Is there any way to do this?
It seemed so promising. My early build, that is. 1 level of Barbarian followed by 1 level of Oracle. The flavor was great, and it worked perfect in combat dealing strong damage, and with a high bonus to hit.
But, then...
The damage didn't exactly scale up. The high bonuses to hit became mediocre. The spellcasting lingered at low levels.
Here are the basic problems as I see them.
1. The spellcasting falls behind. The Oracle is already behind a level in spellcasting. Multi-classing the Oracle makes that slow progression even more miserable.
2. The BaB falls behind. Again, due to multi-classing, I'm not sure that the BaB remains competitive with CR challenges on the field. This is especially true if the character has more levels in Oracle than Barbarian, obviously.
3. There's no chance to take some of the higher level rage powers, or revelations. After all, the Rage Prophet only escalates the abilities of rage powers and revelations that you qualify for based on your actual Oracle and Barbarian levels.
4. Obviously, multi-classing into three classes seriously hampers your ability to gain a favored class bonus. This isn't the end of the world, but when added to the troubles from above it hurts.
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Like I say, I absolutely love the idea of making the Rage Prophet work. But I'm having a lot of trouble making it work well.
Can someone here please help? Am I missing something? Is there a way to build a Rage Prophet that doesn't inherently suck?
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When combined with the curse that grants immunity to fatigue, you can rage every other round making excellent use of times per rage powers.
I built a character with rage prophet in mind, and it has problems, but I don't think insurmountable ones. As mentioned the lame curse allows the use of rage without getting fatigued. Armored Hulk looks like it removes a lot of the other problems, though I won't know for certain until I actually play it. The key is to pick revelations and rage powers that work well together, give increasing benefits as you level, and for revelations at least, more or less always on. I like the weapon revelation for the battle oracle for this.
re: 3, this is somewhat true...
except that if you look at the actual Revelations, most of them don´t have level pre-reqs. I don´t think the Oracle Revelations are overly impacted by that.
from the Barbarian side, there definitely ARE big level-pre-reqs, which is why I recommend qualifying for RP with 1 Oracle level and the rest Barbarian. That gets you to some decent mid-level powers on it´s own, and it´s more than reaonable to dip back into Barbarian as you level up in Rage Prophet... OR when you finish RP and you continue advancing.
If you are interested in the stronger Rage Powers, you should have a plan on what powers you CAN get and WHEN. 8th level Barb Level for Rage Power Pre-Reqs in more than attainable by mid-levels, and that gets you some good stuff. But not having the same Rage Powers at the same Character Level is what you give up for doing the multiclass/Rage Prophet thihg. Again, most of the Revelations don´t really have Level Pre-Reqs and the Rage Prophet DOES SCALE THEM UP (which is not just bigger numbers, but new abilities in many cases). Also, the scaling Rage Powers like Strength Surge are your friend at high level.
Also note the scaling bonus from your Companion Spirits´ Guidance... That helps counter the BAB difference (and more!).
As mentioned, Lame´s eventual Immunity to Fatigue lets you leverage all those 1/Rage Powers ALOT more.
Personally, my main issue with the PRC is that they make Moment of Clarity REQUIRED to enter it. Sure, it´s useful, but if you are OK dealing with the conflict of Rage/Casting, I think that option should be allowed as well, saving you a Feat/Rage Power. You lose out on some of the benefits if you don´t have Moment of Prescience, but that just makes it even more balanced to allow it. Maybe it would be nice with some free Revelations/Powers, but it is definitely play-able as-is IMHO.
Rage Prophet can work just fine...
In fact, I don´t see any evidence from your post showing how it doesn´t work,
just theoretical comparisons to single-class builds, no inability to deal with Paizo APs, for example.
EDIT: At first i heavily disliked the spell conversion to rage rounds thing, but when I looked at it, you actually come out ahead without even using all the spells. So now i just minorly dislike it on rules-aesthetic grounds :-)
I happened across a list of options that I thought was good for Rage Prophet.
They are probalby somewhat skewed by what I consider flavor-appropriate to my concept:
(the Barb 6 Rage Powers are easily attainable... Barb 8 is also do-able by 12th char level or so, Barb 12 Rage Powers only if you leave Rage Prophet early)
Moment of Clarity Ignore restrictions and benefits of Rage
Knockback free Bullrush in place of melee attack
Surprise Accuracy 1/rage attack bonus as Swift Action -- re-add Power that bypasses/concealment/cover? or scent/concealment one
Animal Fury bite attack, grapple bonus
Reckless Abandon scaling attack bonus and AC penalty
Strength Surge 1/rage scaling bonus to CMB or CMD
World Serpent Totem scaling AC bonus vs. Aberratoins and Outsiders
-WOrld Serpent Spirit Barb 6 overcome alignment DR, bonus vs. spells and effects frm outsider/aberration and with alignment
--WOrld Serpent Unity 2x fast movement bonus, can`t be tripped, 2x world serpent AC bonus vs. Crit Confirmation
Clear Mind (Ex) Barb 8 Reroll a failed Will save
Unexpected Strike Barb 8 AoO on threat entry, 5` steps
Come and Get Me Barb 12 AoO when attacked
--------------------------------------
LIFE ORACLE
Energy Body
Channel (allows to take Channel Smite Feat)
BATTLE ORACLE
Surprising Charge (immediate move)
Battlefield Clarity (re-roll conditions with +4 bonus)
Warsight (reroll initiative, always act in surprise rounds)
Maneuver Mastery
Weapon Mastery
--------------------------------------
FEATS
Abundant Revelation
Blindfight
Deepsight (increase range)
Demonhunter
Divine Interference
Lunge
Power Attack
Cleave
Furious Focus
Shield of Swings
Dazing Assault (BAB11)
I haven't looked at the Rage Prophet prestige class before, but looking at it now, I'm hard-pressed to say why I would take levels in it instead of just taking more levels in Oracle. I guess there are a couple of neat powers (Spirit Guardian/Spirit Warrior), but that's about it.
