Fame, Item Purchases and Double Weapons

[Skerek]

I was thinking about stating up a ranger who would use a double weapon, but then it occurred to me, people who use double weapons (and those who use spiked shields) are at a huge disadvantage with how gold is spent in PFS.

A +1/+1 weapon, lets just say the Gnome hooked-hammer, will cost 20+2*(300+2000)= 4620, but this isn't really a problem, as +1 weapons are always available. A +2/+2 on the other hand is going to cost 20+2*(300+8000) = 16620, which requires 36 fame which you'll get at 7th level if you get 2 Fame/PP with every mod you play. Compared to something similar, 2 +2 short swords costing 8310 each for a total of 16620, but able to be bought with 27 Fame, which can be gotten at least 5, with one mod to go before you're 6th. So if you go two weapons over the double weapon, you're likely to get your equipment at least a level earlier, but most likely there'll be a large gap as you're not going to get full fame/pp every mod.

Does anyone think it'd be a good idea to allow double weapons to have each end of the weapon considered a separate weapon for the purposes of fame and purchasing items? so a +2/+2 Gnome hooked-hammer would be able to be purchased with 27 fame since for the purpose of the fame and item purchases table each head would cost 8320

[Raymond Lambert]

I understand your talking about organised play rules and the total value since it is one item. For this reason I hope it does get special consideration.

I wanted to add, aside fromt the society rule about total value of item purchases, I think it is already counted as seperate items. Nothing requires you to upgrade both sides at the same rate. You could have a +10 total bonus on one side while still leaving the other at a simple masterwork side. I for example bought a meteor hammer with one side being cold iron and the other side steel. Later I enchanted the steel side and laced it with silver. I suspect the only concurrent purchase would be the masterwork quality on each head whem it is crafted. I have to check my paperwork to make sure I remembered to pay the double MW cost.

[Nickademus42]

Core Rulebook page 551 wrote:

Creating magic double-headed weapons is treated as creating two weapons when determining cost, time, XP, and special abilities.

It doesn't say that each end is treated as a separate weapon, merely that each end adds to the cost (since time and XP are irrelevant in PFS). I don't see anywhere in the RAW where you can enchant only one end so I'm assuming you must enchant the entire weapon each time (still treating each end separate for cost).

It would be nice, though, if a double weapon only counted half it's cost towards the Fame spending limit.

[Lou Diamond]

I have always found the concept of doubble weapons and how you craft them and use them to be broken. It is something that needs to be fixed
Pathfinder brought over somthing that was broken in 3.5 and did not fix it. for instance a dwarven battle staff that has a mace head on one end and an ax head on the other end should be considered on weapon abel to deal two types of damage. One attack with end of users choice until user gets irtive attacks then he can alternate attacks with either end.

as far as enchanting the weapon pay for the bouns for the whole weapon
and other enchanments for either end of the weapon.

This would fix the doubble weapon problem

[Scribbling Rambler]

Skerek, while I understand your concern, I think you may be better off bringing this discussion to the main rules boards. While the Fame limits add a new wrinkle into the situation, the root of your problem is the gp value of enchanted double weapons - not something the Society rules are likely to make an exception for. I'm not shooting down your opinion, just saying it is unlikely to get resolved in PFS.

Nickademus, I'm pretty sure I have seen a double weapon with only one end enchanted in an official Paizo PFRPG product. Just trying to remember where.
EDIT: Found it. Tho it may not be the best example, as it goes against something else in the CRB.
Council of Thieves: there is a +1 mithral quarterstaff with rubies for eyes

Spoiler:

from Mantrithor Thrax

, valued at 4100 gp: 2000 gp of mithral (4 lbs) + 2000 gp enchantment + 100 for the rubies. If the intent is for both ends to be enchanted, it should be worth another 2000 gp.

In any case, it's probably worth asking about in the Rules Forum, to get clarification.

