He treats his friends and family like crap because he's apathetic about social relations. If he were inept, he couldn't fake social relations.
As for his code (ie. Why he doesn't put cameras everywhere), yes its weird. But he's competent in social relations that he knows his code is the only thing keeping the world safe from him.
Really? Is that why he was desperately trying to get Gordon to be his friend again in No Man's Land?
Really? Is that why he was desperately trying to get Gordon to be his friend again in No Man's Land?He treats his friends and family like crap because he's apathetic about social relations. If he were inept, he couldn't fake social relations.
As for his code (ie. Why he doesn't put cameras everywhere), yes its weird. But he's competent in social relations that he knows his code is the only thing keeping the world safe from him.
Batman has been written over many years by many different writers. Cherry picking one particular story from over a decade ago doesn't prove your case.
He has always been shown as a master detective. How could he be that if he's inept in social relations?
Being a detective and being good at social situations are two completely different animals, in fact some of the aspects that make a person incredibly good at being a detective, can make them bad at socializing. A good example is Leeroy Jethro Gibbs of NCIS fame, he's a pretty good detective, but he's a complete jerk, and while he can be good at socializing, he usually doesn't care for it.
CLEARLY, AM URBAN BATBARIAN 20. BATMAN AM ALWAYS WINNER.
AM BATMAN.
The "utility" belt is a handy haversac in belt form. The "toys" are a bunch of really good one shot magic items which he can buy.
I say monk/Rogue/ranger/shadowdancer gestalt madness.
Edit: it occurs to me that Magus would be a good addition to this mix.
You state that like its a fact. Its not . What is a factf is that a detective needs to know how to get people to trust him, to believe in him, to confide in him. That requires social skills.
The fact that Gibbs can be good at, but doesn't care to be good at, social situations is apathy, not ineptitude.
Or simply hang them upside down from a building until they tell him the information he wants to know.
CLEARLY, AM URBAN BATBARIAN 20. BATMAN AM ALWAYS WINNER.
AM BATMAN.
I saw you post and thats the only reason I checked this thread. ;-)
I suspect this thread will go the way of other superhero discussions. (hint; It's not a good place)
Frankly Batman is whatever the writers need him to be. They needed him to be a powerhouse so he got a power ring for awhile.
CLEARLY, AM URBAN BATBARIAN 20. BATMAN AM ALWAYS WINNER.
AM BATMAN.
I saw you post and thats the only reason I checked this thread. ;-)
I suspect this thread will go the way of other superhero discussions. (hint; It's not a good place)
Frankly Batman is whatever the writers need him to be. They needed him to be a powerhouse so he got a power ring for awhile.
That usually doesn't last very long, typically a page or two, the one time it did was an Elseworlds, and the Guardians had to create the Justice League to counter him.
I've read too many comics.
I've always thought that if Clark or Bruce put on the ring, it is pretty much game over. And I've read that else worlds. Also the one where Kal becomes batman becomes superman.
Assuming he wants to be heavy handed about it. But sometimes its best just to pass himself off as a dock loader tossing dice with the criminals.Or simply hang them upside down from a building until they tell him the information he wants to know.You state that like its a fact. Its not . What is a factf is that a detective needs to know how to get people to trust him, to believe in him, to confide in him. That requires social skills.
The fact that Gibbs can be good at, but doesn't care to be good at, social situations is apathy, not ineptitude.
I believe this falls under the "he's good at everything" category. Social skills are important, but so is his ability to accurately throw explosive or smoke batarangs.
I assumed the question was brought up by a player who wants to play a Batman-type. As such, the value of this thread comes from exploring different ways to do that.CLEARLY, AM URBAN BATBARIAN 20. BATMAN AM ALWAYS WINNER.
AM BATMAN.
I saw you post and thats the only reason I checked this thread. ;-)
I suspect this thread will go the way of other superhero discussions. (hint; It's not a good place)
Frankly Batman is whatever the writers need him to be. They needed him to be a powerhouse so he got a power ring for awhile.
I think high ranks in everything (including social skills) is the best way to do this. Rogue/ ninja build being the best way to do that.
In a different system, probably hero system, he would cost around 1,000 points. He's simply too superhuman to properly be built, the man can lift a ton, giving him a 32-33 strength, this is unenhanced strength, and he is definitely not a barbarian.....except socially speaking.
Wha!??!?!
Batman can NOT lift a ton ... at all. He's just a guy. Bane, all juiced up on Venom ... maybe. Not Batman, though. He's just a guy that fights other "just a guy" types out there, as thugs mind you, that he hits and they take it and turn around and hit him harder.