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I'm playing a rage prophet in Society play, and I'd have to agree that certain aspects of the class do not scale well. If I had it to do over, I'd still take the class, but since I spent so little time actually casting spells I'd probably focus more levels in barbarian for the rage powers. As it is, the character is still fun to play. Granted, I'm not putting out the damage scale I'd like to, but it has been excellent in roleplay, and since I took dangerously curios I'm having all kinds of fun with UMD. I always surprise the GM when my heavily armored hulking barbarian whips out a scroll of fire ball or pulls a wand of command undead. LOL, in the last Mod, Never War 1, I actually managed to use the wand of command undead on 2 of the skeleton champions of the 5 we encountered throughout the entire adventure. Much hilarity ensued as the GM tried to figure out what the skeleton champions would be able to tell us about what had happend there. As I happend to have a wand of inflict lightwounds from another adventure where we'd become undead temporarily, we ended up having those 2 skeleton champions fighting every thing else in the place for us. Much laughter at the GM's expense here. Side note: this same PFS GM also runs our Carrion Crown campaign, and when we got to a certain point where certain wizard cultist HAD to carry around the wands of control undead to control there own skeleton champion he took them out entirely because he didn't want a repeat of the events the night before.
I have to agree with the OP - considering what the Rage Prophet does (essentially merging Barbarian and Oracle), it seems rather lagging compared to other Martial + SpellCasting PrC's -- all of which (except this one) give you full BAB progression.
(In fact, I keep wondering if the 3/4 BAB for this one was an error and keep looking to the FAQs/errata to see if it changes).
Don't get me wrong, I love the flavour of it, and there are so many neat things you can do with it -- but you end up with a character who is clearly mechanically weaker when you do it.
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Heavens Oracle Gnome Barbarian/Oracle/Rage Prophet (very little barbarian and just enough RP for con bonus to DC's)- the lagged spellcasting is partially redeemed by the crazy high DC's you can get on your spells (and Heavens Oracle can make color spray still a very potent spell well into mid-high level with a revelation).
Heavens Oracle Gnome Barbarian/Oracle/Rage Prophet (very little barbarian and just enough RP for con bonus to DC's
So basically you're talking about a Barbarian 1/Oracle 6/Rage Prophet 7? Frankly, a very tiny amount of my game playing is done at level 14+, so combinations that don't come on until very late in my PC's career leave me a bit cold.
Gnome Oracle(heavens/lame) 4/ Barbarian 2/ Rage Prophet (x).
You want awesome display -- take whatever else you want I don't care.
Rage prophet 7 is the big level of course when your color spray will affect almost anything at full potency and will have the DC increased by your Con score. Take persistent spell to help guarantee they can't do anything to you.
Color spray is going to be your trick for most of the time. The rest of the time you're a barbarian that's down a point or two of BAB as well as an almost full caster.
It's not for everyone -- I won't say it is -- but you'll have plenty of good buffs to go with your free action rage that you can drop out of when you want with no penalty.
I also agree with getting the orc bloodline eldritch heritage feats.
When combined with the curse that grants immunity to fatigue, you can rage every other round making excellent use of times per rage powers.
A lot of people seem to be of the mind that minimum Oracle levels, combined with maximum barbarian levels is the best route. Barb 5/Oracle 1/Rage Prophet - As beginning progression. Even if you go Barb 4/Oracle 2, you would need to be character level 9 before immunity to fatigue kicks in.
No matter how I slice it, something imperative to the class working is lost whenever you go heavy barb or heavy oracle. And it's all lost if you try and go half and half!
It's obvious that the revelations chosen need to not be level reliant on uses or on improvements. (such as the dex/cha ac converters in nature and lore)
The curse choice is obvious, lame.
The mystery choice is less obvious. Battle, neat things, most of which you will never ever get to use multiclassing.
Battle:
Battlecry - waste of a revelation spot
Battlefield Clarity - weak and low uses
Combat Healer - Would be AWESOME if you didn't need to be a 7th level oracle to take it. I don't see a single at level 20 build option where you would want 7 levels of oracle. And even if you did, you'd be level 19.
Ironskin - Can't ever take.
Maneuver Mastery - If you've dumped int, like you should have, then this relevation looks great, improved trip without prereqs? Sign me up...oh wait I don't get that til 7th level, nevermind, someone else may want to take a hit on their CMB for a specific maneuver for a while, and wait til 9-12th level to get imp trip, but not me!
Resiliency - exactly zero HP is a little too specific to get much benefit, and again waiting til level 9-12 to get diehard seems like a waste.
Skill at arms - Silly
War Sight - It's kinda neat, and you could enjoy it's benefits without ever needing it to upgrade. It's by no means a reason to take battle.
Weapon Mastery - I'm all for free weapon focus, and imp crit is amazing, but it's level 10-13 before you get it.
If you're making a high level character, I suppose this is an okay mystery. But if you're playing through level 1-10, you are going to hate yourself between level 4-9ish, depending on your build. If it's heavy oracle, you're going to hate yourself for a long long time.
Lore and Nature are the two mysteries that allow you to dump dex on top of wisdom and int. Not a lot else going on in those two mysteries, which isn't bad, more feats for rage powers/combat feats.
Life has the interesting ability to heal without provoking attacks of opportunity. Sounds useful for being in close combat so much. Especially since swift action healing will never happen, which would make this prestige class amazing. Life also has Life Link, which allows you to protect other people in your party from damage while you take it like a boss.
All that being said, I still have no idea which mystery is best.
I have concluded that Lame is the right curse, and that barb 4 or 5 and oracle 1 or 2 is the best route. As awesome as bull's strength sounds to have, it's not worth getting to level 2 spells. Try and think about practical matters. Every round spent casting is a round spent not killing something, and that's wasteful.
re: 3, this is somewhat true...
except that if you look at the actual Revelations, most of them don´t have level pre-reqs. I don´t think the Oracle Revelations are overly impacted by that.
A lot of them require level 3 or 7 or 11. Because of the level 7 prereq on combat healing, the SINGLE most useful revelation a rage prophet could have, it's not even possible to get, ever.
Most revelations do not gain a new benefit/ability until level 5. This means with the level 1 oracle route (which I agree is best) you will be a character level 9 before you gain those new abilities. This is important to keep in mind when choosing them. If they seem really useful now, will they still be as useful at higher levels?
I'm really not agreeing with this blanket statement that most revelations do not have level requirements...so, lets specify. While more than half of the revelations in any given mystery do not have level requirements to take, the ones worth taking do. Most of the extraneous, useless, fluffer revelations do not have level requirements, but who cares.
