One of my Pathfinder groups just finished a chapter in Rise of the Rune Lords, and after...
Orik will henceforth be known as Bob in this post so more spoiler tags aren't needed.
The plan that I came up with, and that the group agreed upon, was that we would name "Bob" castellan of the castle to rule/manage in our stead. We agreed upon his salary of 5sp/day and worked out to hire some NPC's from the nearby town to clean up the castle, make repairs, adjust the furniture, and help guard the place.
Obviously, everything with the exception of the guards are short-term investments (cleanup crews will be a one-time fee, guards are recurring), but my idea is to convert part of the castle into an inn, as it is strategically located between two towns. So we'll of course have to hire on some NPC's to be maids/cooks and do some more renovations.
Here's the main question... Can anyone think of a way to calculate how much business the inn would pull in so we can determine if our castle can be self-sustaining without us feeding more money into it regularly?
I would point your GM towards the Pathfinder Society Field Guide Page 60. There is a section in there about Vanities that characters can purchase through spending Prestige Points, or earn as rewards as part of an adventure. It has some guidelines for what perks owning a tavern has, or what benefits there are to owning a shop in an area.
It does not have rules for businesses generating X amount of coin a week or month or year or any such thing. The whole idea is that whatever the characters own or buy produces just about enough profit to sustain it's self, but having such vanities produce other bonuses like..... a free place to stay, a bonus to Local Knowledge rolls, a bonus to Diplomacy checks in the area, etc....
Usually the income is determined by profession-skill rolls, in this case inkeeper, which is propably not Bobs strong point.
Anyways, i don´t think even a well-doing inn can support a castle with soldiers, unless you get creative. I´d guess you need at least 20 guards, to defend the castle and watch-rotations.
I´d say you also need more mundane support/economy/income, like some crops, livestock, a smithy.
Handwave it. Enough profit is made to maintain the fort and provide you a base of operations. Some petty cash perhaps, but not much extra.
Usually the income is determined by profession-skill rolls, in this case inkeeper, which is propably not Bobs strong point.
Anyways, i don´t think even a well-doing inn can support a castle with soldiers, unless you get creative. I´d guess you need at least 20 guards, to defend the castle and watch-rotations.I´d say you also need more mundane support/economy/income, like some crops, livestock, a smithy.
Well it's not a huge castle/fort...
It already has a courtyard with a small stable area, so livestock/crops could be kept in there (good idea on the crops/livestock). It also has a workshop that could easily be converted into a smithy.
There's only one point of ingress to the structure, unless the enemies decided to scale a rather high and steep cliff with a raging river at the bottom. I would think that 4 guards in the two forward watchtowers could easily shred most enemies before they even finish crossing the bridge to get to the main gate (which we're paying to reinforce).
VERY good idea on using profession checks to determine income. That's definitely something to consider. I'll talk to my DM about finding an NPC with Profession:Innkeep and see about getting bonuses to the Profession check due to location and reknown.
An inn is all about location. If this is the fortification I remember from Rise of the Rune Lords, travelers and trade almost all go through the villages farther downstream, so your inn would be relying on locals who've come up to visit the fort and the occasional forester or ogre-hunter. It's still a good idea (brings in adventure hooks), but you can probably expect it to operate at a loss.
See spoiler:
We will of course add other NPC's to the fort to make it more lively as funds and NPC's become available.
Handwave it. Enough profit is made to maintain the fort and provide you a base of operations. Some petty cash perhaps, but not much extra.
I think I like this idea the best, haha...
Definitely handwave it. +1
Yeah - easiest way to avoid a ton of prep work is to roll 1d6-3 and multiply it by 50, then have 'Bob' either hand that number of gp to the PCs or explain (if it was a negative number) that they're in the red this month and need that much from the PCs.
Where did you come up with that formula?
There are rules for businesses in the D&D 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide II. those might help you.
Edit: Ninja'd!
The Stronghold Builder's Guidebook might help you determine how much setting the castle up might cost as well as other issues you might run into, as well.
3.x had a couple optional rules that might work well. The first option is that the castle will produce a yearly income of 1% of its value. This doesn't include staff for the castle itself though. (It does include staff for the income source to run though).
The second is the 3.5 DMG II had a section on running a business.
I'm looking into this now, I found the section you are referring to.
So we have a few options:
1. Handwave it. Assume that the business makes enough to break even.
2. Use Profession checks with an NPC innkeeper.
3. Have the castle produce 1% of its value (we'll have to calculate the value of the castle).
4. Follow 3.5 rules on running a business in DMG II.
... Here's the main question... Can anyone think of a way to calculate how much business the inn would pull in so we can determine if our castle can be self-sustaining without us feeding more money into it regularly?
There is really no way an Inn can support a castle and troops. If you want to look at real life it took a heck of alot of peasants and middle class to support even minor castles and their troops. Now we're talking a magic infused society so it's kinda hard to judge what effect that would have, but you could say they are more productive per person.
However, if you're Inn is at a critical crossroads and strategically located so it is always packed to the eaves it might come close. But then you get competition. If your in can support a castle, someone else will open a competing Inn that is only supporting an Inn and can under cut your prices quite a bit while still providing better service.
A traditional way for a castle to get more income is the protection racket. Also known as taxes, tolls, and tariffs for the guarding the locals and travelers.
If you are not getting into local governance, a castle almost has to be a pretty big money sink.
{Also consider, an Inn inside your castle makes an easy way for enemies to infiltrate your set-up.}
Finally as many others have said, just handwave it. Unless the GM wants to use it as a cause for further ops. Most GM/groups I know would just use pulled out of the air number like 'It costs you an additional 175 gps each month in upkeep. Now on to the next adventure.'
+1 to Handwave it.