Yes, he ultimately takes those guys down, but that is NOT by any stretch of the imagination a guy that can lift "a ton" or even close to it.
He's damn strong - easily. He's not even in the "worlds strongest man" competition in strength, though. Not when "big thugs" can take his shots and hit him harder in his own comics.
Just sayin' ...
Oh, for DC types with more Charisma - I can think of 2 immediately: Dick Grayson (acknowledged throughout the ENTIRE DCU for his charisma and leadership abilities - things Batman lacks), and Superman ... because he's Superman and everyone looks up to him for pretty much everything.
If you take Batman down, people get upset. If you take Superman down, the DCU's population loses all hope.
It's a difference of scale, IMO, for that particular one.
In a different system, probably hero system, he would cost around 1,000 points. He's simply too superhuman to properly be built, the man can lift a ton, giving him a 32-33 strength, this is unenhanced strength, and he is definitely not a barbarian.....except socially speaking.Wha!??!?!
Batman can NOT lift a ton ... at all. He's just a guy. Bane, all juiced up on Venom ... maybe. Not Batman, though. He's just a guy that fights other "just a guy" types out there, as thugs mind you, that he hits and they take it and turn around and hit him harder.
Yes, he ultimately takes those guys down, but that is NOT by any stretch of the imagination a guy that can life "a ton" or even close to it.
He's damn strong - easily. He's not even in the "worlds strongest man" competition in strength, though. Not when "big thugs" can take his shots and hit him harder in his own comics.
Just sayin' ...
Shows what you know. There are scenes of him all the way back in the silver age holding up a thing that weighs a literal ton, the bad guy was trying to crush him, and he really hasn't gotten any weaker. I wish I could find the page that has it. I'll ask my friend if he has a copy, if he does I'll post it, and make a link here.
Here:http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Strength_Scale , it's not 1 ton, but it is half a ton, which is still incredibly ridiculous, that's still Str 27, which you cannot get through normal means in Pathfinder, without being level 28, or using magic. Batman isn't tough enough to be level 28 in commoner, much less a real class, and he doesn't use magic.
Superman isn't a Mary Sue, here's the reason why: imagine being in his shoes, you have three options: 1)You can live on the extremely straight and narrow, protecting everyone you can, and accepting the blame for failing those people, because you aren't god. 2)You can be killed by the government as they start using Kryptonite everywhere. 3)You can leave Earth to go to the incredibly unforgiving cosmos and hope you don't run out of energy before you find another yellow sun.
Superman is the least free of the people in those books. Who would want to be in his shoes? No one.
Batman didn't inspire two of those Robins. Jason was a kid he basically stole off the streets, with the intention of turning into Robin. Tim realized that someone had to do something before Batman spiraled completely out of control when Jason died. That's not inspiration by any stretch of the imagination.
Tim was actually inspired by Nightwing, not Batman, he's a huge Nightwing-nerd.
Batman only inspired the Batgirls in that the first one took his name and aspects of his costume, Barbara Gordon was probably already going to go out to almost get herself killed on a regular basis anyway. Cassandra was only inspired, in that he showed her another way to use her abilities, and that the blood on her hands can be washed clean with her own blood. Stephanie had the Batgirl costume literally handed to her by Cassandra.
That's not much inspiration. Catwoman only helps Batman because she likes him and while she is a thief, she has morals of her own.
That link you posted as a reference is really very goofy. It alleges that Bruce is bench pressing 1000lbs in a particular panel, but upon examining that panel, there's no actual evidence that he is doing that.
The roof incident definitely showed him lifting 1,000 lbs. the bad guy even yelled that at him. That picture might not show it, but the later pictures in that issue do.
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He's a wealthy Sohei monk with a lot of equipment and high physical stats.
-- He's not a rogue/ninja because he does not sneak-attack or appear to lack base attack bonus. He is very perceptive/stealty. While he has many skills, he isn't omniscience and must routinely travel to and consult his immobile tome of all knowledge construct in a cavern under his house (so, figure 4sk/lvl+INT+human). He's pretty good with the martial-arts, but wears light armor and has a variety of weird figurines of wondrous power "mounts".
So, Sohei monk.
There are many ways to build batman, and since there are so many interpretations of the character of the years (see the alignment demotiviational) that all of them are pretty valid. In the end whatever combination of monk/rogue/inquisitor/alchemist you take, you're still just playing with numbers.
