When they find a gem or jewelry definitely.
When else?
A DC 20 Appraise check determines the value of a common item.
I think it would be a little mean to make the PC appraise every mundane item they come across. Especially since those prices are listed in the equipment chapter of the CRB they bought.
But what about masterwork items?
Or magic items?
These are also either listed or calculable using the CRB. Although it could be a pain(especially if you don't know the CL and such.)
I think the post replies reflects how often it is used....
I actually hadn't thought about it, but I think it would depend upon the party, but this is how i'd do it (theoretically) - this assumes they take horde of goods to the shoppe:
1. Have on hand how much actual GP the stuff is worth, have the Shopkeep undercut them by some number, usually 50% or more.
2. Have the PC or PCs roll Appraise for the whole lot, depending on the roll is how much of total they think it's worth.
3. Then they can bicker with the owner on the sales price :). (Example: The goods are worth 1000 (100%), the shopkeep wants to give 300 (30%), but the party thinks they are worth 600 (60%) so they haggle a bit).
Particularly unique or interesting items should be rolled (and sold) separately using the same principles.
IMO, shopkeeps should always be attempting to make profit (like in Pawn Stars) and do *not* want to overpay.
I think the post replies reflects how often it is used....
Ya, that's what I got form searching for appraise on the messageboards.
It seems like they could either increse the specifisity of the skill or eliminate it and replace it with several other skills.
Both Craft and Knowledge make sense.
Even making it Use BAB for armor and weapons makes a little sense.
There is not a spellcraft equivalent for a fighter but there could be.
But until they make something official.
to me appraise is something you use in a shop when you are haggling prices or in a dungeon when your trying to figure out what's worth keeping and what's worth leaving behind.
Never, I don't demand or expect they take it because it is a bad skill.
A character can make an Appraise check as a 1-full-round action to determine that most valuable item in a treasure hoard. This could be good for the rogue to quick-swipe the best loot while the party is finishing up the battle.
Anytime they try to determine the value of something that isn't obvious. You can count coins, weigh metal bars, etc. Those don't require checks, just a bit of time (counting) or a scale. Determining the value of that gem, art object, or something else? Appraise check. If none of the party have the skill, they can pay someone to do it for them. Or they can just try to sell the item without knowing the price, but they'll have no clue if they are getting ripped off or not. (All my merchants have at least one rank in Appraise. Its part of their job, after all. Its just as important as their ranks in Craft or Profession.)
We never use it. Players just know the price of everything they find. It may be fun to roleplay selling/buying/haggling with merchants when you have just started roleplaying, but it´s boring as hell when you have done it X times and it takes a lot of time from the fun stuff.
So in my groups the skill is virtually non existant.
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Prices have always been an open book, in every edition of the game. Having the players know the usual price of anything is not a problem.
Problems arise from what you then do with that information.
In the old days, it was quite clear that any loot was 'worth' whatever the PCs could persuade someone to pay for it, just like in real life.
Thus, having an appraisal/bargaining skill would pay.
In 3.0 onwards, it was set out as a RULE that everything could always sold for half price, and bought for full.
Thus, any GM attempting to alter prices to reflect some kind of in-game boom or slump, shortage or glut, would get beaten over the head with the RAW.
Add to that, the WBL assumptions, and altering the final yield from fencing the loot is simply more trouble than it's worth, since even if the GM did persuade the players to accept that they could only sell that cart full of Resource X for less than 50% of book value, they would point at the WBL, scream that they were now below the OBLIGATORY wealth level, and the GM HAD to make up the difference.
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IMO, Appraise has been castrated, by having much of the negotiation elements taken from it and assumed to be part of Diplomacy.
IE, you see a lot of "I roll Diplomacy <roll> Oh yeah! 38!"
"The merchant sells you the stuff for a fraction of its value."
Roll that aspect back into Appraise, and you make that skill more attractive, plus anything that reduces the ubiquitous and egregious spamming of Diplomacy can't be bad.
I kind of think this should have been eliminated along with Use Rope. It's in the trash heap of skills I've eliminated from the game in my house rules.
I think the Qadira faction is what kept Appraise around, since it is a national profession like being a notary.
Prices have always been an open book, in every edition of the game.
I think Appraise is most used for the party to determine the value of gems, jewelry and art objects (which have no specific descriptions in the books). GM roles up treasure hoard and has a handful of these items. Party finds hoard and makes Appraise check for each one to jot down "75 gp gem" and "1,000 gp piece of art".
IMO, Appraise has been castrated, by having much of the negotiation elements taken from it and assumed to be part of Diplomacy.
IE, you see a lot of "I roll Diplomacy <roll> Oh yeah! 38!"
"The merchant sells you the stuff for a fraction of its value."Roll that aspect back into Appraise, and you make that skill more attractive, plus anything that reduces the ubiquitous and egregious spamming of Diplomacy can't be bad.
Appraise has been castrated by most people not wanting to sit and regale one another and waste valuable game time in haggling.
I've never seen appraise have it's stuff stolen from diplomacy because nobody wanted to do any of the appraise stuff in the first place.
