TO CLARIFY BEFORE WE START: Hello, my username is Tacticslion, and I prefer 3.X/Pathfinder; however I also enjoy 4E. I am not starting an edition war, and, if I disagree with you, please do not take it personally. I am actually asking for real help, and not attempting to overtly bash things, whether you, the setting, or the company WotC. This is not an anti-4E, or anti-4E Forgotten Realms thread. This is a "let's make it better" thread.
Welp.
I read through the other two current 4E FR thread, but it just didn't really fit with what I am looking for.
I've got the Campaign Setting and the Player's Guide, but there are still so many questions. So, help me understand, refine, and improve 4E FR.
First, some of the epic iconics (my understanding and questions):
* So, what's happening with Elminster these days. I hear something like he can't cast magic (or else) and he's stealing magic for his "crack-ho" girlfriend who
The question, then, is "what's up with that?", as in what's really happening?
* Drizzt's all alone because everyone he ever knew or loved is dead. Also, he's now more a ranger than barbarian or fighter, so that's a bonus.
* Everyone else that's not a bad guy is dead. Which good guys are left?
* Most of the bad guys are dead. Which ones (aside from Red Wizard Szass Tam; and Orba- er, I mean Manshoo-, er, wait, no it's Orbah... er, hm, that guy in charge of the Black Network; and so on) are left alive, and what, roughly, are they?
* What level are all these (good and bad and other) guys (roughly) at?
Second some of the broadly-themed things that aren't answered:
* Are the Hathrans now all Primal classes? Do they have a paragon path?
* Red Wizards, I take it, are now nothing more than NPCs and have no specific abilities anymore?
* Harpers have nothing like a paragon path to take anymore?
* Critters like Phaerims and Sharns - what happened with that stuff?
* The Sarukh?
* Is Zara-Kur still there?
* The Shadow Weave: does it have any player-utility any more, or is it strictly for necromancers now?
* Spellfi- er, I mean the (current) Spellplague is interesting. Please tell me more about its current incarnation and how it got that way. (It's not a question, but it is a request!) Also Silver Fire.
* Circle magic sucks, now; let's change it. (It's also not a question, but a request; seriously, though, it's completely unusable as-written, unless there's errata that I don't know about).
That brings me into part the third, the gods:
* How, exactly, did Tyr go out in a blaze of glory?
* I'm guessing that means Tymorra is now a widower? How has that affected her?
* Lathand-, oh, I'm sorry, Aumanator seems like a complete and utter jerk, still. Nice, that you just kind of hid, all cowardly-like since the fall of Netheril behind a mask while decieving your fellow deities and didn't bother granting spells to your worshipers for a few hundred years, until there were enough of them to actually matter again. Jerk. Oh, right, a question... um, does he still have his on-again-off-again fling going on with Chauntea?
* I was slightly confused about which gods were blended/removed/etc. Sehanine = Selune, okay. Hanalil = Sune, okay. Angarradh = ??? (originally she was created from Sehanine, Hanalil, and Aer-whatever-her-name-is... the winged-elf goddess... speaking of, how's she doing? How are the winged elves doing?).
* How are some of the other gods doing? (Yes, it's open ended, let me know what you think I need to know)!
Finally (there's three "finally"s):
* What are some of the more subtle changes? As in those (like Cormyr) that look, on the surface, like nothing's happened, but in reality it functions not-at-all like it used to?
* What about Aebir (not the returned Aebir, the other one, with Maztica and stuff)? Do we know anything other than "sucks to be that world" (because of all the primordials)?
* Do psionics work/matter in the setting? I mean, more than they used to?
To be completely honest, I don't like the direction they took FR in.
That said, with the sweeping changes that were presumed, it looks like they did a lot of good. So I'd like to hear what people think, and get a better handle on what's happening in FR "right now". I'm curious about the various meta-plots, and those are some of the things that caught my attention on a read through of both books (and interesting tidbits I've seen in others' posts), that left large, gaping holes in what I thought I understood and how it seems to be. So help me get a handle on 4E FR!
To be completely honest, I don't like the direction they took FR in.
That said, with the sweeping changes that were presumed, it looks like they did a lot of good. So I'd like to hear what people think, and get a better handle on what's happening in FR "right now". I'm curious about the various meta-plots, and those are some of the things that caught my attention on a read through of both books (and interesting tidbits I've seen in others' posts), that left large, gaping holes in what I thought I understood and how it seems to be. So help me get a handle on 4E FR!
Take what you like, and leave the rest.
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In all honesty - I deal with it by using the 1e AD&D FR campaign setting in 4e. No reason not to, FR has gone screwy since 2e AD&D, 3e didn't help and 4e FR doesn't do it for me. Use the FR version that appeals most to you. A campaign setting doesn't really require game mechanics, just the fluff.
S.