LIFE ORACLEEnergy Body
Channel (allows to take Channel Smite Feat)BATTLE ORACLE
Surprising Charge (immediate move)
Battlefield Clarity (re-roll conditions with +4 bonus)
Warsight (reroll initiative, always act in surprise rounds)
Maneuver Mastery
Weapon Mastery
Life Oracle has limited choices, but I'd never take that mystery without taking Safe Curing.
I do like surprising charge, I'd like it more if it wasn't only once per day for a very very long time.
Battlefield Clarity, again once per day, and even worse it's disgustingly specific in it's usefulness. Total waste, imo.
Warsight- Reroll initiative, very awesome. Always act in surprise rounds (after level 12).
Maneuver Mastery - dude if you go low oracle levels, you will take a hit on the manuever you choose until well into your RP levels. You're trade oracle levels for BAB...this is clearly not intended to be useful for multiclass.
Weapon Mastery - Love weapon focus feat, hate waiting til level 13 for improved crit.
Heavens Oracle Gnome Barbarian/Oracle/Rage Prophet (very little barbarian and just enough RP for con bonus to DC's)- the lagged spellcasting is partially redeemed by the crazy high DC's you can get on your spells (and Heavens Oracle can make color spray still a very potent spell well into mid-high level with a revelation).
Hehehe...I think I love you :)
I built a Heaven Oracle first, and then -someone- built a rage prophet and said I should play that instead. But I sooo didn't want to give up my gnome heaven oracle...if this stuff is viable, I may have just died and gone to heaven. Bada ching!
Heavens Oracle Gnome Barbarian/Oracle/Rage Prophet (very little barbarian and just enough RP for con bonus to DC'sSo basically you're talking about a Barbarian 1/Oracle 6/Rage Prophet 7? Frankly, a very tiny amount of my game playing is done at level 14+, so combinations that don't come on until very late in my PC's career leave me a bit cold.
To avoid confusion, you cannt have a Barbarian 1/Oracle 6/Rage Prophet 7. Two levels of barbarian are required to enter the prestige class. Barb/Oracle, choices are (pre prestige class switch) 2/4, 4/2, 5/1. If you intend to enter Rage Prophet at level 7.
Gnome Oracle(heavens/lame) 4/ Barbarian 2/ Rage Prophet (x).
You want awesome display -- take whatever else you want I don't care.
Rage prophet 7 is the big level of course when your color spray will affect almost anything at full potency and will have the DC increased by your Con score. Take persistent spell to help guarantee they can't do anything to you.
Color spray is going to be your trick for most of the time. The rest of the time you're a barbarian that's down a point or two of BAB as well as an almost full caster.
It's not for everyone -- I won't say it is -- but you'll have plenty of good buffs to go with your free action rage that you can drop out of when you want with no penalty.
I also agree with getting the orc bloodline eldritch heritage feats.
What stats do you believe to be best for this idea, for either 15 or 20 point buy?
Well sadly enough I would start low strength -- don't dump it... but don't worry about it to start with. We really want to boost the Con and Cha -- though since we would primarily be caster I would go with:
Cha > Con > Str >= Dex > Int = Wis
With 20 point buy I would probably do something along the following:
16 Cha 16 Con 12 Str 12 Dex 10 Int 7 Wis
Spells would include self buffing things like divine favor, prayer, divine power and the like. Color spray is going to be your main offensive spell.
I would put stat adjustments into Cha.
Other choices for blood line would include abyssal (for inherent strength bonus) or pit touched (for Con bonus)... with pit touched really be a looker to me.
Metamagic feats I would look at include: Persistent, Widen, quicken and Thenodic (or whatever it is called that allows you to affect undead).
For actual combat you'll have rage and your bloodline giving a +10 (later +12) bonus to your strength.
However for ultimate use of the color spray everything under the sun tactic you'll want to start with a 20 Cha and get it as high as you can.
Well sadly enough I would start low strength -- don't dump it... but don't worry about it to start with. We really want to boost the Con and Cha -- though since we would primarily be caster I would go with:
Cha > Con > Str >= Dex > Int = Wis
With 20 point buy I would probably do something along the following:
16 Cha 16 Con 12 Str 12 Dex 10 Int 7 WisSpells would include self buffing things like divine favor, prayer, divine power and the like. Color spray is going to be your main offensive spell.
I would put stat adjustments into Cha.
Other choices for blood line would include abyssal (for inherent strength bonus) or pit touched (for Con bonus)... with pit touched really be a looker to me.
Metamagic feats I would look at include: Persistent, Widen, quicken and Thenodic (or whatever it is called that allows you to affect undead).
For actual combat you'll have rage and your bloodline giving a +10 (later +12) bonus to your strength.
However for ultimate use of the color spray everything under the sun tactic you'll want to start with a 20 Cha and get it as high as you can.
How about level progression then?
I'm starting at level 2. With previous build angles, it seemed obvious to go barb -> oracle -> barb -> all barb or all oracle here, in this case all oracle. But if color spray is so important, should it be rearranged to barb -> oracle -> oracle -> barb (for moment of clarity) ->oracle -> oracle?
Honestly I think it could work however you want it to.
The question is what are you going for? Caster/rager or Rager/caster?
Getting barbarian first level would give you fast movement at level 1 when it's going to matter the most, and you'll still be able to get good use out of intimidate at that point. Hitting oracle at level 2 means you'll take a hit to your land speed (10 feet! ouch) but with favored class oracle you'll be two levels into your curse already (1/2 barbarian and 1 1/2 from oracle with favored class). I would then hit oracle again (color spray at level 3 isn't going to be a bad thing for you) followed by barbarian and finishing with the two oracle levels before going rage prophet (this also means that you'll have oracle 5 for purposes of your curse at level 5 which is a nice deal).
Awesome display is going to be your primary means of casting offensively with color spray -- but use your casting as a means of hiding what you can do. Someone gets close color spray -- someone needs healed hit them with a cure light, main fighter needs some support? Rage and charge.
Your main problem will probably be choosing the right thing to do at the right time.
Honestly I think it could work however you want it to.
The question is what are you going for? Caster/rager or Rager/caster?