My personal opinion? Full monk. Nothing else is needed. Gadgets are bought and equipment is done by him. In the end the intelligent/charismatic part of batman is really the player's.
Batman isn't tough enough to be level 28 in commoner, much less a real class, and he doesn't use magic.
Commoner? Aristocrat, surely?
Batman isn't tough enough to be level 28 in commoner, much less a real class, and he doesn't use magic.Commoner? Aristocrat, surely?
A level 28 aristocrat can still probably survive a terminal velocity fall. Batman cannot, not without gear anyway.
Bats would just cape-slow it and aim for water :PA level 28 aristocrat can still probably survive a terminal velocity fall. Batman cannot, not without gear anyway.Batman isn't tough enough to be level 28 in commoner, much less a real class, and he doesn't use magic.Commoner? Aristocrat, surely?
That's what people call gear.
Level 10? Surely Rank 10?
Enjoy your terrible damage system. Every time the toughest guy in your group drops like a sack of potatoes, because he rolled a 1, think of me, and how I totally called it.
Level 10? Surely Rank 10?Enjoy your terrible damage system. Every time the toughest guy in your group drops like a sack of potatoes, because he rolled a 1, think of me, and how I totally called it.Huh?
I meant Rank 10 deity. Not sure what you are talking about...
Sigh... stupid Batgod. People wonder why I despise Morrison, there's a bloody good reason right there.
Huh...
OK, just a joke...
*backs away quietly*
What you call a joke a lot of people call "reality, in as much as comics are reality", comic book readers, and writers for that matter, consider Batman a literal god, if not -the- biblical god.
Suffice to say, those of us who know that Batman is just a normal dude, have to suffer through "Batman can beat anyone, if you give him 24 hours." coming up in every conversation involving any form of conflict. Suffice to say, this is nonsense, and if it wasn't, would make Batman less interesting to watch than Superman.
I really dont get the people who call batman a bard. He doesnt cast spells or have anything related to the kind of charm and illusion spells the bard is good at. He also doesnt perform. So where is the bard part?Adam West.
That is fair, the 60's tv show batman was definately a bard. I'll concede that. Hence the problem in stating up a character that has evolved rather drastically an spasmatically over almost a century.
Sohei monk (because I think that fits reallly well as pointed out above), 18 in all stats, +6 iterm (s) of all stats, Item (s) that adds +20 (at least) to all skill rolls, all skills are class skils, one shot magic item for teh gadgetry.
Batman has dozens of plans to take down nearly everyone in the DCU should the need arise, cue bad guys getting their hands on this...
In the spirit of doing this justice and falling within the rules of pathfinder as given, I've chosen to do my build with 2 modifications from the original: 1) I'm using 20 point buy. Yes Batman is very talented at many things, but he's not a supernatural being, he does the best with what he has. 2) I have added no items. The original question was to create Batman, not his gear. That could be an entirely separate debate, but it would be something along the lines of: cape of feather fall, belt of many pockets, grappling hook crossbow, cowl of hidden identity. We would have to agree upon a GP value for Bruce, since he clearly has more than average wealth for his level. If we can get a set GP amount, I'll go to it and I'll enjoy it at that. Alright, without further adieu, here's my interpretation
Bruce Wayne CR 9
Human Monk 4/Rogue 3/Inquisitor 3
LN M humanoid(human)
Init + 4 Senses perception + 14 vs traps +15
DEFENSE
AC 16 ; touch 16 , flatfooted 13 (+2 dex, +2 wisdom, +1 dodge, +1 monk)
hp 45 (10d8)
Fort + 6 Ref + 8 Will + 8 (+2 vs enchantment, fear)
evasion
trapfinding
trapsense +1
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.
Melee unarmed strike 10 ( d6+1 )
Ranged 9 ( )
flurry of blows
sneak attack +2d6
judgement 1/day
Spells
1st- 4/day alarm burst bonds wrath cause fear (DC 13)
orisons- (DC 12) brand, daze, detect poison, sift, light, acid splash
STATISTICS
Str 12 , Dex 14 , Con 10 , Int 16 , Wis 14 , Cha 14
Base Atk + 7 ; CMB + 9 ; CMD 20
Feats: improved unarmed strike, stunning fist, combat reflexes, improved grapple, 1 teamwork feat (variable) , weapon finesse
weapon focus(unarmed strike), combat expertise, dodge, mobility, improved disarm, dazzling display
Traits: Rich Parents, courageous
Languages Common, 8 others
SQ
Detect alignment at will
Deception subdomain power: Sudden Shift 5/day
SKILLS Ranks
acrobatics + 9 9
appraise + 0
bluff + 0
climb + 5 5
craft + 0
diplomacy + 0
disable device + 0
disguise + 9 9
escape artist + 9 9
fly + 0
handle animal + 0
heal + 0
intimidate + 9 9
knowledge +
arcana + 1 1
dungeoneer + 1 1
engineer + 1 1
geography + 1 1
history + 9 9
local + 9 9
nature + 1 1
nobility + 1 1
planes + 1 1
religion + 1 1
linguistics + 5 5
perception + 9 9
perform + 0
profession + 5 5
ride + 0
sense motive + 9 9
sleight of hand + 0
spellcraft + 0
stealth + 10 10
survival + 5 5
swim + 0
use mgc device + 0
Whoops, skills got lost in the transfer. Here they are again. Critiques?