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I read through the other two current 4E FR thread, but it just didn't really fit with what I am looking for.I've got the Campaign Setting and the Player's Guide, but there are still so many questions. So, help me understand, refine, and improve 4E FR.
I'll try to fill in the blanks for you as I too am a pretty big Realms fan. All though I enjoyed a lot of the changes made, I guees my biggest peev was the 100 year time jump. I understand why they did it and it makes sense, I just don't agree with such a huge leap. I'd have more preferred 10 to 25 years instead of 107 (current year is 1479 DR.)
Also, for my 4E Realms game I freely use 3E supplements for character ideas. See HERE for my on-going conversion of Forgotten Realms Paragon Path/Epic Destinies. I hope some of these conversion will help mesh your characters with more Realms ideas and flavor. Also check out my 4E FR items conversion HERE
The question, then, is "what's up with that?", as in what's really happening?* Drizzt's all alone because everyone he ever knew or loved is dead. Also, he's now more a ranger than barbarian or fighter, so that's a bonus.
* Everyone else that's not a bad guy is dead. Which good guys are left?
Drizzt's stats (or stat write-up in the Hero Battle: Drizzt article) does make him mostly Ranger with some barbarian-ish powers, which I think is much better IMO than his 3E stat-block in the FRCS, something that is ridiculously underpowerd and needs a revision to say the least.
As for other good guys being left, can't say that there are many from a century past. Mirt could've stayed alive with life extending potions and such, which isn't out of his price range. Arylin Moonblade has probably passed away from old age or from battle and the same could be said of Danilo. Could you be more specific as to which Good Guys your referring to?
* Most of the bad guys are dead. Which ones (aside from Red Wizard Szass Tam; and Orba- er, I mean Manshoo-, er, wait, no it's Orbah... er, hm, that guy in charge of the Black Network; and so on) are left alive, and what, roughly, are they?* What level are all these (good and bad and other) guys (roughly) at?
Hmmm, well the Black Network has been decimated by the Shadovar, but now works more or less in the Hired Goons capacity. The elven supremicist group Eldreth Veluuthra (sp?) is still around and probably thriving. For an idea of level they're at, here's an Un-Official thread based on some conversions HERE
Second, some of the broadly-themed things that aren't answered:
* Are the Hathrans now all Primal classes? Do they have a paragon path?* Red Wizards, I take it, are now nothing more than NPCs and have no specific abilities anymore?
* Harpers have nothing like a paragon path to take anymore?
For the Hathrans, they could always use Divine and Arcane power, so I'm quite sure those two options are viable and Primal classes as well. Druids used to be Divine but now they're Primal, so I'm assuming those connected to nature and the spirits are just as included as sorcerers and wizards. As for their Paragon Path, check out the thread I linked above.
Red Wizards, cut off from Thay, work more or less in a Magical Distribution nature. They create Estates where they craft, practice, and teach magic. That said they do not have an Official Prestige Class though there is a specific Theme for them from the Neverwinter Campaign Guide (debut this past August) which is pretty cool. Though I belive it's only designed for the (Mage), a wizard sub-class from the Essentials line.
Harpers don't have a Paragon Path as far as I know. Though I'm very much willing to create a Un-Official one.
* Critters like Phaerims and Sharns - what happened with that stuff?* The Sarukh?
* Is Zara-Kur still there?
* The Shadow Weave: does it have any player-utility any more, or is it strictly for necromancers now?
Phaerims, as far as I know, aren't statted up in 4E. Shar, OTOH, are statted in the FRCG, so they're still there.
Never heard of the Sarukh, what were they from? I don't know much (if any) of their history.
The Shadow Weave evaporated with Mystra's Weave. Shadow Magic works just like regular Magic, requiring no new feats or anything of the sort. Necromancers still rely on Arcane magic to complete their spells where Shadow Magic is more aligned with the Shadowfell. Assassins, Blackguards, and Vampires draw on the Shadow source where Necromancers are just schooled Wizards in that art.
* Spellfi- er, I mean the (current) Spellplague is interesting. Please tell me more about its current incarnation and how it got that way. (It's not a question, but it is a request!) Also Silver Fire.* Circle magic sucks, now; let's change it. (It's also not a question, but a request; seriously, though, it's completely unusable as-written, unless there's errata that I don't know about).
The Spellplague, for the most part, has died down except in the most concentrated areas such as where Halruua was and the Vilhon Reach. There, the Spellplauge rampages the region like a wildfire, affecting creatures and landscape alike. Since it's eruption upon Faerûn, the last century has tempered the event some. Though spellplague victims happen for apparently no reason.
I wasn't even really aware of Circle Magic in 4E, unless you mean Rituals. Could you point me in the direction of Circle Magic (i'm away from books currently) so I could help out here.
That brings me into part the third, the gods:
* How, exactly, did Tyr go out in a blaze of glory?* I'm guessing that means Tymorra is now a widower? How has that affected her?
