Currently, I am creating a campaign and have some questions about a villian I'm creating.
A half fiend orc 3rd level barbarian (lesser fiend totem) and 5 levels fighter utilizing his natural attacks when raging (gore, claw, claw, bite).
Are his Attacks: gore, bite, claw, claw or gore, bite, claw, claw & two additional claws from his class attack bonuses?
Gore is from the totem which is a primary
Claw, claw, bite is from the half fiend template which is primary
Thanks!
You can't use the same limb for multiple attacks, and assuming the claws are on your hands your attack routine is: Claw, Claw, Bite, Gore.
However, I believe if you take Improved Unarmed Strike, you could work a pair of kicks into that mix. This may (or may not depending on rules interpretations, I'm not sure what RAW is) make all your natural weapons "secondary" and so you'd really want multi-attack to help out with that.
Natural attacks do not gain iteratives from high BAB, so you would just have one attack from each natural weapon listed.
From the Combat chapter of the Core Rulebook. Emphasis mine.
Quote: Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.
Mauril wrote: Natural attacks do not gain iteratives from high BAB, so you would just have one attack from each natural weapon listed.
From the Combat chapter of the Core Rulebook. Emphasis mine.
Quote: Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.
Ahhh, thanks. With that being said, if I have multiple attacks I only receive my strength bonus not one and a half. Additionally, this would affect the damage output of power attack
Correct. Natural attacks are considered one-handed attacks for the purpose of Power Attack unless they are a primary natural attack adding 1-1/2 strength modifier to damage. A dragon's bite attack, for example, always adds the 1-1/2 strength modifier to damage, regardless of how many attacks they gain.
Also, remember that if you want to give your half-orc fightbarian a manufactured weapon, he still gets his iterative attacks with it. He can use almost all of his natural attacks still, but they become secondary attacks (Full attack bonus -5, 1/2 strength modifier to damage). Giving him a longsword gives him the following attack routine:
Longsword +8, Longsword +3, Gore +3, Bite +3, Claw +3
The longsword attacks would get 1x strength mod to damage, the natural attacks would get 0.5x strength mod to damage.
Mauril wrote: Giving him a longsword gives him the following attack routine:
Longsword +8, Longsword +3, Gore +3, Bite +3, Claw +3
The longsword attacks would get 1x strength mod to damage, the natural attacks would get 0.5x strength mod to damage.
Hmm... if I slap on the Multiattack Feat, I should be able to up this to Longsword+8/+3, Gore+6, Bite+6, Claw+6, right?
Midnight_Angel wrote:
Hmm... if I slap on the Multiattack Feat, I should be able to up this to Longsword+8/+3, Gore+6, Bite+6, Claw+6, right?
Correct.
Midnight_Angel wrote: Mauril wrote: Giving him a longsword gives him the following attack routine:
Longsword +8, Longsword +3, Gore +3, Bite +3, Claw +3
The longsword attacks would get 1x strength mod to damage, the natural attacks would get 0.5x strength mod to damage.
Hmm... if I slap on the Multiattack Feat, I should be able to up this to Longsword+8/+3, Gore+6, Bite+6, Claw+6, right?
Don't gore and bite use the same limb, your head?
Artanthos wrote: Don't gore and bite use the same limb, your head? Two-headed orc fiend? >.>
Artanthos wrote: Midnight_Angel wrote: Mauril wrote: Giving him a longsword gives him the following attack routine:
Longsword +8, Longsword +3, Gore +3, Bite +3, Claw +3
The longsword attacks would get 1x strength mod to damage, the natural attacks would get 0.5x strength mod to damage.
Hmm... if I slap on the Multiattack Feat, I should be able to up this to Longsword+8/+3, Gore+6, Bite+6, Claw+6, right?
Don't gore and bite use the same limb, your head? You are allowed to make a bite and a gore, see the Gargoyle's full attack statistics in the Bestiary. It only has one head, but its melee entry uses both attacks. If you had to choose between them, it would put the word "or" between them to emphasize this.
The rule there is (I'm guessing) distinguishing between the muscles in your jaw performing the bite from the muscle groups performing the gore. Yes yes, some of those muscles can also be logically applied to the bite as well, by swinging your head to get extra torque and whatnot... but hey, PF can't factor every piece of logic into a game rule.
That is an ability of a specific creature, not a general rule.
Specific overrides general for that creature, it does not replace the general for all creatures.
Artanthos wrote: That is an ability of a specific creature, not a general rule.
Specific overrides general for that creature, it does not replace the general for all creatures.
Problem 1) Specific overrides have sections where they actually state they are specific overrides, something the Gargoyle lacks. Usually something in the special ability section, or a carefully selected feat. Looked over the Gargoyle statistics, none such ability exists (nor does it exist anywhere in the bestiary, for that matter), and none of its feats give any special exceptions. So what are you basing the concept of this invisible exception on? Just your own assumption? That's not enough to put a rule to.
Problem 2) It's not a general rule if its not in the rules. We know you can make slam attacks from arms and claw attacks from arms, BUT we also know you cannot use the same set of arms for both. We've seen multiple precedents for this as well. Have you ever seen a precedent for bites and gores being mutually exclusive? I sure haven't, as every creature I see that has both, uses both. Would love for you to find me one, though. Essentially, you're assuming that the head is the operative limb for both attacks, but there is nothing to substantiate this claim. It can make sense from the application of certain logic, but this alone doesn't substantiate a game rule. It's also perfectly logical to associate both actions to entirely different groups of muscles for that matter. -shrugs-
I'd say its pretty fair to continue assuming that bites and gores can coexist perfectly fine -- as that's the only conclusion with a clearly noticeable precedent.