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In my games, characters roll appraise for art objects that have some sort of complicating factor.
How valuable is that masterpiece with a stained corner? Appraise.
If the party wants to hire someone to restore a damaged art object--How much would it cost to hire someone to fix it, and how valuable would the object be then? Appraise.
How valuable is that tiny figurine of Findeladlara that dates from before the Retreat? Appraise.
A good appraise roll also lets the party know how much more they could get if they chose a buyer wisely. The result may be "This figurine would be worth about 50gp if you just sold it to any old art dealer, but if you sell it elves who are interested in the history of their people, you could probably fetch up to 300gp for it."
For straightforward cases, I don't bother with appraise.
We never use it. Players just know the price of everything they find. It may be fun to roleplay selling/buying/haggling with merchants when you have just started roleplaying, but it´s boring as hell when you have done it X times and it takes a lot of time from the fun stuff.
So in my groups the skill is virtually non existant.
Same here.
In my games, I let the party keep track of their inventory. If I used appraise checks, they would have to mark on their inventory something like, "Large ruby from third side passage of kobold caverns, estimated value 200gp", and when they went to town to sell it I would have to look up its real value in some giant list, "Was that side passage room B12 or room B14? Both had rubies." It is much more convenient to tell them that they found a large ruby worth 250gp.
However, a sorcerer from Taldor who fancies himself both an aristocrat and a businessman has just joined the party. The player told me that his character plans to invest heavily in the growing town of Sandpoint in Varisia (we are playing the Rise of the Runelords adventure path) and has already started negotiations with some NPCs there. And he has taken ranks in Appraise to aid those business endeavors.
I would like to join in on Karlgamer's query and ask for any good ways that I can let that player make good use of his character's Appraise skill for handling investments? House rules are fine. The player is an accountant and I am a mathematician, so we can understand real accounting principles.
It is interesting to see how much people dislike Appraise. A lot of folks I've played with have had similar feelings about the Identify spell or even Pathfinder's Spellcraft checks to identify magic items. I've had players flat out demand that I tell them what a magic item was without any checks or spells. I guess that's a subject for another thread though.
There's no reason why using the Appraise skill needs to involve the roleplay of haggling (unless your group would enjoy that). If the PCs do a bad job with Appraise I usually just lower the value of the treasure. Like if there's a 1,000gp gem but nobody succeeds on the check I might tell the party that the gem is worth 800gp. Once the player writing down treasure records the gem as 800gp there's no need for haggling or further follow up.
Another thing I'll use Appraise for is letting the PCs notice that something is treasure in the first place. A PC trained in Appraise might notice that a book on a shelf is a rare tome worth 50gp to collectors or that a cabinet or table is made of darkwood and has pieces large enough to be converted to bucklers.
The skill is only useful if the DM makes it useful though. If you're going to point out every treasure to the players and tell them the correct value of each one then the Appraise skill really is useless, and you might want to warn players not to waste skill points on it. Of course somebody might want to play a shrewd merchant or thief anyhow, but I guess then it would just be a matter of roleplay.
@mathmuse: There is a feat doing something similar, letting you invst in a market and you then can weekly check and get some moneay out of it, but its restricted so it doesn´t disturb average wealth per level numbers.
We had some situation where invisible oponents dropped gear and you could hear the "bling", for me a clear use of appraise to know wether its something worth searching for or not, like is it a ring of which metal?
Our GM made it an intelligence check though, not to my liking.
Appraise can also check if some character wears real or fake jewelery and stuff like that. No perception check there :)
I like Devilkillers solution too. Just running around and knowing everything is cheesy. A high magic world doesn´t mean anyone knows anything, especially not the party, but neither all the folk on the countryside. Appraise can also partly substitute for Knowledge (whatever)if its to do with some objects.
I guess appraise for haggling only makes sense if you play restricted resources, if you have to search for certain magic items and cannot just access it anywhere, like it is actually in the rules ( only with diplomacy if i remeber right)
I will keep appraise only for Jewelry, art and stuff. I've been thinking about it and Kingmaker has a lot of appraiseable items which means it would be used more then most skills throughout the course of the game.
Now I need to find a good fraction of the price I should make standard for people buying Jewelry, art and stuff. Its understandable that it's half for basic equipment because it has a faster turnaround. I was thinking half of the lowest price for that Quality of gem or artwork(as mentioned in the gamemastering section of the CRB)
The problem now is that I have to put all of the wrongly appraised prices lower then the price of the item. For two main reason:
- I want the players to be able to sell items without me being there.
- Players would assume that if they couldn't sell it at the price they appraised it for they appraised it wrong.
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There's no reason why using the Appraise skill needs to involve the roleplay of haggling (unless your group would enjoy that).
Of course, you can just take what the "honest" merchant offers you.
In our game, we have been rolling opposed Appraise checks when trying to buy items in limited supply locales. Win and you save some coin, lose and it may cost you more than you would like to pay. Obviously merchants tend to have decent Appraise skills, so it won't always go the party's way.
This is also a great example.