* Lathand-, oh, I'm sorry, Aumanator seems like a complete and utter jerk, still. Nice, that you just kind of hid, all cowardly-like since the fall of Netheril behind a mask while decieving your fellow deities and didn't bother granting spells to your worshipers for a few hundred years, until there were enough of them to actually matter again. Jerk. Oh, right, a question... um, does he still have his on-again-off-again fling going on with Chauntea?
Tyr, feeling tremendious guild over killing his best friend Helm, decided that he was unfit to rule as the God of Justice. He gave the mantle of the Triad to Torm (along with Ilmaster and Bahamut) and decided on a suicide run into the Nine Hells.
Tymora never married either Helm or Tyr, but I'm sure she feels saddend by both their deaths.
I think Lathander/Amaunator was in a bit of a bind when Netheril fell. He might have lost so much power due to their demise that he had to come across to other nations as another deity (Lathander). As for why he didn't reveal himself, I probably wouldn't have either due to a fracture in the religion. I mean, I know they have had the problems with the Risen Sun heresy but I think that adds a bit of Realism to the setting. As for him and Chauntea, while nothing is definitive I'm sure they still have a pretty solid relationship.
* I was slightly confused about which gods were blended/removed/etc. Sehanine = Selune, okay. Hanalil = Sune, okay. Angarradh = ??? (originally she was created from Sehanine, Hanalil, and Aer-whatever-her-name-is... the winged-elf goddess... speaking of, how's she doing? How are the winged elves doing?).* How are some of the other gods doing? (Yes, it's open ended, let me know what you think I need to know)!
Ok, look at it like this: Gods are NOT big NPCs. Gods are much more grander than that and can take on multiple forms and identities (look at Lathande again). Angarradh was a combination of 3 different goddesses Essences. That doesn't mean their whole was suffused into one being Angarradh, just portions so to speak. The Avariel are still there (nothing says otherwise) so it would be a good assumption that their goddess is there as well.
As for the other Gods, many many of them weren't listed in the FRCG because they're smaller or have a nichè portfolio (like Lurue). Basically the thinking is "If it hasn't been mentioned in a recent change, then it hasn't changed". As far as I know, the only Gods that suffered in the last Century are some Dwarf gods, most of the Duergar Gods, Elistraee (which dind't die in my setting), 2 other Drow deities, Azuth, Velsharoon, Denier, Helm, and Tyr. Not really sure but if they haven't been mentioned to die, then it's all good.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that Gruumsh has been revered by humans and other creatures as the deity Talos, :)
Finally (there's three "finally"s):
* What are some of the more subtle changes? As in those (like Cormyr) that look, on the surface, like nothing's happened, but in reality it functions not-at-all like it used to?* What about Aebir (not the returned Aebir, the other one, with Maztica and stuff)? Do we know anything other than "sucks to be that world" (because of all the primordials)?
* Do psionics work/matter in the setting? I mean, more than they used to?
Hmmm, well Waterdeep has changed little. Baldur's Gate has incrased greatly in size but other than that, it's run of the mill. The North, Western Heartlands, Tethyr have changed very little. Obould's kingdom is doing fairly well, still an uneasy peace between the nations of the North though. Sembia is a puppet-state of Returned Netheril and the Shadovar. Damara/Vaasa is slowly being conquered by the Warlock Knights. Moonsea has seen some peace with the destruction of Zhentil Keep, so less raiders from the Black Network, though pirates still sail the Moonsea.
What do you feel has drastically changed with Cormyr if I may ask?
Psionics work just as usual, nothing changed there.
And no information about the other side of Abier was discussed. Basically parts of Mulhorandi/Unther and Maztica now inhabit that world, being ruled by Primordials (which does sorta suck).
To be completely honest, I don't like the direction they took FR in.
That said, with the sweeping changes that were presumed, it looks like they did a lot of good. So I'd like to hear what people think, and get a better handle on what's happening in FR "right now". I'm curious about the various meta-plots, and those are some of the things that caught my attention on a read through of both books (and interesting tidbits I've seen in others' posts), that left large, gaping holes in what I thought I understood and how it seems to be. So help me get a handle on 4E FR!
Basically I say use what you like and discard what you don't. I hate the fact that Elistraee was killed off in a novel. So, that didn't happen in my Realms. Helm, the deity, is slowly making a come-back as aspects of his faith is starting to remerge among different areas in Faerûn. I do like how Gods have pulled away their influence a bit from the world, I don't like them up in my setting's grille.
First: thanks, all, for the responses, all of them are appreciated! As far as "take your likes, leave the rest", yes, but I'd actually like to get a handle on what WotC calls canon.
Diffan: thank you, as your responses are great! Also, to clarify, the book I've been calling the "Campaign Setting" I meant the book you mentioned "Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide".
Good/Bad guys: all of 'em. The seven sisters (mostly dead from being murdered, I think), the other chosen, pretty much any once-important high-powered NPCs... I'm curious what their current status is.
