Ok, I wasn't there.
One of my friends was experimenting around with a medium level (I think he said 10th) high str barbarian with the appropriate feats. (I will try to get the build from him this weekend).
He said he was getting a trip attack to work over 1/3rd of the time. That just doesn't seem right.
Are we missing something here or is tripping really that effective/easy?
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Should be easier. Check his build.
At tenth level you're a bonafide superhero. You should be flipping over bears like pancakes.
One of my friends was experimenting around with a medium level (I think he said 10th) high str barbarian with the appropriate feats. (I will try to get the build from him this weekend).
He said he was getting a trip attack to work over 1/3rd of the time. That just doesn't seem right.
Level 10 Barbarian:
18 Strength at creation, +2 racial, +1 @4, +1 @8 = 22, Rage +4 StrStrength while raging: 26 (+8)
BAB +10
Improved Trip +2
Greater Trip +2
Weapon Focus (whatever) +1
Magic Weapon Enhancement +3 (less than half WBL at lv 10)
Trip: BAB(10)+Str(8)+Enhancement(3)+Misc(5) = +26
Grizzly Bear: CMD 24 vs trip
Dire Bear: CMD 30 vs trip
Trip a grizzly on anything but a natural 1.
Trip a Dire Bear on a 4+
The following rage powers may also apply:
Knockdown (Ex) (Trip and deal damage, 1/rage)
Surprise Accuracy (Ex) (+3, swift action, 1/rage)
Strength Surge (Ex) (+10, immediate action, 1/rage)
That's without a belt of strength, bull's strength, bless, flanking, etc.
Sry, I was unclear. By appropriate feats, I meant for a regular hacking barb not a trip monkey. I don't think he had either of the tripping feats.
That is what surprised me. A character that didn't put anything into it can still trip a freakin dire bear on a regular basis.
That just doesn't seem right to me.
10th level does not seem like the super hero knocking down giant bears without even trying. Maybe that's just me.
1/3rd chance doesn't seem to me like "not even trying". That's firmly in "don't rely on this" territory.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Also, note that a grizzly bear is a CR 4 creature and a dire bear is CR 7, either of which should be farily easy for a 10th level character. If you want to check a CR appropriate creature:
Bebilith CMD 46 vs trip
Brachiosaurus CMD 44 vs trip
Clay Golem CMD 30
Couatl cannot be tripped
Fire Giant CMD 31
Giant Flytrap cannot be tripped
Guardian Naga cannot be tripped
Rakshasa CMD 29
Red Dragon (young) CMD 34 vs trip
Silver Dragon (young) CMD 32 vs trip
White Dragon (adult) CMD 36 vs trip
So for creatures that should be an average challenge for a 10th level barbairan, it's a lot harder to trip them (when it's even possible.)
For tougher opponents of higher CR, it will get harder to trip them as well.
Also, note that a grizzly bear is a CR 4 creature and a dire bear is CR 7, either of which should be farily easy for a 10th level character...
But it's a freakin great big @$$ bear!!! The guys that train the US special forces are expert hand to hand combatants. Can you see one of those guys trying to trip a bear and expecting it to succeed?
They're nearly a ton of 4 legged muscular meanness. I think there is something wrong with a system that makes it that easy.
1/3rd chance doesn't seem to me like "not even trying". That's firmly in "don't rely on this" territory.
By "not even trying", I meant not a special tripping build, no tripping special weapon, and not even raging. Yet it still succeeds fairly often.
Oh well. I guess that's just the game system as written.
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Also, note that a grizzly bear is a CR 4 creature and a dire bear is CR 7, either of which should be farily easy for a 10th level character...But it's a freakin great big @$$ bear!!! The guys that train the US special forces are expert hand to hand combatants. Can you see one of those guys trying to trip a bear and expecting it to succeed?
They're nearly a ton of 4 legged muscular meanness. I think there is something wrong with a system that makes it that easy.
Wizards can cast fireballs (multiple) and summon extraplanar creature by that point. It is a high-fantasy game. At best, Navy Seals will be level 3 fighter. YOu may need to switch to a different system.
Also, note that a grizzly bear is a CR 4 creature and a dire bear is CR 7, either of which should be farily easy for a 10th level character...But it's a freakin great big @$$ bear!!! The guys that train the US special forces are expert hand to hand combatants. Can you see one of those guys trying to trip a bear and expecting it to succeed?
They're nearly a ton of 4 legged muscular meanness. I think there is something wrong with a system that makes it that easy.
Don't compare to US special forces, they aren't fantasy - compare to Conan about halfway or more through his career. How about John Carter of Mars? This is about heroic fantasy. By the time a character is 10th level, they can accomplish crazy feats against mundane foes.
...John Carter of Mars? This is about heroic fantasy. By the time a character is 10th level, they can accomplish crazy feats against mundane foes.
I haven't heard those books mentioned in forever. You must be nearly as ancient as me.
But IIRC he considered a standard riding lizard a deadly foe that would clearly disembowel him while he was dealing with the rider.
Anyhow, I get what you are saying. That just seems too fantastic to me for medium levels. But like I said, it's what we got.
6th level characters and above are already superhuman (though not Superman level of superhuman). OF course they are doing things beyond normal human ability.
Calibrating Expectations Yes, that was written for Dungeons and Dragons. But the numbers haven't really changed that much in Pathfinder. The base idea still stands.
Also, note that a grizzly bear is a CR 4 creature and a dire bear is CR 7, either of which should be farily easy for a 10th level character...But it's a freakin great big @$$ bear!!! The guys that train the US special forces are expert hand to hand combatants. Can you see one of those guys trying to trip a bear and expecting it to succeed?
They're nearly a ton of 4 legged muscular meanness. I think there is something wrong with a system that makes it that easy.
Who said it was easy? He had to battle hoards of creatures for 9 levels to be able to pull that off. He had to summon all his strength and courage to get his adrenaline pumping enough to pull it off.
In a fantasy game where someone can grab some rabbit fur and an iron rod to create a lighting bolt that can kill at a distance, I don't think that we should be worried about someone that can trip a bear.
6th level characters and above are already superhuman (though not Superman level of superhuman). OF course they are doing things beyond normal human ability.
Calibrating Expectations Yes, that was written for Dungeons and Dragons. But the numbers haven't really changed that much in Pathfinder. The base idea still stands.
I also second that, a bear isn't that impressive, and comparing trained human soldiers to fantasy characters is rather silly comparison. A 10th level rogue, with 18 dex and max acrobatics for level, will also break the world record for high jump 25% of attempts (assuming absolutely nothing to boost his jumping beyond 1 skill a level), at level 10, a CR4 bear is something that a 10th level character would likely kill on accident sneezing.
So...this thread has nothing to do with the Grateful Dead? :-(
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I also second that, a bear isn't that impressive, and comparing trained human soldiers to fantasy characters is rather silly comparison. A 10th level rogue, with 18 dex and max acrobatics for level, will also break the world record for high jump 25% of attempts (assuming absolutely nothing to boost his jumping beyond 1 skill a level), at level 10, a CR4 bear is something that a 10th level character would likely kill on accident sneezing.6th level characters and above are already superhuman (though not Superman level of superhuman). OF course they are doing things beyond normal human ability.
Calibrating Expectations Yes, that was written for Dungeons and Dragons. But the numbers haven't really changed that much in Pathfinder. The base idea still stands.
Then there is the scariness of the 10th level monk who specialized in acrobatics. Scarey far jump!