Mauril wrote: Correct. Natural attacks are considered one-handed attacks for the purpose of Power Attack unless they are a primary natural attack adding 1-1/2 strength modifier to damage. A dragon's bite attack, for example, always adds the 1-1/2 strength modifier to damage, regardless of how many attacks they gain.
That is not correct.
Primary weapons get x1 strength damage, but if they are the only weapon they get x1.5 strength damage. The dragon is the exception to the rule. If you look at a tiger or lion you will see they only get x1.
concerro wrote: Mauril wrote: Correct. Natural attacks are considered one-handed attacks for the purpose of Power Attack unless they are a primary natural attack adding 1-1/2 strength modifier to damage. A dragon's bite attack, for example, always adds the 1-1/2 strength modifier to damage, regardless of how many attacks they gain.
That is not correct.
Primary weapons get x1 strength damage, but if they are the only weapon they get x1.5 strength damage. The dragon is the exception to the rule. If you look at a tiger or lion you will see they only get x1. Read his post again. You said the same thing he said, but called him wrong for saying it.
Kazejin wrote: concerro wrote: Mauril wrote: Correct. Natural attacks are considered one-handed attacks for the purpose of Power Attack unless they are a primary natural attack adding 1-1/2 strength modifier to damage. A dragon's bite attack, for example, always adds the 1-1/2 strength modifier to damage, regardless of how many attacks they gain.
That is not correct.
Primary weapons get x1 strength damage, but if they are the only weapon they get x1.5 strength damage. The dragon is the exception to the rule. If you look at a tiger or lion you will see they only get x1. Read his post again. You said the same thing he said, but called him wrong for saying it. I don't see the x1 comment anywhere in his post.
concerro wrote: I don't see the x1 comment anywhere in his post. What did you imagine the "one-handed attack for the purpose of Power Attack" line meant? One-handed attacks (from the main hand) get x1 strength by default.
The only thing he didn't elaborate on, is that when you only have a single natural attack that it gets 1.5x strength instead. However, he already stated "unless they are a primary attack that adds 1.5x strength," meaning that if the primary attack adds 1.5x strength then that's how it counts for Power Attack. He covered the bases well enough; I think you're misreading the emphasis.
Kazejin wrote: concerro wrote: I don't see the x1 comment anywhere in his post. What did you imagine the "one-handed attack for the purpose of Power Attack" line meant? One-handed attacks (from the main hand) get x1 strength by default. The part that is wrong is "unless they are a primary attack . . ." To be correct that should be "unless they are the only attack. . ."
Kazejin wrote: concerro wrote: I don't see the x1 comment anywhere in his post. What did you imagine the "one-handed attack for the purpose of Power Attack" line meant? One-handed attacks (from the main hand) get x1 strength by default.
The only thing he didn't elaborate on, is that when you only have a single natural attack that it gets 1.5x strength instead. However, he already stated "unless they are a primary attack that adds 1.5x strength," meaning that if the primary attack adds 1.5x strength then that's how it counts for Power Attack. He covered the bases well enough; I think you're misreading the emphasis. One-handed attacks refer to manufactured weapons which I am not disputing.
Primary attacks(natural attacks) don't get 1.5x unless they are the only weapon. He only said the primary attack gets 1.5x which as written is incorrect.
concerro wrote: One-handed attacks refer to manufactured weapons which I am not disputing.
Primary attacks(natural attacks) don't get 1.5x unless they are the only weapon. He only said the primary attack gets 1.5x which as written is incorrect.
You're reading his emphasis wrong. He didn't say all primary attacks get 1.5x strength. He said that they only get 1x strength unless the primary attack is a special case, the special case being if they do get 1.5x strength for whatever reason.
His post could stand a grammatical improvement to make this more clear, but he said it right... just awkwardly. Try changing the emphasis a bit when you read it.
Kazejin wrote: concerro wrote: One-handed attacks refer to manufactured weapons which I am not disputing.
Primary attacks(natural attacks) don't get 1.5x unless they are the only weapon. He only said the primary attack gets 1.5x which as written is incorrect.
You're reading his emphasis wrong. He didn't say all primary attacks get 1.5x strength. He said that they only get 1x strength unless the primary attack is a special case, the special case being if they do get 1.5x strength for whatever reason.
His post could stand a grammatical improvement to make this more clear, but he said it right... just awkwardly. Try changing the emphasis a bit when you read it. OK. After reading it again I see he was correct.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Artanthos wrote: That is an ability of a specific creature, not a general rule.
Specific overrides general for that creature, it does not replace the general for all creatures.
Can you point out some creatures with a bite and gore attack where they are not both listed on the full attack line. Every instance I can find where a creature has both, the creature uses both during a full attack.
Also, I'd go so far as to say a Bite attack takes up the mouth limb rather than the head limb. As there several creatures with bite attacks and no heads. And creatures with multiple bite attacks and not multiple heads ala the Flytrap or others.
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