus thats +4 to EVERYTHING,pure Bonus Love
Sorry to derail, but I am under the impression that bards only have access to the shortbow, as per d20PFSRD:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A bard is proficient with all simple weapons, plus the longsword, rapier, sap, short sword, shortbow, and whip.
Emphasis mine - or does this imply, that composite variant is included?
Ruyan.
Sorry to derail, but I am under the impression that bards only have access to the shortbow, as per d20PFSRD:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A bard is proficient with all simple weapons, plus the longsword, rapier, sap, short sword, shortbow, and whip.Emphasis mine - or does this imply, that composite variant is included?
Ruyan.
Composite shortbows are shortbows. So yes, it means they are proficient with both.
Shortbow is fine. Martial weapon proficiency gives an extra +1 damage per arrow, which does not compare with any of the other needed feats.Martial Weapon Proficiency Longbow is a Feat worth taking. Also with Lingering Performance you can effectively triple your Performance rounds
by expending a swift action every three rounds(a very good deal),switch on Luck for one round then switch it of and enyo it for two free extra rounds.This makes Extra Performance also better as it turns the 6 extra rounds you get into 18.Well,true maybe.
But if he has a Feat slot to throw in Weapon Focus he Might as well
get Longbow Proficiency for +1dmg and +30feet range.
That +1 to hit will help out a lot more than +1 damage. +1 damage when you do hit, or +5% chance to do any damage at all. Arcane Strike will add more damage than a longbow would.
Just use a shortbow. Unless you're an elf. Then use a longbow.
Thanks all for the input. I'm looking forward to more. I'll try to clarify some of my original thinking.
I'd love to use a human, but I did like the idea of an elf or half-elf for the low-light vision. I've always been apprehensive about sneaky types who couldn't see in the dark. (Not that I haven't created them, but I do feel guilty. :) And I know James Jacobs said so, but I don't think it's ever been officially errata'd that Arcane Archer isn't race-dependent, so I wanted my build to be GM-independent.
I've never liked the flavor of the performance bard, so I wouldn't play a traditional bard. I was really looking at the Archaeologist as more like a rogue with spells rather than a bard without music.
I'm familiar with the informal build guidelines of never losing caster levels, but which 5th level and 6th level spells would you take? I'd read Treantmonk's guide to bards, and it didn't look like he valued very many of the 5th or 6th level spells, and I thought they looked somewhat underwhelming, as well.
My shortlist of ones that looked useful to me were:
5-level
Mass suggestion (will, sr yes)
Dispel Magic, greater
Bard's Escape
Shadow Walk
Cure Light wounds, Mass
6-level
Geas/Quest (will, sr yes)
Irresistible Dance (will, sr yes)
Greater Shout (fortitude, sr yes object)
Summon Monster VI
Heroes' Feast
Brilliant Inspiration
Analyze Dweomer
I would assume you are playing an half elf or elf as it is a pereq for arcane archer,but anyway i disagree that weapon focus will make any difference at level 7 when heroism or good hope and Arch Luck are giving him +4 to hit
before weapon bonuses.
Heh.
The errata for the Core Rulebook was released yesterday.
Here's a line from it:
Page 374—In the Arcane Archer requirements
section, delete the line “Race: Elf or half-elf.”
It was a pointless restriction anyway
I am playing this EXACT SAME concept (archaeologist/archer) at 6th level. I considered half-elf, but really needed the extra feat from human to barely meet the archery feats. The extra skill points aren't bad either. They can also choose extra spells known as an alternative class feature.
I thought about Arcane Archer, but deviating from the main class takes away some potentially cool stuff that the Arcane Archer doesn't really make up for. Just take Arcane Strike and you'll feel enough like one of them.
My DM let me ditch the Perform skill (since they don't need it at all), and trade it for Disable Devicle (which they should get as a class skill anyway). He also let me choose to add some Ranger spells to my list in place of the more musical-themed Bard spells. If your DM will let you do the same, choose Gravity Bow or any other archery-themed spells.
We roll 4d4 and drop the lowest, or use the NPC heroic stats; whichever is better. I used the NPC heroic stats, and at 6th level ended up with Str 14, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 8, and Cha 14. It's about what Treantmonk recommends to start with for an archer Bard anyway. The save DCs for spells are low, but I stick with healing, buffing, and out-of-battle spells (like detect magic, identify, locate object, etc.). With a +2 composite shortbow, Arcane Strike, and Archaeologist's Luck, you can make up a little bit of the damage for not being a dedicated Fighter/Ranger archer. You just have to keep track of your swift actions.