Getting barbarian first level would give you fast movement at level 1 when it's going to matter the most, and you'll still be able to get good use out of intimidate at that point. Hitting oracle at level 2 means you'll take a hit to your land speed (10 feet! ouch) but with favored class oracle you'll be two levels into your curse already (1/2 barbarian and 1 1/2 from oracle with favored class). I would then hit oracle again (color spray at level 3 isn't going to be a bad thing for you) followed by barbarian and finishing with the two oracle levels before going rage prophet (this also means that you'll have oracle 5 for purposes of your curse at level 5 which is a nice deal).
Awesome display is going to be your primary means of casting offensively with color spray -- but use your casting as a means of hiding what you can do. Someone gets close color spray -- someone needs healed hit them with a cure light, main fighter needs some support? Rage and charge.
Your main problem will probably be choosing the right thing to do at the right time.
You and I are on the exact same page with what I want to do with this class idea. I built a great gnome heaven oracle, and then someone dangled the idea of a rage prophet over my head. Now I can combine what I love about both! Awesome.
"but use your casting as a means of hiding what you can do.", think anyone will wonder why the gnome casting illusions has a greatsword on her back? I would.
I wouldn't but I've already promised my group I won't use rage prophet so...
Clear Mind (Ex) Barb 8 Reroll a failed Will save
Unexpected Strike Barb 8 AoO on threat entry, 5` stepsCome and Get Me Barb 12 AoO when attacked
I was reading back over this post to get any ideas on additional rage powers and if they were worth a feat...
Please tell me, at what level do you recommend taking these any of these 3 rage powers?
Lets just take one for example, one of the level 8 barbarian rage powers. If you go heavy barb rage prophet build, you're 1 oracle, 5 barbarian levels when you hit rage prophet for level 7...how many levels of rage prophet do you think one should take before they dip back into barbarian for the 3 levels they need to even qualify for a level 8 rage power? Just wondering what practicality we're aiming for here.
I have to agree with the OP - considering what the Rage Prophet does (essentially merging Barbarian and Oracle), it seems rather lagging compared to other Martial + SpellCasting PrC's -- all of which (except this one) give you full BAB progression.
(In fact, I keep wondering if the 3/4 BAB for this one was an error and keep looking to the FAQs/errata to see if it changes).
Don't get me wrong, I love the flavour of it, and there are so many neat things you can do with it -- but you end up with a character who is clearly mechanically weaker when you do it.
I have a theory that PF writers LOVE 3/4 BAB. If they could they would make all classes 3/4 BAB, thus why they magus is what it is. They like giving a tone of cool abilities in place for the BAB loss.
If you go heavy barb rage prophet build, you're 1 oracle, 5 barbarian levels when you hit rage prophet for level 7...how many levels of rage prophet do you think one should take before they dip back into barbarian for the 3 levels they need to even qualify for a level 8 rage power?
Clear Mind (Ex) Barb 8 Reroll a failed Will save
Unexpected Strike Barb 8 AoO on threat entry, 5` steps
I left off the 12th level Rage Powers because if you go into RP for any depth at all (not finishing it per se) that will be very late in the game when you can take those. For gaining the 3 more levels (beyond your first 5) you need to take the 8th-level-Pre-Req Powers, I think you can really take them at any time... Honestly, if you are going Barbarian-heavy you can dip out of RP at any time and be very effective. The other RP bonuses are MOST noticeable if you are heavy into Oracle - if you aren´t, then CON to DC is nice, but you probably aren´t casting those types of spells in the first place (i.e. heavy-Barb RP´s mostly use buffs and utility spells, not attack spells with Saves).
The main RP level I see you really appreciating is the 5th level upgrade to Spirit Guardian, that gives you bonuses vs. certain enemy types and Ghost Touch. I would say that without delaying RP too much, you can have 1 additional Barbarian level before you get to 5th level in RP - that also gives you an extra/free Rage Power from Barbarian 5... After 5th level RP you take 2 more Barbarian levels, which also nets a free Rage Power (at Barb level 8, i.e. a good one!).
Unexpected Strike is worth it to me, ESPECIALLY for this build, because it gives the ever-useful AoO. RPs will be lagging full Barbs in Barb Level, so Come and Get Me is only possible very late in the game... But Unexpected Strike means any enemy moving to attack you (and anybody 5´ stepping, whether or not they attack you - f*#! you casters!) will provoke - letting you Strength Surge/Knockback them, and prevent any attacks on you in the first place (or Disarm their weapon, or just hit them hard, etc). Unexpected Strike is the poor man´s Come and Get Me - and fortunately for you doesn´t require Combat Reflexes to get the most out of - WITHOUT Combat Reflexes, there isn´t really much difference between the two, and given you are splitting stats more (to cast spells) AND buying almost all your Rage Powers via Feat, not spending a Feat on CR is a good thing.
Personally, I rate those Powers I listed as DEFINITELY worth the Feat (although you will get at least 1 free as I mentioned above). RP gives you pretty damn nice Base Saves, so a Will Save Re-Roll will almost certainly be worth the while (e.g. a base Fighter getting a Will Save Re-Roll may not be worth it vs. high Tier threats).
Over-all, you don´t need to worry about qualifying for LOTS of Revelations (re: Level).
Because you have to buy all the ones you don´t get free from Oracle levels, on top of buying Rage Powers and normal Feats, you realistically aren´t going to get anywhere near all the Revelations.
The ones that scale up with level are remarkably good to take AT HIGH LEVELS, when the RP levels will scale them up to at least their 2nd tier of effects (same goes for Rage Powers). Also note that usage/day Revelations (like Surprising Charge) can be enhanced with a Feat that gives you one more usage/day.
Either way, if you decide to go heavy-Oracle or heavy-Barbarian, you will easily be able to take a few more levels (during RP progression and after) to quickly qualify for the ´nice´ mid-level Powers/Revelations.
Another note-worthy thing about the PrC is the Rage Prophet Mystery spells.
THESE DON´T REPLACE YOUR NORMAL MYSTERY SPELLS, which you continue to gain as Casting progresses.
Besides sometimes being spells that aren´t normally Divine spells, these are a great addition...
A few of them are ´combat useful´ (See Invis), but mostly they give great out-of-combat utility,
that re-enforce your role as ´Oracular Warrior´, with alot of Divinitation type spells,
that can in many cases be seriosly useful even if you normally might not have spent a limited spell-known on those.