Sarrukh: uh, well, if it's got scales and lives in Faerun, they've had a hand in it. They were one of the five original creator races and one of the great sages of men was actually a Sarrukh in disguise. They are, in fact, mentioned in the Campaign Setting, but I really didn't get any sort of a feel for how things are going with them. I just spelled it wrong last time... sorry!
Sharn: Same thing with the Sharn - they exist, I know, but what happened to the majority of them? They used to be one big (chaotic) society underground that were created out of a weird fusion of humans, elves, and dragons (according to off-the-cuff 3.X lore), but I'm not certain if that's been retconned along with some of FR's history.
Shadow Weave: the CS specifically says that it's a thing that necromancers use, so that's why I made that connection.
Hathrans: I presumed they switched to being "primal" power sources, because Barbarians are primal, spirit shamans (creatures who talk to spirits and summon them, and use magic through them) are primal, and druids are primal (and used to be divine). While I suspect that they still allow arcane or divine classes in, my supposition is that the vast preponderance are now understood to be spirit shamans (or possibly druids), simply because that class effectively is the Hathran Wychlaran conceit - i.e. there are primal spirits in tune with the land and I commune with them and generate magical forces from them. Although, based on their listing in "circle magic", below, I guess they do tend toward arcane and divine powers.
Cormyr: See, that's the thing. I can think of nothing, actually, that's radically different. What I've seen, however, are several posts on these boards that have alluded to some big, sweeping change, and that's what I'm trying to understand. My perception after reading both the FR Campaign Guide and the FR Player's Guide was that Cormyr's basically been the same for the last hundred years (albeit with a lower count of slowly-regrowing War Wizards due to some sort of massacre in some book or another and the spell plague).
Circle Magic: it's in the Campaign Guide and it is indeed full of suck (if you'll pardon my language). To whit:
Circle magic is most widespread in Faerûn’s eastern reaches, among the Rashemi and Thayans, but it’s found all over Toril among those who wield divine and arcane power. Circle magic shapes daily attack powers into rituals useful for large, long-range effects on the battlefield.
War Spells: Circle members can perform a ritual to cast a war spell (a collaborative version of a ranged or area attack power). The performance of the ritual requires 1 minute per participant. Each participant must know the attack power to be used and must expend that power on completing the ritual. Increase the power’s range by 1 square, the radius of its area of effect (if any) by 1 square, and damage dice by 1 for each participant.
Example: Six circle members, all wizards, get together to produce a war spell version of the wizard power fireball. They spend 6 minutes performing the ritual, after which time the power of the fireball flares forth. The war spell affects a burst 9 within 26 squares, counting from the space of the wizard designated as the caster. The power uses the Intelligence modifier of the caster for its attack roll, and it deals damage equal to 9d6 + the caster’s Intelligence modifier to each target in the area that is hit by
the attack.
Now, let's be "fair" and say those same war mages were facing down hordes of enemies, BUT they had hordes of allies, such that they felt they had the leisure of taking a short rest and spending 10 rounds doing nothing (six minutes/60 rounds). For doing diddly squat for 60 rounds of battle, they gain 165 extra feet (450-270 for area +30 for range) of lesser damage (net loss of 11d6 plus 5 [ts] the intelligence modifier). The Campaign Guide is really telling me that it's not worth them using up all their daily and encounter attack powers in six rounds, go somewhere to take a five minute rest, and then use all their encounter attack powers again? That's far more damage, on average, far more area, and they'd likely save far more lives than spending 60 rounds doing nothing but twiddling their thumbs. Ignoring their ability to go rest for five minutes, they could still, on average, do far, far more damage and be much more affective as individuals than as a group.
Circle magic only works, at best, in very ridiculously specific situations, and those it would still be more effective for a bunch of mages to just let loose by themselves. Also, spell-selection is already a factor - to get that to work, not only do you have to have six mages who are, at least, level 5, but they've all got to have learned and prepared fireball that day. That's... not really good use of resources. At all.
This simplest change is to move it from one minute per participant to one round per participant. I mean, it still kind of sucks due to the over-all massive damage loss and rather ridiculous time consumption, but at least performing the ritual makes sense. It's usable and useful, but is far from over powered, especially considering what else you could have had those six (or however many) mages doing with all that time (five additional standard/move/minor actions is a lot).
Ok, look at it like this: Gods are NOT big NPCs.
True. In 4E, they're monsters!
Joking aside, yes, I understand. I still like to get a handle on who's bickering and arguing about who killed who, and the like. Thanks for the various heads-up, all that's really cool to know.And whether or not Lathander/Amaunator was in a bind during the fall of Netheril is irrelevant. He literally cut off all of his worshipers just for his own sake. He said, "Sorry, sucks to be you guys, you can all rot in the wall of the faithless or whatever other hellish existence Myrkul's got for not worshiping a deity, 'cause I ain't him no more." I mean, this was probably when he attempted to remake reality to suit him (thus, possibly the Dawn Cataclysm), but really kind of remade himself to suit reality. It still doesn't stop him from being a bit of a jerk.