If you really want to roll play this I would suggest that you make your castle or fort important to the local area.
Perhaps you can make it a trading post. Why travel to the next city when you can swap items here?
Or maybe you want to generate revenue by holding tournaments or building an attraction that will draw people to you.
You could make your fort into a local headquarters for an adventuring guild (with membership fees of course)
Or maybe you want set up a tariff/toll/taxes for passing through your lands.
Depending on your alignment you may even have a deal with the local orge/goblin/orc tribes that gives them free license to attack anyone who tries not to pay your toll.
really the possibilities are endless you just need a Dm who can work on the fly.
Profession Skill's rules for earning income seems a good fit too, Profession (Innkeeper).
I hate to break it to you, but unless your DM has monkeyed with the geography for your campaign, then this place is north of town, not south, and would only get business between SP and Windsong Abbey. That is: not much. Plus it's still in rough territory, not exactly in a good spot for business.
I hate to break it to you, but unless your DM has monkeyed with the geography for your campaign, then this place is north of town, not south, and would only get business between SP and Windsong Abbey. That is: not much. Plus it's still in rough territory, not exactly in a good spot for business.
Hm... are you sure? :-/ Well if that's the case, perhaps we can gain revenue from housing armed forces from Sandpoint and Magnimar (if we can convince them to station troops up there to help protect against other northern Goblin threats).
I'll talk to my DM and get his input on how much we want to put into this for now. If he wants something to fill gaps between modules then it could be useful, but if there aren't any lulls in the RotRL campaign then this may be unneeded micromanagement.
Actually, the third Volume of Rise of the Runelords, The Hook Mountain Massacre, has some advice on the subject of owning a keep. Not even close to exhaustive, but it's likely something you're DM already has, so...
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I hate to break it to you, but unless your DM has monkeyed with the geography for your campaign, then this place is north of town, not south, and would only get business between SP and Windsong Abbey. That is: not much. Plus it's still in rough territory, not exactly in a good spot for business.
I was going to say this.
In our game they also wanted to keep it as a fort. It became an attraction for Broderk and similar archeologists (consider what it actually is...) and we agreed it "broke even".
So effectively a handwave, but it came into play later.
Yes, zombie thread here. But I was curious if anyone had calculated the gp value of this Thistletop keep for the purpose of simply selling it. Squatter's rights and all that.
Thanks.
We agreed upon his salary of 5sp/day [for "Bob"]
This salary is incredibly low. You pulled a nice one over on your DM there. The books have increased ranges of hireling salaries: Doctors for 1 gp/day and Sages for 15 gp/day are two examples. Governors of Castles are not one of the noted examples with predetermined hiring price, but I would bet they would get paid more than a doctor.
Here's the main question... Can anyone think of a way to calculate how much business the inn would pull in so we can determine if our castle can be self-sustaining without us feeding more money into it regularly?
Lodging
Item Price SourceInn stay, good (per night) 2 gp CRB
Inn stay, common (per night) 5 sp CRB
Inn stay, poor (per night) 2 sp CRB
Inn suite, small 4 gp UE
Inn suite, average 16 gp UE
Inn suite, luxurious 32 gp+ UE
Try using the downtime rules for rooms, buildings, and "teams" from Ultimate Campaign.
Basically, teams and buildings pay for themselves and don't need to be paid.
Since the place is already built, you don't have to pay to build it although the DM may require you to earn some "influence" (and pay for it) since the rules assume that unless you specifically populate buildings with teams they have basic workers and redetermine the use of some rooms to make an inn.
From the downtime section for rooms and teams:
Earnings: This entry indicates what bonuses the room or team gives to its building's or organization's checks made to generate capital. Buildings and organizations act like characters in that they can attempt a check each day to earn capital performing skilled work (without costing you any downtime). You must pay for capital earned in this way as normal.
Basically, roll 1d20 or take 10 and then add the building's bonuses for generating gp (look up all the rooms and their functions and add up the earnings value for gold piece and divide by 10, gives gp with the remainder in silver.
Here is an example of the rooms in a fort:
FORT
Create 136 Goods, 25 Influence, 124 Labor, 1 Magic (6,050 gp)
Rooms 2 Armories, 1 Bedroom, 2 Bunks, 1 Cell, 1 Common Room, 1 Courtyard, 3 Defensive Walls, 1 Dojo, 2 Fortifications (in the Common Room and Gatehouse), 1 Gatehouse, 1 Infirmary, 1 Kitchen, 1 Lavatory, 1 Office, 1 Storage, 1 War Room
A fortified outpost for bandits, mercenaries, soldiers, or dangerous humanoids.
Here is a list of what a particular room from the above costs and generates:
BUNKS
Earnings gp or Labor +8
Create 7 Goods, 4 Influence, 7 Labor (400 gp); Time 24 days
Size 15—35 squares
Upgrades To Lodging
Bunks provide housing and limited storage for up to 10 people. Though hardly private, this space typically includes beds or cots, linens, small chests with poor locks, and chamber pots. If this room is part of an Inn, the building is more of a flophouse or hostel than a traveler's hotel, which would have private rooms. If part of a Hospital, this room houses patients.
So, two bunks (+8 each) and taking 10 will give a check of 26, or 2 gp and 1 sp per day.
Note: There are also rules for having profit factors go down if a character doesn't personally attend/visit it on a regular basis and eventually a business dispersing or deciding to run itself. I think those become kind of laborious and take the fun away though. You can probably get them hand-waved by the GM.
Here is a link to the downtime section of the tPRD from Ultimate Campaign
Second darkness has you running a gambling hall and it too is based on dice rolls of profession of the innkeeper though the pcs can do various rolls to help, it keeps track of the profitability of te place on a scale which then effects the monthly take. It is in the first book, you might want to look there