ESPECIALLY if your party doesn´t have a Cleric with full spell list access each time they prepare spells,
getting these free via the PrC is a nice thing.
Another note: if you are going Oracle-heavy, and are a Human, the Favored Class Bonus of extra spell known is important when deciding when to dip back into Oracle, i.e. taking into account the spell level you have access to at that point. Also for Oracle-heavy builds, the last 2 and even 3 levels of RP seem largely optional as the last 2 don´t really help Casting in any way. The ´personal´ spell casting without leaving Rage/using Moment of Clarity (at 8th level) is NICE, but ultimately not necessary especialy considering you have class abilities which only kick in when USING Moment of Clarity... So for an oracle-heavy build, I can see only taking RP until 7th level (when you get CON to DC).
Another note-worthy thing about the PrC is the Rage Prophet Mystery spells.
THESE DON´T REPLACE YOUR NORMAL MYSTERY SPELLS, which you continue to gain as Casting progresses.
Besides sometimes being spells that aren´t normally Divine spells, these are a great addition...
A few of them are ´combat useful´ (See Invis), but mostly they give great out-of-combat utility,
that re-enforce your role as ´Oracular Warrior´, with alot of Divinitation type spells,
that can in many cases be seriosly useful even if you normally might not have spent a limited spell-known on those.
ESPECIALLY if your party doesn´t have a Cleric with full spell list access each time they prepare spells,
getting these free via the PrC is a nice thing.
I'm not following how you determined that the RP mystery spells are gained along with your oracle mystery spells.
Savage Seer: A rage prophet's class level stacks with barbarian levels for determining the effect of rage powers, and with oracle levels for determining the effect of oracle revelations and his oracle's curse. This does not grant additional abilities. (This does not say RP levels stack to qualify for oracle levels for bonus mystery spells.)
Clearly, this is why the RP has it's own bonus mystery spell selection.
Rage Prophet Mystery: At 2nd level and every even level thereafter, a rage prophet learns an additional spell from his spirit guide. These spells are in addition to those listed in Table 2-6: Oracle Spells Known. Like spells from an oracle's mystery, the rage prophet cannot exchange these spells for different spells at higher levels. The rage prophet must be able to cast oracle spells of the listed level to learn one of these spells from his spirit guide. The rage prophet treats the spell as an oracle spell of the listed level. The possible spells are arcane eye (4th), augury (2nd), divination (4th), dream (5th), find the path (6th), helping hand (3rd), see invisibility (2nd), shadow walk (6th), speak with dead (3rd), spectral hand (2nd), spiritual weapon (2nd), unseen servant (1st), vision (7th), and whispering wind (2nd).
I can only assume you interpreted the bold text to mean they are received in addition to bonus mystery spells, but it means they are received in addition to the static number of spells an oracle knowns at each given level. I do not read that as in addition to the oracle mystery spells at levels the player has not attained IN oracle.
If I am a barb 2/oracle (heaven) 4/Rage Prophet 3 Then I have my Color spray lvl 2 bonus spell known, Hypnotic pattern for level 4 bonus spell, and based on the level of spells I am now able to cast I have any rage prophet mystery spell of level 1 2 or 3. I do not have the 6th level oracle bonus heaven mystery spell of Daylight(6th).
It would be awesome if it somehow worked that way, but I'm not understanding how it can.
Rage Prophet (and all Caster PrCs) state that when advancing a spontaneous casting class`s casting, you gain spells known as if you advanced in the base class. The wording of Rage Prophet Mystery doesn`t contradict that, it`s in parallel to that functioning.
¨At 2nd level, and every two levels thereafter, an oracle learns an additional spell derived from her mystery. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table 2–6. They cannot be exchanged for different spells at higher levels.¨
¨ At the indicated levels, a rage prophet gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a divine spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous caster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting.¨
Rage Prophet (and all Caster PrCs) state that when advancing a spontaneous casting class`s casting, you gain spells known as if you advanced in the base class. The wording of Rage Prophet Mystery doesn`t contradict that, it`s in parallel to that functioning.
It doesn't state however you gain bonus spells from class abilities. That's why the dragon disciple specifically spells out that it does advance them.
Where is the restriction to learning spells known ONLY from the Table? There isn`t any.
It just says `as if you gained a level in that class`.
If the Mystery spells are not spells known (granted by the class, thus inheritd by RP casting progression) then nobody can Cast them.
As you note, the Rage Prophet Mystery specifically acknowledges it`s `being in addition to` the base Spells Known Table (this is the exact same wording that the Oracle Mystery uses), so Paizo seemingly can reference that Table just fine... But they don`t restrict Spells Known gained from Rage Prophet`s Casting advancement to just that Table, but rather to what is gained from the Class.
The wording of Rage Prophet mystery DOESN`T preclude also gaining all spells known that your Oracle advancement grants, it just doesn`t specifically acknowledge that. Dragon Disciple may well have superfluous wording - Paizo has confirmed that the rules are indeed redundant in many areas and they don`t have a problem with that. Sometimes they redundantly mention rules when it isn`t really helpful, sometimes they DON`T do so when it would be helpful... That doesn`t prevent one from applying the RAW.
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A dragon disciple adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline. If the dragon disciple does not have levels of sorcerer, he instead gains bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline, using his dragon disciple level as his sorcerer level to determine the bonuses gained. He must choose a dragon type upon gaining his first level in this class and that type must be the same as his sorcerer type. This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Such bonus spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell's level.
The specifics of this ability wouldn't be needed if you were right.
In fact bonus spells from a mystery are received from the mystery -- not from the spells known chart.
Please note the following:
At 2nd level and every even level thereafter, a rage prophet learns an additional spell from his spirit guide. These spells are in addition to those listed in Table 2-6: Oracle Spells Known. Like spells from an oracle’s mystery, the rage prophet cannot exchange these spells for different spells at higher levels. The rage prophet must be able to cast oracle spells of the listed level to learn one of these spells from his spirit guide.
That says table. Said table does not include the bonus mystery spells.
The mystery bonus spells are a function of the mystery -- which is something that is specifically not advanced. Don't advance the mystery don't gain your bonus spells.
Freddy Krueger kills 10 school girls every day.