And also, yeah, Eilistraee's death didn't sit well with me at all. Especially how: she was captured and beheaded along side her Chosen and High Priestess. Welp. And even more especially after the very fascinating thing they did: she absorbed her brother's portfolio and evil church! It had even changed her a bit (but made her more powerful). And that was fascinating. Then it's all, like, "NOPE!" and now we're bereft of one of the coolest deities in Faerun.
Re: Deneir - so, I'm guessing he finally completed that whole "Metatext" thing and found out it was all a prank by a dead Leira that Cyric unknowingly perpetuated?
Anyway, I'm curious to hear anything else anyone has on it (or more from you, Diffan!). Thanks!
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You know, I commend you for making the effort to keep track of your favorite campaign setting's continuity and where its NPCs are - but when I read the FR player's guide for this edition I pictured poor old Ed Greenwood's skull actually exploding Scanners-style.
Don't get me wrong: a big Apocalypse Boom was not inherently a bad idea (then again, I liked what the Greyhawk Wars did to my favorite setting.) But there's a right way and a wrong way to blow up the Earth, dagnab it! I won't get into too many details A) because I'd almost certainly say something rude and B) I shouldn't really be thread-jacking your conversation anyway. Good luck trying to pick up the pieces!
Hahahah! I know exactly what you mean! I really never thought that Greenwood would go along with it, but... then again, he's got to make a living. I'm sure that he didn't particularly like it all (in fact, I think he said something like that's not the way he'd have handled it), but that's how it goes, sometimes.
I actually agree with you. I'm basically going to be using two different FRs in my various games - the 3.X one (where they actually stopped the Spell Plague from every occurring) and the 4E one. I think that there's a lot of good in the 4E realms Campaign Guide, and I'm curious about what's happening with FR now, as I can't afford all the novels.
I do find it absolutely hilarious that drow make their big debut as a PC race (the MM1 notwithstanding) in the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide. I mean, they don't actually say "hay geyz, yu cahn haz theez Drizzt clonze nao", but its pretty close. I especially thought it was hilarious (and terrible) that they specifically call out ranger as a favored class, when ranger only has one appropriate ability score (dexterity) and virtually no use out of charisma. That's... pretty silly. And entirely intentional.
To their credit, I don't see a single scimitar-wielding drow, OR even dual-wielding drow in the book (the only "drow ranger" kind of critter I see is the drow paragon, and she looks like a bow-wielder). So, you know, there's that, at least.
You know, I commend you for making the effort to keep track of your favorite campaign setting's continuity and where its NPCs are - but when I read the FR player's guide for this edition I pictured poor old Ed Greenwood's skull actually exploding Scanners-style.
Greenwood's personal FR games are still rooted firmly in the grey box that TSR first developed. I'm not sure why his skull would explode Scanners-style from a new edition's player's guide that he doesn't use, at least no more then the 3e or 2e or Avatar trilogy did.
If a flip through the FR material for 4th Edition does not suggest several reasons to you, then I cannot help you, young Padawan.
Like I said - I've thought of a few analogies for what's been done to Ed Greenwood's beloved campaign setting, but if I were to put them in a post, robots from the future would time-travel back to assassinate me before I could hit the 'Submit Post' button and annihilate civilization as we know it. Well, maybe not, but I ain't riskin' it.
Ok let's try this again but this time you read what I type.
Ed Greenwood has not given one single damn about any of the changes made to FR be it from WotC or TSR. He doesn't care about the 4e changes. He didn't care about the 3e changes. Avatar trilogy and the gods murdering each other? Never mattered to him. The ten bajillion novels about TSR that are pumped out every year? He hasn't read 'em.
I get that you don't play 4e FR and that you love 3e FR, but what you don't seem to get is that Greenwood doesn't play 3e FR, or 2e FR. The 4e changes are a non-issue for the same reason the novel changes and the 3e changes and the 2e changes are a non-issue.
I do find it absolutely hilarious that drow make their big debut as a PC race (the MM1 notwithstanding) in the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide. I mean, they don't actually say "hay geyz, yu cahn haz theez Drizzt clonze nao", but its pretty close. I especially thought it was hilarious (and terrible) that they specifically call out ranger as a favored class, when ranger only has one appropriate ability score (dexterity) and virtually no use out of charisma. That's... pretty silly. And entirely intentional.
To their credit, I don't see a single scimitar-wielding drow, OR even dual-wielding drow in the book (the only "drow ranger" kind of critter I see is the drow paragon, and she looks like a bow-wielder). So, you know, there's that, at least.