armor check penalty 0
SKILLS Ranks Modifier
acrobatics + 14 9 2
appraise + 3 3
bluff + 2 2
climb + 9 5 1
craft + 3 3
diplomacy + 2 2
disable device + 2 2
disguise + 14 9 2
escape artist + 14 9 2
fly + 2 2
handle animal + 2 2
heal + 2 2
intimidate + 15 9 2
knowledge + (+2 from monster lore)
arcana + 9 1 3
dungeoneer + 9 1 3
engineer + 9 1 3
geography + 9 1 3
history + 17 9 3
local + 17 9 3
nature + 9 1 3
nobility + 9 1 3
planes + 9 1 3
religion + 9 1 3
linguistics + 11 5 3
perception + 14 9 2
perform + 2 2
profession + 10 5 2
ride + 2 2
sense motive + 15 9 2
sleight of hand + 2 2
spellcraft + 3 3
stealth + 15 10 2
survival + 11 5 2
swim + 1 1
use mgc device + 2 2
Batman has dozens of plans to take down nearly everyone in the DCU should the need arise, cue bad guys getting their hands on this...
Or the team idiot getting a hold of some other, also incredibly devastating, plans. He knew she rode the short bus to school (seriously, she made the formerly-mentally handicapped girl look like Tim, then again, Cass is oddly the most mature and stable of the lot, which is weird, that used to be Tim), why in the name of all that's good did he leave the plans out for her to take?
There are normal humans smarter than he is too. But I don't know of any normal human who has more social presence than he does.
His highest stat is definitely Int...there are normal humans stronger then he is
No true.
In the DCU, the only person smarter then Batman is Lex Luthor. Mr. Terrific comes in at #3, and the Joker is in the top ten as well.
There are normal people more specialized in specific subjects then Batman...but there's only one who is actually smarter.
I agree on social presence. It's just he's generally more intimidating then he is charming. He's still able to get the leader of the Teen Titans and the whole Justice League to do whatever he wants, better then anyone. His influence over heroes in the DCU is indeed broader then just about anyone else.
==Aelryinth
There are normal humans smarter than he is too. But I don't know of any normal human who has more social presence than he does.
His highest stat is definitely Int...there are normal humans stronger then he isNo true.
In the DCU, the only person smarter then Batman is Lex Luthor. Mr. Terrific comes in at #3, and the Joker is in the top ten as well.
There are normal people more specialized in specific subjects then Batman...but there's only one who is actually smarter.
I agree on social presence. It's just he's generally more intimidating then he is charming. He's still able to get the leader of the Teen Titans and the whole Justice League to do whatever he wants, better then anyone. His influence over heroes in the DCU is indeed broader then just about anyone else.
==Aelryinth
I disagree, Batman can be incredibly dumb sometimes, Lex is only good with technology, his plans stink, his policies on everything else are worse, and Martian Manhunter is smarter than all of them combined, he just doesn't play with technology.
I believe we should begin with establishing Batman's alignment.
Bravo.
Shows what you know.
Actually, it does.
Batman has been depicted many times through many years fighting big guys that are simply tougher and stronger than he is - quite a bit. These are guys like say, "Ubu" (I think - not sure) the right hand man of Ras and other big guys. In No Man's Land there was a story where he had to just fight a nameless "big guy" and that's pretty much typical of his whole career - he fights guys that are a LOT stronger than him, and tougher than him all the time. In the scene I'm thinking of, it's like a wrestling ring/boxing ring situation and Batman has to fight the big guy. He doesn't fight the guy like normal because he can't hit him hard enough, and he knows it. Instead, he out fights the guy and takes him apart with strategic body strikes. Why? To make up for his pointed LACK of strength, or rather - his lack of strength relative to THAT guy in order to just put him down. He's not strong enough to manage it.
