Magus Black Sword Question

[Huppi]

Hi there

I just have a quick question about the Black Blade class ability of the Bladebound Magus.

Can the Bladebound apply any weapon properties (keen, vorpal, ...) to his Black Blade as the arcane pool would allow him?

And in general, do these properties count against the +5 cap? I don't really think so, because you wouldn't be able to create a vorpal(+5) +1 weapon.

Nice evening to you!
Huppi

[Grick]

Huppi wrote:

Can the Bladebound apply any weapon properties (keen, vorpal, ...) to his Black Blade as the arcane pool would allow him?

I don't see why not. You still have the Arcane Pool ability, just a smaller pool of points to use.

Huppi wrote:

And in general, do these properties count against the +5 cap? I don't really think so, because you wouldn't be able to create a vorpal(+5) +1 weapon.

A weapon can't have an enhancement bonus higher than +5.

Some magic weapons have special abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted). A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10.

A "+1 Vorpal Longsword" has an enhancement bonus of +1, and +5 worth of extra special abilities. The total cost is that of a +6 enchantment.

A level 17 magus who can use his pool to grant +5 worth of enchantments can make an existing +1 Longsword into a +1 Vorpal Longsword, or a +3 Speed Longsword. (Etc.)

A magus who has a +5 Vorpal Longsword cannot use his pool to enhance it further, since the weapon is already at the modified bonus cap of +10.

[Huppi]

Thanks for your thorough answer!

[DreamAtelier]

It is worth noting that there are certain schools of thought which hold specific builds of magus to be an exception to the standard rules about the maximum bonus a weapon can have.

Specifically, there is a magus arcana which states a magus can add a specific additional property to his weapon (the bane property, in this instance), without it consuming any of the enhancement bonus granted by Arcane Pool.

So the thought process basically runs that "if it doesn't consume part of the bonus granted from arcane pool, but only happens when I use arcane pool, it stands to reason I could take a +5 weapon, add another five points worth of special abilities using my arcane pool, and then still add the bane ability as icing on the cake, since I have an ability which specifically adds that to my weapon whenever I pay the additional cost while using my Arcane Pool ability."

[LazarX]

Huppi wrote:

Hi there

I just have a quick question about the Black Blade class ability of the Bladebound Magus.

Can the Bladebound apply any weapon properties (keen, vorpal, ...) to his Black Blade as the arcane pool would allow him?

And in general, do these properties count against the +5 cap? I don't really think so, because you wouldn't be able to create a vorpal(+5) +1 weapon.

Nice evening to you!
Huppi

Basic rule I follow is that the cap is +5/+5, +5 of enhancements and +5 of qualities.

So at capstone levels, a bladebound Magus could spend a point from his arcane pool to add vorpal to his effectively +5 black blade so it would be a +5 vorpal (whatever blade)

[Grick]

DreamAtelier wrote:

Specifically, there is a magus arcana which states a magus can add a specific additional property to his weapon (the bane property, in this instance), without it consuming any of the enhancement bonus granted by Arcane Pool.

So the thought process basically runs that "if it doesn't consume part of the bonus granted from arcane pool, but only happens when I use arcane pool, it stands to reason I could take a +5 weapon, add another five points worth of special abilities using my arcane pool, and then still add the bane ability as icing on the cake, since I have an ability which specifically adds that to my weapon whenever I pay the additional cost while using my Arcane Pool ability."

As the modified bonus includes character abilities and spells, I don't believe that would allow the weapon to exceed +10.

A level 15 Magus uses his Arcane Pool ability. He spends a pool point and grants his weapon +4 worth of whatever, then because he has the Bane Blade arcana, he has the option of spending an additional point to add the Bane special ability.

This means he could make his +1 Longsword into a +5 Bane(orc) Longsword, or a +1 Dancing Bane(orc) Longsword. Etc.

Just as the magus cannot use Arcane Pool (a character ability) to enhance an existing +5 Vorpal sword (due to reaching the +10 cap) he also cannot use Bane Blade (another character ability) to enhance a +5 Vorpal sword, due to reaching that same +10 cap.

(The black blade just makes it a bit more complicated, a level 20 black blade magus with Bane Blade arcana will waste a point of enhancement when he uses arcane pool and bane blade. +5 blade, +5 from arcane pool, +1 bane = 11)

[DreamAtelier]

The question mainly comes down to whether you accept general rules or specific rules as being the higher authority.

Just as the general rule is that "a person performing a bull rush provokes an attack of opportunity" which character abilities (ie feats) change to no longer be accurate, the general rule for magic weapons is that they can have up to a +10 total bonus, no more than +5 of which can be a straight enhancement.

The magus possesses a specific class option which says "whenever a magus uses their arcane pool, they can also pay extra to gain this extra benefit." Whenever is a blanket term, which can be taken to mean "if these circumstances are fulfilled at any point, regardless of other considerations, these consequences happen."

Now, Grick's arguement is that the generic rule ("no weapon may have more than a +10 total modifier") takes precedence over the specific rule of the Bane Blade Arcana. Personally, I prefer to think otherwise, because I believe that thematically a magus, someone who has learnt how to blend swordplay and magic to a degree unequaled by any other class, should be able to exceed other classes capacities in this area.

But his reading is as valid as my own, and only your DM can state which interpretation will be binding at your table.

[Maxximilius]

Just adding : note that if you are indeed limited to a +10 weapon and with maximum +5 to enhancement, a +5 bane weapon would still act like a +7 weapon against the target of the bane. Same for a +5 furious axe, the axe would be +7 when you are raging.

[Skerek]

LazarX wrote:

Basic rule I follow is that the cap is +5/+5, +5 of enhancements and +5 of qualities.

But the rules don't outline a cap on the qualities, the only caps are that enhancement bonus cannot go higher than +5 and that the total of enhancement and qualities cannot exceed +10, so a +1 Dancing Vorpal Longsword is fine RAW

[Huppi]

Skerek wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Basic rule I follow is that the cap is +5/+5, +5 of enhancements and +5 of qualities.

But the rules don't outline a cap on the qualities, the only caps are that enhancement bonus cannot go higher than +5 and that the total of enhancement and qualities cannot exceed +10, so a +1 Dancing Vorpal Longsword is fine RAW

That sounds about right for me, too. I already knew about the +5 cap for enhancement, and the total cap of +10. But I just wasn't sure about it, as the Black Blade is kind of a special weapon, which gains power over time.

Thanks to all of you again!

[Grick]

DreamAtelier wrote:

Now, Grick's arguement is that the generic rule ("no weapon may have more than a +10 total modifier") takes precedence over the specific rule of the Bane Blade Arcana.

Not really, as the magic weapon enhancement section was specifically errata'd to say "including those from character abilities and spells" due to these kind of questions.

And while improved bull rush specifically states you don't provoke an AoO, the bane blade ability doesn't state that it can increase a weapon's modified enhancement bonus beyond +10.

If the magic item section is general, then every single class ability that adds enhancements would be considered specific, and the line "including those from character abilities and spells" would be irrelevant. Divine Bond, Greater Magic Weapon, Arcane Pool, they would -all- allow you to exceed +10, which is clearly not the intent.

The item section is specific, it calls out character abilities as being inside the umbrella of the rule. The character ability does not say it exceeds the cap, so the item section actually is more specific.