It's actually a pretty decent race to play a Ranger (bow) or a Scout (Ranger sub-class) Dex-based melee with light weapons. Not only that, but the Drow's flex-stat is now Wisdom, making it an even better Race for Rangers. But if people are going to imitate Drizzt anyways, you might as well make it a core component of the game. What I don't know is why people are mad at the idea in the first place? Since it's been going on since, ohh I dunno, 2nd Edition why would this be any different?
You know, I commend you for making the effort to keep track of your favorite campaign setting's continuity and where its NPCs are - but when I read the FR player's guide for this edition I pictured poor old Ed Greenwood's skull actually exploding Scanners-style.Greenwood's personal FR games are still rooted firmly in the grey box that TSR first developed. I'm not sure why his skull would explode Scanners-style from a new edition's player's guide that he doesn't use, at least no more then the 3e or 2e or Avatar trilogy did.
Actualy I believe you are wrong...but in a way that supports your statement....he does not even use the 1st ed box FR box set. His FR is actualy very different from what TSR put out. They adding gods, countries, etc.
Now I don't know if Ed did adopt any or all changes to his world after the 1st ed grey box came out....but I sorta of doubt it.
I'm quite certain when Ed sold the IP to TSR that he knew full well that they'd make changes he may or may not like. Even as it got further away from Ed's original vision, it shows great character for him to stay on for as long as he has to provide us with great lore and information, even if he may not use it at his home table.
So what does it matter if Ed likes or dislikes the changes WotC made? It's changed and as a Player you can use it how it is, change it to make it better for your needs, or ignore it completely.
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I'm quite certain when Ed sold the IP to TSR that he knew full well that they'd make changes he may or may not like. Even as it got further away from Ed's original vision, it shows great character for him to stay on for as long as he has to provide us with great lore and information, even if he may not use it at his home table.
It shows great character, or simply a desire to receive fees and royalty cheques. FR is his meal-ticket, after all.
If a flip through the FR material for 4th Edition does not suggest several reasons to you, then I cannot help you, young Padawan.
Like I said - I've thought of a few analogies for what's been done to Ed Greenwood's beloved campaign setting, but if I were to put them in a post, robots from the future would time-travel back to assassinate me before I could hit the 'Submit Post' button and annihilate civilization as we know it. Well, maybe not, but I ain't riskin' it.
Ok let's try this again but this time you read what I type.
Ed Greenwood has not given one single damn about any of the changes made to FR be it from WotC or TSR. He doesn't care about the 4e changes. He didn't care about the 3e changes. Avatar trilogy and the gods murdering each other? Never mattered to him. The ten bajillion novels about TSR that are pumped out every year? He hasn't read 'em.
I get that you don't play 4e FR and that you love 3e FR, but what you don't seem to get is that Greenwood doesn't play 3e FR, or 2e FR. The 4e changes are a non-issue for the same reason the novel changes and the 3e changes and the 2e changes are a non-issue.
You could scour the Candlekeep forums if you like to find where Ed Greenwood in his NDA way said they are not the changes he would have endorsed. There are many of them. Some of them you will find he does indeed give a damn. Just not a large one.
He needs to make money so there is no reason he WOULDN'T write for TSR. As another poster stated Ed's Realms do not vaguely represent the published realms at least with Moonshae and Kara tur. So its a moot point anyway.
I am just glad I can still enjoy Ed's writing for Golarion from time to time.
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So what does it matter if Ed likes or dislikes the changes WotC made? It's changed and as a Player you can use it how it is, change it to make it better for your needs, or ignore it completely.
It doesn't matter one bit. The fact is though he does care it changed. I think when people say he does not care they are misrepresenting his thoughts is all.
It doesn't matter one bit. The fact is though he does care it changed. I think when people say he does not care they are misrepresenting his thoughts is all.
So what does it matter if Ed likes or dislikes the changes WotC made? It's changed and as a Player you can use it how it is, change it to make it better for your needs, or ignore it completely.
I think whenever anyone other than Ed Greenwood tries to tell people what Ed Greenwood does or does not care about, without providing direct quotations as proof, they are misrepresenting his thoughts.
The guy is writing a monthly article for 4E FR, and has Elminster novels still coming out for it. That implies, to me, that he doesn't bear any real emnity over the changes. If you want me to believe he does, and that you are just trying to 'set the record straight' when folks claim otherwise, you need to present a bit more than saying, "There are quotes that support me, buried somewhere on some other forum on the internet."
If you don't want to beleive it don't. No sweat of my back. I said it and if people want to look they can, so my job was done. I don't care about providing quotes, I care that people know it was misrepresented and WHERE they can find the info if they care enough.
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you need to present a bit more than saying, "There are quotes that support me, buried somewhere on some other forum on the internet."
From the Candlekeep forum:
(The whole thread is HERE)
Yet it’s happening regardless of my personal wants, and I choose to be onboard trying to paddle and steer, rather than left behind swimming in the water, calling out that perhaps we should have set a different course.
Further:
I KNOW it hurts when you’ve come to love and cherish a fictional place and characters, that you can enjoy in your imagination, and someone goes and stomps on what you hold precious.
