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I'm playing a Paladin with the Combat Reflexes feat. I'm taking advantage of reach weapons (currently with a Lucerne Hammer), but I know that as my damage increases the 1d12 x2 will be a lot less impressive than a 1d10 with a better crit. Lo and behold I find the Horsechopper, but I'm worried that if my Paladin uses a weapon styled by goblins, there will be more than a few questioning glances.
The reasons I like the Horsechopper are many: It's a reach weapon, and that's of paramount importance to me. It's also high damage; 1d10 is more than acceptable, and only the Lucerne Hammer beats it. It's got a higher than x2 crit multiplier (although I would prefer a 19-20/x2), and lastly it has the trip feature, which has excellent synergy with Combat Reflexes, reach, and the fact that I plan to be enlarged whenever possible. I want to be able to attack the enemy, trip him as he approaches, attack him as he gets up, attack him on my turn, and then 5-foot step away to do it all over again. A reach weapon with the trip feature also makes having improved trip far less necessary, which is good because I went with merely 10 intellect.
Any advice? I know the Guisarme is also available, but to take a weapon with less damage and otherwise similar stats would be hard for me to stomach. This character is for PFS, by the way.
Make it a part of your back story. Perhaps explain that the weapon was crafted for you by a goblin tribe you saved that was trying to live peacefully before being forcefully exterminated by the local town trying to remove a percieved nuisance. Something like that. It can work and can make for an interesting character besides.
Where would you get a medium one is one question. What deity do you worship is another if you work in it is recycled for something like Eratsil that you should not go through the hastle of making a new weapon just becuase it is new when an older one is just as good or better. It is recycling in a sense.
Make it a part of your back story. Perhaps explain that the weapon was crafted for you by a goblin tribe you saved that was trying to live peacefully before being forcefully exterminated by the local town trying to remove a percieved nuisance. Something like that. It can work and can make for an interesting character besides.
TarkXT is on to something here. You could be a great defender of the weak. What's weaker than a tribe of goblins barely scraping by? A point of two in linguistics to get Goblin as a language, some good backstory as to how you saved them and I'd let it fly.
Though I may have issue with what is traditionally a small weapon being scaled up to medium size. Who knows? Maybe it was a ceremonial gift from the tribe? Makes a good excuse for something of usually poor goblin make to actually be masterwork.
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I want to be able to attack the enemy, trip him as he approaches, attack him as he gets up, attack him on my turn, and then 5-foot step away to do it all over again.
If you FFS away, he can do the same to close the range without provoking an AoO. You'll have to keep tripping him on your turn and only get the AoO when he stands up.
1) They *cough cough* clarified the trip weapon quality so that its only ability is to let you drop it to avoid being tripped. Everything can let you trip now, even longspears. That may affect your decision.
2) Your character could have got his start as a young man defending his village from a Goblin attack. The horsechopper wasn't an ideal weapon, but it was better than the hoe handle you started the fight with. You just got used to using it.
3) There are so many funky "weapon on a stick" polearms anyway that it would probably take someone with knowledge: Local to recognize the thing for what it is. Seriously you could probably duct tape a halfling on the end of a pole , show up for a phalanx and get booed as a copy cat.
3) There are so many funky "weapon on a stick" polearms anyway that it would probably take someone with knowledge: Local to recognize the thing for what it is. Seriously you could probably duct tape a halfling on the end of a pole , show up for a phalanx and get booed as a copy cat.
Dude, those Rogues on a stick are deadly! You swing one over the enemies head, and boom, automatic flanking and your weapon gets sneak attack bonus damage.
3) There are so many funky "weapon on a stick" polearms anyway that it would probably take someone with knowledge: Local to recognize the thing for what it is. Seriously you could probably duct tape a halfling on the end of a pole , show up for a phalanx and get booed as a copy cat.
Don't laugh someoen actually did this in one of my groups when the halfling claimed he could find traps. Twas not a good day for the halfling to be batted against walls and floors to set off traps.
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Not sold yet? I'll tell you what: If you buy now, I'll have my neighbor custom engrave the blade. He's a crackerjack dwarf silversmith who normally charges outrageous fees, but I can set up the whole thing for only 13 gold pieces!
Do we have a deal? Take it or leave it!
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I want to be able to attack the enemy, trip him as he approaches, attack him as he gets up, attack him on my turn, and then 5-foot step away to do it all over again.If you FFS away, he can do the same to close the range without provoking an AoO. You'll have to keep tripping him on your turn and only get the AoO when he stands up.