[hogarth]

K Neil Shackleton wrote:

Skerek, while I understand your concern, I think you may be better off bringing this discussion to the main rules boards. While the Fame limits add a new wrinkle into the situation, the root of your problem is the gp value of enchanted double weapons - not something the Society rules are likely to make an exception for. I'm not shooting down your opinion, just saying it is unlikely to get resolved in PFS.

No, it really is a PFS-specific issue -- two magic longswords cost much less fame than a magic two-bladed sword even though they cost the same amount of gold.

You could easily work around it by saying each head counts as a separate item for fame purposes (not just for gold purposes).

[Steel_Wind]

hogarth wrote:

No, it really is a PFS-specific issue -- two magic longswords cost much less fame than a magic two-bladed sword even though they cost the same amount of gold.

You could easily work around it by saying each head counts as a separate item for fame purposes (not just for gold purposes).

Agreed on both counts. It's a fame issue, not a gold issue.

[Don Walker]

The ability to enchant only one head (end) of a double weapon may be a legacy from 3.5 rules. I've always thought one could.

[Herald]

Marking the thread for a review. I think that this might merit special consderation.

[Nickademus42]

Just saw this. Not sure if it has any bearing on the topic or not.

Core Rulebook cold iron material, page 154 wrote:

...A double weapon with one cold iron half costs 50% more than normal.

[Scribbling Rambler]

hogarth wrote:

No, it really is a PFS-specific issue -- two magic longswords cost much less fame than a magic two-bladed sword even though they cost the same amount of gold.

You could easily work around it by saying each head counts as a separate item for fame purposes (not just for gold purposes).

Fair enough. I should have read the OP more carefully.

[Dennis Baker]

Neil just really likes saying "This is not a PFS issue."

FWIW, I'm not sure it's spelled out explicitly that you can enhance a double weapon one end at a time, but I'm pretty sure that is the intent and it's not directly contradicted in the rules. Plus there are examples, of things like quarterstaves that have enhancement on one end.

You are still a bit screwed due to prestige requirements, but it could be worse, you could rely on natural weapons and have to deal with Amulet of Mighty far behind the sword guy.

[Quintin DeLur]

I don’t want to bog down the 4.2 change thread with this, so I am posting here. There is a problem with Fame purchases when it comes to double weapons. Fame gives an advantage to characters dual wielding two weapons instead of using a double weapon. I would like to see double weapons valued for Fame purchases by each half of the weapon instead of as a single item.

I’m just showing a comparison of Fame/minimum character level required for access to the purchase. I don’t know if characters could reasonably afford these items at the levels they gain access to them.

Here is a standard longsword
+1 2,315gp Always Available
+2 8,315gp 27 Fame (lvl 5 2/3)
+3 18,315gp 36 Fame (lvl 7)
+4 32,315gp 45 Fame (lvl 8 2/3)
+5 50,315gp 49 Fame (lvl 9 1/3)

Here is a two bladed sword
+1/+1 4,700gp Always Available
+2/+1 10,700gp 27 Fame (lvl 5 2/3)
+2/+2 16,700gp 36 Fame (lvl 7)
+3/+2 26,700gp 40 Fame (lvl 7 2/3)
+3/+3 36,700gp 45 Fame (lvl 8 2/3)
+4/+3 50,700gp 49 Fame (lvl 9 1/3)
+4/+4 64,700gp 54 Fame (lvl 10)
+5/+4 82,700gp 58 Fame (lvl 10 2/3)
+5/+5 100,700gp 63 Fame (lvl 11 2/3)

Starting with the +2 bracket, there is at least a 1-2 level difference of when someone could have two weapons to dual wield and someone having an equivalent double weapon.

[Thorkull]

Quintin, I just noticed this myself. Since most double weapons require an exotic weapon feat just to wield, I don't see a problem with making it a per-head fame requirement for double weapons, but we'll have to see what the rest of the VOs and the campaign management think about it.