He also kills 1 school bus driver every day.
In addition to the school girls, he also kills 2 teachers every day.
The last sentence isn`t in conflict with the 2nd line.
Rage Prophet (and all Caster PrCs) state that when advancing a spontaneous casting class`s casting, you gain spells known as if you advanced in the base class. The wording of Rage Prophet Mystery doesn`t contradict that, it`s in parallel to that functioning.
¨At 2nd level, and every two levels thereafter, an oracle learns an additional spell derived from her mystery. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table 2–6. They cannot be exchanged for different spells at higher levels.¨
¨ At the indicated levels, a rage prophet gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a divine spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous caster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting.¨
Dude, "except for" additional spells per day, spells known and an increased effective level of spellcasting. That's not saying you get bonus spells for that class. It's saying you get to use the chart of spells KNOWN, the number of spells for which you are allowed to know do not include the bonus spells from ANY mystery. Ok?
Does not gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained. If you look at the oracle chart, it's a special class bonus. Under the chart area labeled "special", just like revelations. And just like revelations, rage prophet levels do not stack for the sake of qualifying to take a new revelation or oracle levels needed to qualify to take a 7th or 11th level revelation.
You do not get the original mystery bonus spell in any of those mysteries until your Oracle class level corresponds with the required level on the Oracle chart. It is not a spell granted by being a divine caster, it is a spell granted by being a 6th level ORACLE.
"An oracle casts divine spells drawn from the cleric spell lists. She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time."
Bonus spells aren't on the cleric spell list. Those "bonus spells" are a class feature gained when the appropriate level in that class is attained.
Mystery spells are a function of the mystery oracle class feature, which does not improve as you take levels in Rage Prophet.
Honestly I think it could work however you want it to.
The question is what are you going for? Caster/rager or Rager/caster?
Getting barbarian first level would give you fast movement at level 1 when it's going to matter the most, and you'll still be able to get good use out of intimidate at that point. Hitting oracle at level 2 means you'll take a hit to your land speed (10 feet! ouch) but with favored class oracle you'll be two levels into your curse already (1/2 barbarian and 1 1/2 from oracle with favored class). I would then hit oracle again (color spray at level 3 isn't going to be a bad thing for you) followed by barbarian and finishing with the two oracle levels before going rage prophet (this also means that you'll have oracle 5 for purposes of your curse at level 5 which is a nice deal).
Awesome display is going to be your primary means of casting offensively with color spray -- but use your casting as a means of hiding what you can do. Someone gets close color spray -- someone needs healed hit them with a cure light, main fighter needs some support? Rage and charge.
Your main problem will probably be choosing the right thing to do at the right time.
An update.
I began the projected character at level 2. 1 barb 1 oracle...obviously I took another level of oracle next, as I wanted to be able to utilize color spray ASAP. It's a real game changer. Level 4 now, 2 barb 2 oracle, and it's very effective.
Sure, I can't do a whole lot of damage when raging, but I can do more than a caster out of spells or a heavy healer with no damage tricks. My character is never out of options to contribute...well unless it's a jumping contest.
6 spells per day, cure light is currently 1d8+4. Color spraying can end many many combats and encounters at these levels. And if on a combat bender and spells happen to run out, rage and kill it before it kills us!
As you stated though, it is sometimes hard to decide what precisely to do in most situations. Rage and do +8 to hit 1d10+4, or cure for 1d8+4, color spray most anything we encounter at this level into unconsciousness, or buff the group/sanctuary our squishy caster with low AC ^_^ It's so diverse! Dumb as a rock and no skill points to speak of since I dumped int, but super good at diplomacy and bluffing nonetheless!
The goal is barb 2/oracle 4/rage prophet ...
This is what I recommend for anyone who wants to dabble in this concept, and heaven mystery of course!
Edit: Oh and forgot the best part, immunity to fatigue starts at the next level gain (character level 5), can't wait!
To avoid confusion, you cannt have a Barbarian 1/Oracle 6/Rage Prophet 7. Two levels of barbarian are required to enter the prestige class. Barb/Oracle, choices are (pre prestige class switch) 2/4, 4/2, 5/1. If you intend to enter Rage Prophet at level 7.Heavens Oracle Gnome Barbarian/Oracle/Rage Prophet (very little barbarian and just enough RP for con bonus to DC'sSo basically you're talking about a Barbarian 1/Oracle 6/Rage Prophet 7? Frankly, a very tiny amount of my game playing is done at level 14+, so combinations that don't come on until very late in my PC's career leave me a bit cold.
Oops, I stand corrected. I should have said Barbarian 2/Oracle 4/Rage Prophet 7.
I like the idea of Armored Hulk Barbarian, Metal Oracle, Rage Prophet. The Metal Oracle as 3 good revelations that scale with level. That would be Armor mastery, Iron Constitution, and Dance of Blades.
I haven't played a Rage Prophet nor have I seen one in actual game play, but here is my opinion.
Take it for what is worth.
10 level Rage prophet is at least a 16th level character. Let's look at this 16th level character and compare it to other 16th level characters.
Oracle 1 + barbarian 5 + Rage Prophet 10 = BAB 12, CL 8 (or 13 when raging) , highest spell level 4
Oracle 4 + Barbarian 2 + Rage Prophet 10 = BAB 12, CL 11 (or 13 when raging), highest pell level 5
There is some talk about Rage caster and Spirit Guide.
Rage caster is a joke. DC doesn't matter when you cast 3rd level spells at level 16. Even 5th level spells are but a joke - if we talk about spells that calls for a saving throw.
Unless he is ranging his his CL will suck.
So what is good with this Class? The fighting power or the caster power.
Let's take a look at other 3/4 BAB classes.
Bard, Magus, Inquisitor: BAB 12, CL 16 highest spells: 6.
Cleric and druid: BAB 12, CL 16 highest spells: 8.
Fighter 1, wizard 5 + 10 level Eldritch Knight: BAB 12, CL 14, highest spell 8th.
A 4th level oracle + 2nd levels barbarian + 10th levels Rage prophet can't even cast heal. Even a 6th level Inquisitor can cast heal. So is the Rage prophet a good spell casting class? No.
Concentration checks? Your casting spells in battle? The highest spells you can cast is 5th level spells. Even a Bard can d hat without a problem at level 16.