They'll only be able to do that if they have a reach weapon as well, otherwise they have to move more than 5 ft. to get up to me.
Thanks to everyone else for the answers. I suppose I will go with fighting goblins and admiring a superior design of weapon. He is a Paladin of Abadar, but I won't let that effect my weapon choice because... crossbows.
BigNorseWolf: Really? I thought the argument was you could trip while holding a longsword, but the longsword would not actually be used for the attempt. I'd have a hard time believing a longspear trip attempt. Would it be possible to post the thread where this is discussed?
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Dude, those Rogues on a stick are deadly! You swing one over the enemies head, and boom, automatic flanking and your weapon gets sneak attack bonus damage.
3) There are so many funky "weapon on a stick" polearms anyway that it would probably take someone with knowledge: Local to recognize the thing for what it is. Seriously you could probably duct tape a halfling on the end of a pole , show up for a phalanx and get booed as a copy cat.
I seem to recall the wizard from Order of the Stick doing this once, but I believe the small sized rogue that was magically brainwashed, carried around, and used as a weapon was a kobold, not a halfling.
I like the idea of building the weapon into your back story. But instead of saying you aided the goblins, I'd say you fought against them, since that makes more sense. You learned from the experience of facing their deadly tactics of a type you'd never seen before, so you chose to copy those tactics against your own foes. Paladins are honorable, not stupid - if someone comes along with a good idea, they'll use it, just like anyone else, as long as it's not blatantly cheap and dishonorable, like poison or sneak attacks.
You can even role play a disdainful tone of voice when you tell people that the goblins refer to this type of weapon as a "horse chopper" in their own language. Make it a topic of conversation when you try to get people to help you come up with a more suitable name for such a weapon when it's employed in "civilized combat".
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Dude, those Rogues on a stick are deadly! You swing one over the enemies head, and boom, automatic flanking and your weapon gets sneak attack bonus damage.
3) There are so many funky "weapon on a stick" polearms anyway that it would probably take someone with knowledge: Local to recognize the thing for what it is. Seriously you could probably duct tape a halfling on the end of a pole , show up for a phalanx and get booed as a copy cat.
I seem to recall the wizard from Order of the Stick doing this once, but I believe the small sized rogue that was magically brainwashed, carried around, and used as a weapon was a kobold, not a halfling.
I like the idea of building the weapon into your back story. But instead of saying you aided the goblins, I'd say you fought against them, since that makes more sense. You learned from the experience of facing their deadly tactics of a type you'd never seen before, so you chose to copy those tactics against your own foes. Paladins are honorable, not stupid - if someone comes along with a good idea, they'll use it, just like anyone else, as long as it's not blatantly cheap and dishonorable, like poison or sneak attacks.
You can even role play a disdainful tone of voice when you tell people that the goblins refer to this type of weapon as a "horse chopper" in their own language. Make it a topic of conversation when you try to get people to help you come up with a more suitable name for such a weapon when it's employed in "civilized combat".
I like that a lot. Now I just need something more civilized to call it.
Nebelwerfer41: If I'm 10 feet away from an enemy (so in striking distance), the enemy can 5-foot step to me, yes. The tactic I'm talking about is attacking, and then 5-foot stepping away (so I'm 15 feet away, out of the enemy's 5-foot step range). It won't always be possible, but unless the opponent possesses a reach weapon, their only way to attack me will be to take an attack of opportunity, and if I trip them, it starts all over again.
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Nebelwerfer41: If I'm 10 feet away from an enemy (so in striking distance), the enemy can 5-foot step to me, yes. The tactic I'm talking about is attacking, and then 5-foot stepping away (so I'm 15 feet away, out of the enemy's 5-foot step range). It won't always be possible, but unless the opponent possesses a reach weapon, their only way to attack me will be to...
Ok, I got you now. I don't see this working too often in PFS games, as most opponents will be somewhat (higher than 3) intelligent humanoids.
BigNorseWolf: Really? I thought the argument was you could trip while holding a longsword, but the longsword would not actually be used for the attempt. I'd have a hard time believing a longspear trip attempt. Would it be possible to post the thread where this is discussed?
Coitenly.
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lcom
They changed their minds on how it worked. About the only use you get out of a trip weapon now is the ability to drag and reposition with it.