Oh, and in these two quotes, he is specifically speaking of the changes made to 4e FR...
Now, he does go on to say that you don't have to use the new stuff, and that you can run the Realms however you want, but it does indeed illustrate that he cares about and sometimes does not like the changes made...
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you need to present a bit more than saying, "There are quotes that support me, buried somewhere on some other forum on the internet."From the Candlekeep forum:
(The whole thread is HERE)
Yet it’s happening regardless of my personal wants, and I choose to be onboard trying to paddle and steer, rather than left behind swimming in the water, calling out that perhaps we should have set a different course.Further:
I KNOW it hurts when you’ve come to love and cherish a fictional place and characters, that you can enjoy in your imagination, and someone goes and stomps on what you hold precious.Oh, and in these two quotes, he is specifically speaking of the changes made to 4e FR...
Now, he does go on to say that you don't have to use the new stuff, and that you can run the Realms however you want, but it does indeed illustrate that he cares about and sometimes does not like the changes made...
Thank you for taking the time.
Something silly that apparently started something he did not intend.
Uh, sorry guys? I didn't mean to derail anything.
It's actually a pretty decent race to play a Ranger (bow) or a Scout (Ranger sub-class) Dex-based melee with light weapons. Not only that, but the Drow's flex-stat is now Wisdom, making it an even better Race for Rangers. But if people are going to imitate Drizzt anyways, you might as well make it a core component of the game. What I don't know is why people are mad at the idea in the first place? Since it's been going on since, ohh I dunno, 2nd Edition why would this be any different?
First: Honestly, now that WIS is a flex-stat, there's no problem at all. As presented in the book, however, they aren't optimized for rangers.
Second: it's not the worst thing in the world, and it doesn't bother me personally, but I find it humorous that such a thing is actively supported. With the drow-specific paragon path basically saying "you totally left behind your civilization" (and 3.0's Unearthed Arcana drow Paragon class doing something similar) it just vaguely asks for the rather unusual meme to continue. Again, there's nothing wrong with it - but it's kind of funny. That said, it's a completely understandable maneuver, considering that that's where money is. They do what they need to have the funds to eat and feed their families. That's cool. I recognize that I probably came off as annoyed... but I'm not. Just amused.
Third: others are probably frustrated with it due to over-exposure. My guess is that the internet made it get very old very quickly, for some, as my first exposure to the concept was the rather puzzling presence of hundreds of drow wielding two scimitars in a (now defunct) webcomic about chat rooms, role playing games, and MMORPGs. That's only a guess. Again, it doesn't bother me as we've not really seen it in our games, but there you go.
ALSO: thanks for the Greenwood quotes, Digitalelf!
FINALLY (and the real reason I came here now):
Soooooooooooo... 4E might be attempting to have its cake and eat it to. I've been flipping through the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide and there's a fascinating thing on page 45 - level 17 encounter powers for spellcasrred savants.
Your face twists into a horrifying rictus of pure suffering.
Encounter*Arcane, Implement, Psychic
Standard Action........... Closeblast 4
Target: Each creature in blast
Attack: Intelligecne vs. Will, Wisdom vs. Will, or Charisma vs. Will
Hit: 1d10 psychic damage, and the target is blinded until the end of your next turn.
So, I know it's not solid evidence, but it's kind of funny that the remnants of the Weave, i.e. spellfire i.e. the spellplague (which is what the spellscarred savant wields) has something named "Mask of Midnight". I mean, sure, it could just be fluff, but it doesn't have anything to do with darkness or night or anything. Your face just becomes a gruesome parody of someone in pain and deals psychic damage. And since the last Mystra was originally named "Midnight", who kind of got punked, but was in her seat of power...
First: Honestly, now that WIS is a flex-stat, there's no problem at all. As presented in the book, however, they aren't optimized for rangers.Second: it's not the worst thing in the world, and it doesn't bother me personally, but I find it humorous that such a thing is actively supported. With the drow-specific paragon path basically saying "you totally left behind your civilization" (and 3.0's Unearthed Arcana drow Paragon class doing something similar) it just vaguely asks for the rather unusual meme to continue. Again, there's nothing wrong with it - but it's kind of funny. That said, it's a completely understandable maneuver, considering that that's where money is. They do what they need to have the funds to eat and feed their families. That's cool. I recognize that I probably came off as annoyed... but I'm not. Just amused.
Third: others are probably frustrated with it due to over-exposure. My guess is that the internet made it get very old very quickly, for some, as my first exposure to the concept was the rather puzzling presence of hundreds of drow wielding two scimitars in a (now defunct) webcomic about chat rooms, role playing games, and MMORPGs. That's only a guess. Again, it doesn't bother me as we've not really seen it in our games, but there you go.