So let's go Barbarian. 1 level oracle + 5 levels barbarian + 10 levels Rage prophet. Highest spells: 4th.
Ant can any other classes that at level 16 cast 4th level spells?
Ranger and Paladin: BAB 16, CL 13, Highest spell 4th. With the trait magical knack it's CL 15.
Ranger, be it the Vanilla or any other can cast Instant Enemy as a swift action getting +8 to attack and damage
The Gudie (Ranger archetype) can use his Ranger’s Focus 6 times/day and once per day his Inspired Moment lets him move + full attack and he get +10 to move and +4 to AC and +4 to attack etc.
Paladin: Smite evil 6 (or 7) times per day.
BAB does not only affect to hit. High BAB = more attack, and it affects power attack and deadly aim-. A lot of feats also have BAB as a pre req.
I can go on and prove how much more versatile and powerful a bard or an Inquisitor is. Even a Ranger or Paladin is Paladin.
Oracle with a boost? 14 levels Oracle and 2 levels Paladin.
Divine dude with a temper? Ranger or Inquisitor.
Melee dude with High Char? Paladin or Bard.
If you like the Rage Prophet from a role playing point - go for it. But if you want a class with good mechanics - change class. ...or even play a barbarian 12 + Oracle 4.
Remember all the good rage powers comes with a pre req...and the same goes for most good Revelations.
Just my take on it.
stuffs
Oracle 1, Cleric 12 (rage subdomain) Rage Prophet 7
BAB: +14
Level for curse: 14
Caster level 17 cleric (19 with trait 21 while raging)
Just saying that there is more than one way to skin a cat.
Another option would be:
Oracle 1, barbarian 2, cleric 4, Rage prophet 10.
This would mean Caster level 11 (13 with trait) and maximum 6th level spells, with a BAB of +11 at level 17, at level 20 it would again be a +14 (provided you just go cleric), and a caster level of 14.
However I still think the primary use of Rage Prophet is going to be a heavens oracle with color spray and awesome display as the DC will matter in this case, and the spell will retain effectiveness even at higher levels.
@ abe: we are not skinning the same cat. You are comparing a 21st level char and a level 17 char to a 16th level char. Most adventure paths don't even run higher than 16, maximum 17th level.
Best way to look at a build is to compare it to others. A 16 level char Oracle/Barb/Rage Prophet is perhaps cool if you are up against critters, but so is any build.
I rather play a barb 15 + oracle 1. At level 9 (8 barb + 1 oracle) he is immune to the fatigued condition. This more or less gives him Tireless rage @ level 9. He can still use wands and pick Skill at Arms so he can get use heavy armor.
If he wants a hybrid class with spells play: bard, Inquisitor, Cleric, Druid, Alchemist, Magus or Oracle. Or a multi classed char. Even a Ranger or Paladin is better.
Abe wrote:
However I still think the primary use of Rage Prophet is going to be a heavens oracle with color spray and awesome display as the DC will matter in this case, and the spell will retain effectiveness even at higher levels.
No.
Wasting a standard action on this?
@ abe: we are not skinning the same cat. You are comparing a 21st level char and a level 17 char to a 16th level char. Most adventure paths don't even run higher than 16, maximum 17th level.
Best way to look at a build is to compare it to others. A 16 level char Oracle/Barb/Rage Prophet is perhaps cool if you are up against critters, but so is any build.
20th level and a 17th. If you can't compare in general a 16th and a 17th I don't know what to say to you really.
However I still think the primary use of Rage Prophet is going to be a heavens oracle with color spray and awesome display as the DC will matter in this case, and the spell will retain effectiveness even at higher levels.No.
It's a level 1 spell
It's a mind affecting spell
It has spell resistance. Wasting a standard action on this?
Your opinion is its a waste. My opinion is that its not. Sure it's mind affecting -- but then plenty of things have minds. Sure it's first level, but then again when you are adding your Con modifier on to the DC and planning to use it specifically then it being level 1 matters a lot less.
Lets be honestly the only way it being level 1 matters is for globe of invulnerability and save throw DC. Spell resistance does matter, but then that can be said for what... 1/2 of all spells out there? For the chance to render multiple opponents unconscious blind, stunned, etc at higher levels I consider the spell still worth while.
@ Abe.
His CL can't be higher than his Character level (CL 21 and char level 20).
17 vs 17 and 20 vs 20 is more honest, don't you think? A 17 level cleric or druid cast 9th level spells. A Arcane duelist 16, Paladin 4 (or fighter 4) would make your 20 level char look like a clown. So would any well build 20 level char.
Arcane duelist 14 + Dragon Disciple 4 + Paladin 2.
Cleric 18 + Paladin 2.
Sorcerer 14 + Dragon Disciple 4 + Paladin 2.
Looking at your 17th level char, a 16 level Arcne duelist + 1 Paladin (or fighter) would beat the crap out of this guy so would an Arcne duelist 13 + Dragon Disciple 4. A level 17 Inquisitor would be more versatile, more fun and more powerful.
Abe wrote: "Lets be honestly the only way it being level 1 matters is for globe of invulnerability and save throw DC."
So DC doesn't matter?
Abe wrote: "Spell resistance does matter, but then that can be said for what... 1/2 of all spells out there?"
Yes, and that's why a full casters focusing on spells with SR picks spell penetration and greater SP.
A well built full caster don't cast spells with SR that also calls for saves. At least not at higher levels and at least not unless they got full CL and spell penetration + Greater spell penetration.
@ Abe.
His CL can't be higher than his Character level (CL 21 and char level 20).
Yes it can -- easily. I don't see why you can't easily see that this is possible.
17 vs 17 and 20 vs 20 is more honest, don't you think? A 17 level cleric or druid cast 9th level spells. A Arcane duelist 16, Paladin 4 (or fighter 4) would make your 20 level char look like a clown. So would any well build 20 level char.Arcane duelist 14 + Dragon Disciple 4 + Paladin 2.
Cleric 18 + Paladin 2.
Sorcerer 14 + Dragon Disciple 4 + Paladin 2.Looking at your 17th level char, a 16 level Arcne duelist + 1 Paladin (or fighter) would beat the crap out of this guy so would an Arcne duelist 13 + Dragon Disciple 4. A level 17 Inquisitor would be more versatile, more fun and more powerful.