Relevant part from SKR
In other words, you can make disarm, sunder, and trip checks with any weapon, and you apply your bonuses (enhancement bonus, Weapon Focus, and so on) to the disarm, sunder, or trip combat maneuver roll.
It doesn't have to be a manufactured weapon (thus you can use unarmed strikes and/or natural attacks ) and it doesn't have to be a weapon with a special feature relating to that combat maneuver (such as a disarm weapon or trip weapon). Thus you can trip with a whip, longsword, unarmed strike, bite, greatsword, and so on, and apply your bonuses to the combat maneuver roll.
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Make it a long running joke that you never actually explain where the weapon comes from, you just shudder and say you don't want to talk about The Goblin Incident.
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BigNorseWolf: Really? I thought the argument was you could trip while holding a longsword, but the longsword would not actually be used for the attempt. I'd have a hard time believing a longspear trip attempt. Would it be possible to post the thread where this is discussed?
Coitenly.
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lcom
They changed their minds on how it worked. About the only use you get out of a trip weapon now is the ability to drag and reposition with it.
Relevant part from SKR
In other words, you can make disarm, sunder, and trip checks with any weapon, and you apply your bonuses (enhancement bonus, Weapon Focus, and so on) to the disarm, sunder, or trip combat maneuver roll.
It doesn't have to be a manufactured weapon (thus you can use unarmed strikes and/or natural attacks ) and it doesn't have to be a weapon with a special feature relating to that combat maneuver (such as a disarm weapon or trip weapon). Thus you can trip with a whip, longsword, unarmed strike, bite, greatsword, and so on, and apply your bonuses to the combat maneuver roll.
From my reading of that, it seems exactly opposite what you say.
"For example, just because you have a +5 greatsword doesn’t mean it gives you a +5 bonus on dirty trick checks (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide 320)"
This seems to me to illustrate that a +5 greatsword does not apply to any combat manoeuvres. Similarly, a longspear or longsword seem to not apply to trips or disarms from this post. Of course from the same post it would seem that a bite attack does apply, which is... weird but okay.
I'll stick with the Horsechopper. I'll call it a Goblin Bill, or something similar.
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@Mergy: Re-read the post more carefully. They specifically say that all weapons can do Disarm, Trip and Sunder unconditionally. All OTHER maneuvers must have a very good reason to be using the weapon.
Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon (natural weapons and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for this purpose) to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) apply to the roll.
"Horsechopper" - seriously, come on you know that that is just made up right? So invent something of your own, I don't know make up a word or couple of words like guisarme-voulge or something like that, give it the same statistics as a "Horsechopper" and say it is an anchient family heirloom
Quite right.
Point of trivia, most "choppy-blade-on-a-long-stick" weapons were made to. . .chop horses. Much easier to hack at a mount's unarmoured legs to dismount and entangle the knight than to try to attack the knight directly. Also, the name "poleaxe" does not derive from the name for a long sturdy stick, but from the part if a horse's anatomy called the pole. Bony point between the ears. Also, see the figure of speech, "He was poleaxed at the revelation she was his sister."
And I was going to suggest having his story be that the horsechopper was the weapon he found and used to rout a goblin attack against his village. But I much like the idea of it being a gift as someone suggested above.
I'm still not convinced all weapons can trip. People are just misreading the clarifications.
And to stay on topic: We have a paladin in our groups with a horse chopper as well. When he first announced it, I rolled my eyes too and immediately declared the horse chopper broken (in hindsight, I realize that it is not, though the notion of a goblin polearm being better than many human polearms still bothers me to say the least).
If you did this in my games, I would frown, but otherwise allow it. I would torment you relentlessly in the ROLE-playing arena though, with NPCs frequently questioning your judgement (if not your sanity).
EDIT: I would inform you that, that would be the case before you began play with such a weapon, however.
All Horse chopper really is , would be a badly made Bardiche. Its a lumped together, scrap made weapon. Just use a bardiche.
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I'm still not convinced all weapons can trip. People are just misreading the clarifications.
WHAM: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/v5748btpy88yj/faq#v5748eaic9nvd
They updated the FAQ. It is explicitly called out that *all weapons* can trip and receive any relevant weapon bonuses.
For example, you can trip with a longsword or an unarmed strike, even though those weapons don't have the trip special feature.
Those were much needed changes. I no longer have to house rule em, niffty.