As a human, my feats are Point-Blank Shot (human), Precise Shot (1st), Deadly Aim (3rd), Weapon Focus: shortbow (Rogue talent 4th), and Arcane Srike (5th). I'm going to take Rapid Shot at 7th level. At first I couldn't decide between Deadly Aim and Rapid Shot, but I thought I'd focus on doing more damage with one arrow before I start firing off more per round. Either way, Archaeologist's Luck makes up for the penalty.
Speaking of that, it doesn't last very long. Even if you only have one encounter per session, it's dreadfully short-lived. Until they errata the luck ability (if they do), I would recommend taking Extra Performance and Lingering performance at some point. When to do it is up to you, but you'll have to delay your archer feat progression. I hope this helps you! =)
Treantmonk's guide is fairly out of date. Just keep that in mind.
Sleet Storm: I made an alchemist, another 3/4ths BAB class, whose damage per round doubled just because they were flanking. +2 to to hit increased their damage by 100%. You are selling bonuses to-hit far too short, and I urge you to do the math.
Well, I'll do a contrived example for everyone. Against CR 10 creatures, at level 10.
+7 to hit from BAB. +5 from haste / good hope / inspire courage. +1 from weapon enhancement. +6 from Dex. Total to hit: +19. With WF, that's +20.
We are trying to hit an AC of 24. That's the average CR 10 critter's AC.
We're looking at bonus damage of...+4 (deadly aim) +1 (enhancement) +4 (goodhope / inspire courage) +2 (strength) +3 (arcane strike) +14 ish?
Using the formula from the DPR olympics.
shortbow with deadly aim, rapid shot, many shot
.65(35)(1+(.05)*2) many shot 25.025
.65(17.5)*1.1 rapid shot 12.5125
.65(17.5)*1.1 haste 12.5125
.4(17.5)*1.1 (iterative) 7.7
So...about 57.75. That deadly aim really hurts.
Longbow:
.6(37)(1.1) 24.42
.6(18.5)(1.1) 12.21
.6(18.5)(1.1) 12.21
.35(18.5)(1.1) 7.1225
So...about 55.9625. Turns out that +2 to hit gives an extra point of damage per round over the longbow.
Now without deadly aim:
shortbow without deadly aim
.75(27)(1.1) many shot 22.275
.75(13.5)*1.1 rapid shot 11.1375
.75(13.5)*1.1 haste 11.1375
.5(13.5)*1.1 (iterative) 7.425
So...about 51.975.
Longbow:
.7(29)(1.1) 22.33
.7(14.5)(1.1) 11.165
.7(14.5)(1.1) 11.165
.45(14.5)(1.1) 7.1775
About 51.8375.
Either way you slice it, Weapon Focus is coming out ahead.
Well Good Sir I guess i stand corrected even if its only 1 measly point of damage.
( BTW Cheapy Inspire Courage and Good Hope Don´t stack)
Well Good Sir I guess i stand corrected even if its only 1 measly point of damage.
( BTW Cheapy Inspire Courage and Good Hope Don´t stack)
Since when did competence and morale bonuses not stack? :-)
The PF bard is nothing like the 3.5 bard.
Note that the example assumes normal bard, not Archaeologist.
Well Good Sir I guess i stand corrected even if its only 1 measly point of damage.
( BTW Cheapy Inspire Courage and Good Hope Don´t stack)Since when did competence and morale bonuses not stack? :-)
The PF bard is nothing like the 3.5 bard.
Note that the example assumes normal bard, not Archaeologist.
Huh,....caught me again always thought the regular Bard is handing out morale Bonuses.
Treantmonk's guide may be out of date, but it is still relevant as a starting point for building an archer Bard. I used it for my own Archaeologist, made the appropriate changes, and I'm doing quite well with it. My damage is even fairly decent [6th level: +13 to hit, 1d8+12 with all of my buffs]. It's not optimized, but you can't really do that with a Bard anyway.
As far as the other things mentioned in the OP... You can be the face, healer, buffer, knowledge expert, and the trap disabler with ease. The Archaeologist can do a lot of things and do them well. I don't see how you would have to do anything too differently at higher levels than at lower levels. If you stay the same class, and upgrade your skills and spells appropriately, there is no need to greatly deviate from your starting point. Also, thinking of the Archaeologist as a spellcasting Rogue instead of a non-musical Bard is the right mindset. Now if their luck ability was improved just a bit, they would be the best thing ever. =)
Thanks all for the input. submit2me, your experience is encouraging. It seems like such a fun role to play, even if I don't min/max it perfectly. The DPR discussion also helped. I've taken away that I really probably either need to focus on being an archer or being a spellcaster, and I'm leaning towards archery. I might even do my original idea of Urban Ranger3/Archaeologist4/ArcaneArcher10.
Thanks again for the ideas,
Jamie