Sure if they aren't unconscious or blind.
Abe wrote: "Lets be honestly the only way it being level 1 matters is for globe of invulnerability and save throw DC."So DC doesn't matter?
Of course it does that's why I said it does -- I also pointed out the mitigating factors involved.
Abe wrote: "Spell resistance does matter, but then that can be said for what... 1/2 of all spells out there?"Yes, and that's why a full casters focusing on spells with SR picks spell penetration and greater SP.
A well built full caster don't cast spells with SR that also calls for saves. At least not at higher levels and at least not unless they got full CL and spell penetration + Greater spell penetration.
And the guy has more than full caster level with no feats spent yet leaving him plenty of room for both spell penetration and greater spell penetration. Honestly he could also go for spell perfection along the way, which would mean he would automatically beat any SR 30 or under.
I'm beginning to think you've not really looked at the abilities in question.
Yes it can -- easily. I don't see why you can't easily see that this is possible.@ Abe.
His CL can't be higher than his Character level (CL 21 and char level 20).
No, you can't have a CL higher than you Character level. Not without spells or items. Sure an Orange Ioun Stone gives you +1 CL and Death Knell gives you a temporary +1 bonus to CL. It the case of the Rage Prophet however you can't have a CL higher than the Character level since magical knack does not permit a raising the CL higher than the character level.
So even if you use an Ioun Stone and Death Knell, the magical knack trait would only grant you a +1 bonus to CL. If you don't use Magicl knack I can't see how a level 10 Rage Prophet with 10 levels of Oracle and Barbarian mix can have any more than CL 17.But if I have missed any new cool feat please tell me, because why I "can't easily see that this is possible" is the current rules.
"Of course it does that's why I said it does -- I also pointed out the mitigating factors involved"
Sorry, No irony intended, but I don't understand what you mean.
Sure if they aren't unconscious or blind.
None of my theoretical builds can be knocked unconscious or blind by color spray since they are more than 4 HD.
If they role a natural 1 the might be stunned for 1 round unless there is some spell or item protecting from that. Of course an Inquisitor with the luck domain can re role her natural 1.The Rage Prophet gets Ragecaster at level 7, so Character level 13. What con bonus is he going to have? +2 or +3 to maximum?
Start with 14 con then add an ioun stone of con +2. This gets you a +3 con bonus. Then add the charisma bonus +6?
A level 13 Inquisitor will even at this level auto saves unless rolling a natural 1.
Base save +8, wis mod +5, heroism +2, cloak of res +3 or +4 and possibly a +1 luck bonus.
Sure you can boost his char higher, but the point is most of the time it will be useless at this level unless fighting critters or things with crappy will saves, no SR, etc.
And the guy has more than full caster level with no feats spent yet leaving him plenty of room for both spell penetration and greater spell penetration. Honestly he could also go for spell perfection along the way, which would mean he would automatically beat any SR 30 or under.I'm beginning to think you've not really looked at the abilities in question.
A) No, he has not more than full caster levels.
B) Spell penetration, greater spell, spell perfection and 3 meta magic feats that's 6 feats just to prove a point." you beginning to think I have not really looked at the abilities in question?"
If I have missed something please explain it to me. At level 7 the b Rage Prophet can add his barbarian levels to CL, but he can't add all his Rage Prophet levels to CL. He lose CL at level 1, 5 and 8 as Rage Prophet. So how can is CL be higher than his character level? Also the magical knack trait don't let you CL be higher than your character level.
@ Abe, two pieces of advice. Calm down and get back on track. I don't want to debate if it is possible to create a Rage Prophet that can cast color spray with a high DC and high spell penetration. A full gnome caster can probably do this much better. You can of course create any highly unlikely build or/and hypothetical situation to prove your point, but in doing so you have proven nothing. Sure you can create a barbarian with str 7 con 18 char 20 that adds all is albilty points at every 4th level do char, then get a tome of char +5 and just go from there to prove your point, but you only end up being silly and aggressive. The OP cleary wants a powerful character that can melee and use som spells. Adding all that you got on one spell - or even on spells in general - is not going to help the OP, nor prove you right.
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All right, the ability to add Con to your DCs is the most powerful effect in the game. So the issue is "how to make them not suck @ low levels". It's difficult; being in a high-point build to get the extreme Str/Con/Chr is a great start.
I'd go with Urban Barbarian, as they have some level of control and casting-while-raged in the first place. After you get your prereq 2, switch to oracle. Early rage and swing (first 4-5 levels Str is all you need to be a star). later get the rage ability to let you scare everyone (Cha will be high anyway) and do dazzling display tricks. Very late hit people with DC 30+ saves. You'll be quite good; and scale well, it's just a bit sad they work a little better @ mid / late as support instead of front line.
And don't mess with them in campaigns which aren't going high enough to see "payoff" levels (rage prophet 8).
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I personally designed one using the Metal Mystery; chosen mysteries were armor mastery for no speed reduction in medium armor and dance of blades for an added 10 feet of speed, and then I started taking the Spirit Rage powers because his Charisma would be high enough to make ridiculously good use of them. So all in all he, as of right now, has a speed of 50 high enough Charisma for the maximum level of spells he's going to access. He also has the clouded vision curse because having a barbarian that's immune to sight related affects (such as a medusa's gaze attack or a dragon's fear) is awesome. If I put more thought into it, I would probably start taking the Extra Rage Power and Extra Revelation feats so I could become the unstoppable behemoth that I know this particular combo could be if built properly.
this is sort of off topic (for the later posts- i think its directly related to OP) but in the last two campaigns i've been in (one GMing, and one as a player) we've just ignored the ruling from the forums about RP levels not allowing you to qualify for better rage powers/revelations (RAW, in the APG, seem to allow this, though it requires taking the extra rage power or extra revelation feats- the restriction is a clarification of RAI/sort of written, that is posted in the forums somewhere).
in our experience that was not at all unbalancing. it adds very little to the one or two good builds that are floating around without it, but it opens up a world of possibilities for other interesting and still fairly useful RPs. i had a 13th lvl npc who was barb 2/oracle 4/rage prophet 7 with the haunted curse, spirit totem rage powers, and the bone mystery... he was awesome and effective but in no way unbalanced.
just my two cents.