I'm still not convinced all weapons can trip. People are just misreading the clarifications.WHAM: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/v5748btpy88yj/faq#v5748eaic9nvd
They updated the FAQ. It is explicitly called out that *all weapons* can trip and receive any relevant weapon bonuses.
For example, you can trip with a longsword or an unarmed strike, even though those weapons don't have the trip special feature.
That FAQ entry doesn't mesh with several other areas of the rules, but I'm glad they finally made up their minds on the matter.
Still, they are going to need to errata a few things to get it all to match up proper.
With all the advice, I think I may switch to a Bardiche when it's time to get a magic weapon. Although the temptation to reflavour a goblin weapon into one that goblins fear is great.
There is nothing wrong with using a horse chopper, except it is a make shift weapon of low quality, and I can think of no reason a goblin would make a human sized one. Now if ya would like to have a weapon forged into the likeness of a horse chopper for flavor reasons, then go for it, but "finding " one that is both your size and not poorly made isn't gonna happen.
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With all the advice, I think I may switch to a Bardiche when it's time to get a magic weapon. Although the temptation to reflavour a goblin weapon into one that goblins fear is great.There is nothing wrong with using a horse chopper, except it is a make shift weapon of low quality, and I can think of no reason a goblin would make a human sized one. Now if ya would like to have a weapon forged into the likeness of a horse chopper for flavor reasons, then go for it, but "finding " one that is both your size and not poorly made isn't gonna happen.
As was said above, a Hobgoblin leader could conceivably possess a masterwork horsechopper. It's besides the point as I'm planning on using a bardiche now, but there is no reason that a world as large and strange as Golarion should be limited based on a couple sentences of flavour in the weapon description.
Any advice? I know the Guisarme is also available, but to take a weapon with less damage and otherwise similar stats would be hard for me to stomach. This character is for PFS, by the way.
Instead of a horsechopper, you could use a hooked lance (Ultimate Combat; 1d8/x4, reach, trip) or a bill (Advanced Player's Guide; 1d8/x3, brace, disarm, reach, +1 AC fighting defensively, mounted opponents take -1 to Ride check to stay mounted when hit). The hooked lance does better damage as you go up in levels and can more easily be worked into a character's background (as an Eastern weapon). The bill is the best polearm for versatility.
Although any reach weapon can be used to trip, only weapons with the trip property allow you to add their bonus (masterwork or enhancement) to your maneuver check.
Trip: You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped.
I believe SKR's clarification is pointing out that the only Combat Maneuvers that will get a weapon bonus is Disarm, Sunder and Trip, not that those three always get them.
My reasons to believe this
- If I can trip you with a longsword and fail to do so I'm tripped, but if I trip you with a scythe and fail I can drop it to avoid being tripped. Why can I drop the scythe and not the longsword?
- Most of the trip weapons listed have hooks, catches, and other bit hanging off that can catch an opponents leg, but the longsword has two sharpened edges that will....cut someones leg.
EDIT: I'm not trying to say you can't make trip attacks, just not using the weapon.
And I did just see the FAQ post
just my thoughts on it
Look, there is no interpretation here. They changed the rules. You trip with any weapon you want, you get the weapons bonuses when you do.
If you want to make a trip combat maneuver, do you have to use a weapon with the trip special feature?
No. When making a trip combat maneuver, you don't have to use a weapon with the trip special feature--you can use any weapon. For example, you can trip with a longsword or an unarmed strike, even though those weapons don't have the trip special feature.
Note that there is an advantage to using a weapon with the trip special feature (a.k.a. a "trip weapon") when making a trip combat maneuver: if your trip attack fails by 10 or more, you can drop the trip weapon instead of being knocked prone.
On a related note, you don't have to use a weapon with the disarm special feature (a.k.a. a "disarm weapon") when making a disarm combat maneuver--you can use any weapon.
Note: This is a revision of this FAQ entry based on a Paizo blog about combat maneuvers with weapons. The previous version of this FAQ stated that using a trip weapon was the only way you could apply weapon enhancement bonuses, Weapon Focus bonuses, and other such bonuses to the trip combat maneuver roll. The clarification in that blog means any weapon used to trip applies these bonuses when making a trip combat maneuver, so this FAQ was updated to omit the "only trip weapons let you apply these bonuses" limitation.
—Sean K Reynolds, 03/15/11
I still don't see why I can't drop my longsword when I fail to trip someone.