Note: What I'm saying is a FAR cry from "Batman is a weakling" mind you. He's not. Not at all. He's not even *close* to super-human or anything of the sort if there are "just guys" waltzing around the Gotham Underworld that he knows he can not hurt with raw power alone. When Batman punches "Big Thug A" and that guy moves his head only, then back hands Batman and sends Batman sprawling, this establishes where his strength really is - he's below "Big Brawny Human" in strength levels. Those guys are stronger.
It doesn't matter, though, because Batman takes them down hard constantly by picking them apart.
:shrugs:
It's not an either/or proposition I'm suggesting. All I'm saying is that to insist that Batman has anything close to "super" strength, or can lift 1 ton is wrong.
He can (and is) be Strong and NOT be "the strongest ever" at the same time, and that's ok.
Insisting on crazy super-strength for him would then insist on crazy super-strength for "Big Thug A" types that have populated Batman's comics for years, and with comics too numerous to count that give evidence to what I'm talking about.
If you want to claim that 1 comic panel proves the point, I'll point to "extra effort" and use that as the extreme case and rule that is most likely in play in that panel of Batman holding up whatever it was you saw him holding up. It's not a routine thing for him, but he managed it (so his strength would be significantly less factoring in that kind of mechanic - which is pretty much exactly the type of situation that mechanic is meant to represent anyway).
I think the best bet for Batman is full Rogue with Feint constantly being used for all combat. Improved Feint is his BEST friend, because he then opens up w/a can of Whup-Ass (and damage die) on the target. Failing that, a Rogue/Monk, or Rogue/Fighter gestalt mix-up ... because just "rogue" alone is not a fair portrayal of his combat skills, IMO. At the same time ... it's 5 points of difference from Rogue to full BAB types, so it's not a tremendous loss. However, only the Rogue can support his outrageous skill levels.
There are as many versions of batman as there are people with opinions on the matter. He is whatever the writers say he is.
So I think the real question here, is since we're building a PF version of Batman, What city in Golarion would serve as Gotham?
Batman or any superhero for that matter is hard to build in a D20 system, because it just does not scale like that.
If I were to try and make the Batman in pathfinder it would probably go something like this.
Dex and Int probably in the low to mid 20's. The comics/cartons I have seen him in, he is extremely agile constantly dodging attacks or doing acrobatic stunts an olympic gymnist would be proud of. Many of his gadgets are of his own making, and appears to be educated in, if not an expert in just about every field of science.
Str and Con way above average. He can hold a grown man up with just 1 hand, but there are a lot of bad guys, even generic ones that outclass him in the strength department. He is also very durable, but can be beaten down, and/or be knocked out with various drugs/poisons.
Cha and Wis slightly above average. He can be personable as Bruce Wayne, but the hanger ons like him for his money. As the Batman he relies on props and psychology, but still has a pretty solid personality. He falls for to many traps and tricks to have a high wisdom score, and he would jump on darkseids back, and try and put him in choke hold after watching old red eyes just pancake superman through a wall.
As far as classes go, I would say pretty much everything has to be gesalt in order to get all the skills and abilites he needs without making him insanely high level.
Maybe...
Gesalt Ranger (Skirmisher)/Monk (Martial Artist) 8
Gesalt Alchemist/Artificer (4winds game one) 5, but no mutagen
Inquisitor 1 limited to spells that are swift actions
A belt that acts like a hewards haversack is a must.
Some kind of silenced chain mail to make up the costume.
@The Speaker in Dreams: it hasn't been like that in a very long time, the Batman you see in comics today can absolutely destroy those guys you mentioned in hand to hand. No nerve strikes, no fancy moves, no tools, just raw punch. The only guys that can kick Batman around like that are metahumans or augmenting themselves in one way or another.
With one exception: his adopted daughter can beat him like a drum, but she was raised to be the greatest fighter on Earth. Suffice to say, in all of comics she has 2 equals/superiors:Karate Kid (Val Amorr) who has a thousand years of martial arts advancement to back him up, and Captain America who, while he is augmented, doesn't need those augmentations to be awesome in general, much less martial arts. Karate Kid just knows more, they are probably equals physically. Captain America pretty much only wins because he never gets tired.
Typically when Batman is shown as you are describing him, he is very young, usually just starting up. Which that only comes up in the cartoons and movies.
So I think the real question here, is since we're building a PF version of Batman, What city in Golarion would serve as Gotham?
Egorian?