I'm playing a Paladin with the Combat Reflexes feat. I'm taking advantage of reach weapons (currently with a Lucerne Hammer), but I know that as my damage increases the 1d12 x2 will be a lot less impressive than a 1d10 with a better crit. Lo and behold I find the Horsechopper, but I'm worried that if my Paladin uses a weapon styled by goblins, there will be more than a few questioning glances.
The reasons I like the Horsechopper are many: It's a reach weapon, and that's of paramount importance to me. It's also high damage; 1d10 is more than acceptable, and only the Lucerne Hammer beats it. It's got a higher than x2 crit multiplier (although I would prefer a 19-20/x2), and lastly it has the trip feature, which has excellent synergy with Combat Reflexes, reach, and the fact that I plan to be enlarged whenever possible. I want to be able to attack the enemy, trip him as he approaches, attack him as he gets up, attack him on my turn, and then 5-foot step away to do it all over again. A reach weapon with the trip feature also makes having improved trip far less necessary, which is good because I went with merely 10 intellect.
Any advice? I know the Guisarme is also available, but to take a weapon with less damage and otherwise similar stats would be hard for me to stomach. This character is for PFS, by the way.
Well Mergy (hi again ol' friend), a weapon is merely a tool. If someone finds value in a weapon, then they have reason to use it. Now perhaps society might think you're using some sort of inferior weapon, or might think it's odd you use the weapon of a common enemy. Ultimately though, it is just a weapon, like any other. If you find value in its use, then use it. Some might find it odd for a paladin to use a club (primitive, archaic, and damn effective), but what works, works, right?
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Well Mergy (hi again ol' friend), a weapon is merely a tool. If someone finds value in a weapon, then they have reason to use it. Now perhaps society might think you're using some sort of inferior weapon, or might think it's odd you use the weapon of a common enemy. Ultimately though, it is just a weapon, like any other. If you find value in its use, then use it. Some might find it odd for a paladin to use a club (primitive, archaic, and damn effective), but what works, works, right?
Thanks. I've got some time to decide, as at first level a masterwork lucerne hammer is still the most vicious weapon I could go with. When it comes time to get an enhanced weapon, I'll weigh my options, and probably count the number of times my paladin has fought goblins. It's good to know that I can trip with any weapon now though.
I still don't see why I can't drop my longsword when I fail to trip someone.because the rules say you cant
XD
I still don't see why I can't drop my longsword when I fail to trip someone.because the rules say you cant
Well the rules are silly at time I guess
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I still don't see why I can't drop my longsword when I fail to trip someone.because the rules say you cant
Well I think, to be precise, you can't drop your longsword, to avoid being tripped in return. Since it is your action, it's still a free action to drop your weapon. It just doesn't help you.
As was said above, a Hobgoblin leader could conceivably possess a masterwork horsechopper.
I can't think of any reason why. They aren't goblins and tend not to use poorly made weapons. The idea of a "masterwork" version of a weapon they made out of what ever scraps they could find is a bit jarring. What did they do find scraps and reforge them with the finest metal and wood?
A horsechopper like all goblin weapons isn't a real proper weapon, its a mishmash of what ever they can find.
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As was said above, a Hobgoblin leader could conceivably possess a masterwork horsechopper.
I can't think of any reason why. They aren't goblins and tend not to use poorly made weapons. The idea of a "masterwork" version of a weapon they made out of what ever scraps they could find is a bit jarring. What did they do find scraps and reforge them with the finest metal and wood?
A horsechopper like all goblin weapons isn't a real proper weapon, its a mishmash of what ever they can find.
Hobgoblins are more civilized. goblins don't have to make things crappy, and they dont have the fragile or broken weapon conditions automatically, so i'm inclined to think they're just as good crafters as halflings
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A horsechopper like all goblin weapons isn't a real proper weapon, its a mishmash of what ever they can find.
-Thats different from any other pole arm.. how?
I can see a pole arm sitting in a museum. The curator is waxing eloquent about the unique properties of this one of a kind pole arm, how the spike is for piercing, the hook is for dragging people off of their horse.
Flash back to 1483 *wavy lines*
"Alright bob, I don't know what you're making there, but you shouldn't have tried it after your second jug of brandy. Put. the. hammer. Down and back away slowly.
Unless it has been changed they break on a 1. They like all goblin weapons are made from broken/cast off scrap. They are a mismash if leftover,broken and disscarded metal.
They are makeshift weapons of poor quality.
Then it has been changed