I've always allowed Drow PCs at my table, but I usually warn them that they're not very welcoming (yes, even in 1479 DR) and they may be shot on sight in some cities and small communities. That's realism as I believe it to be in the Realms and surface-Drow.
As for their optimization, Dex is a primary stat for Archers and you can easily get some good Wisdom based stuff with Point-Buy. While I like Point-Buy and Stat Arrays, I'm still a fan of rolling 4d6, drop the lowest roll. So it's quite easy for a Drow to be a dual-wielding ranger and you can even buy a 18 with Point Buy and go with an Str 18, Con 11, Dex 15, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 10 spread which isn't horrible IMO. Flex would push that Wisdom to 15, making it better though.
I think people find Drizzt fans more annoying than Drizzt himself. Most people who know the Realms understand that Drizzt is farily small-potatoes that roams a small portion of the Realms. His popularity is huge becaus he's exotic, he fights with exotic weapons (literally, not mechanically), and he is dark and mysterious. Those are faucets of a character that people are into (like Wolverine).
ALSO: thanks for the Greenwood quotes, Digitalelf!FINALLY (and the real reason I came here now):
Soooooooooooo... 4E might be attempting to have its cake and eat it to. I've been flipping through the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide and there's a fascinating thing on page 45 - level 17 encounter powers for spellcasrred savants.FR PG, page 45 wrote:
LEVEL 17 ENCOUNTER POWERS
Mask of Midnight
.....So, I know it's not solid evidence, but it's kind of funny that the remnants of the Weave, i.e. spellfire i.e. the spellplague (which is what the spellscarred savant wields) has something named "Mask of Midnight". I mean, sure, it could just be fluff, but it doesn't have anything to do with darkness or night or anything. Your face just becomes a gruesome parody of someone in pain and deals psychic damage. And since the last Mystra was originally named "Midnight", who kind of got punked, but was in her seat of power...
Could be but I rather doubt it. I mean, it's daze effect eludes to a more shadowy-scary power and is designed to freighten people. But if it is directly linked to how Mystra's (Midnight's) face looked when she was destoryed....well that'd be pretty damn funny. But I never really thought of it that way.
Also, the Doomguide's Paragon Path stinks. I'd chage it to be either Strength or Charisma-based, not both.
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Drizzt is hilarious if you learn about his actual history and how/why RA Salvatore made him. He was created literally at the last minute by RA Salvatore babbling something random out in order to sell his first book.
Drizzt is hilarious if you learn about his actual history and how/why RA Salvatore made him. He was created literally at the last minute by RA Salvatore babbling something random out in order to sell his first book.
I think the actual stories with Drizzt were fine, but not so great that he needed to be carried through the spellplague. Even Elminster is stretching it when it comes to believability of him still being around, and Drizzt has less back story to support it than the old mage.
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Drizzt is hilarious if you learn about his actual history and how/why RA Salvatore made him. He was created literally at the last minute by RA Salvatore babbling something random out in order to sell his first book.
Haha, I remember reading that. RA said he wanted to make a nice side kick for Wulfgar, a drow named Drizzt Do'Urden from the house N'a'shezbaernon. She (being Mary Kirchoff) asked him if he could spell it, and he said "not a chance". Pretty funny if you ask me.
As for Drizzt being carried through the spellplague, he's still a best seller. He's the IN for D&D and pop-culture. He sells, so WotC would be stupid not to keep him going post-spellplague. Sorry but Mirt, Arylin Moonblade, and the Seven Sisters don't do these things, plain and simple. Not that they're not great or fun to read, they just don't sell like Drizzt does.
As for Drizzt being carried through the spellplague, he's still a best seller. He's the IN for D&D and pop-culture. He sells, so WotC would be stupid not to keep him going post-spellplague. Sorry but Mirt, Arylin Moonblade, and the Seven Sisters don't do these things, plain and simple. Not that they're not great or fun to read, they just don't sell like Drizzt does.
There is also such a thing as overkill. Personally, I just have a hard time seeing how Drizz't makes that good of a main character. The few Drizz't novels I've tried to read, I was more interested in the other characters around him than him. Drizz't makes a solid support character, but to me at least, is simply too flat of a character to be a good main character.
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Drizzt is hilarious if you learn about his actual history and how/why RA Salvatore made him. He was created literally at the last minute by RA Salvatore babbling something random out in order to sell his first book.
The original model for Drizzt was Daryth the arabian influenced character from the Moonshae novels. But yes he was not meant to be the archetypical character he is now.
WELP: my posts were huge and broke the forum, so I'm breaking them into three.
FIRST POST (not that kind)
Re: Drizzt - yes, his origin was always hilarious as last-minute probable sidekick to Wulfgar. I forgot where I first read that - I think at the back of an anthology of the first series or something. Also, I wholly agree that their reason for keeping him is financial, and furthermore that it makes sense. He's not the best-written character. Salvatore's not the best writer, but he's written numerous other more interesting characters. But he's very popular and it would be foolish for WotC to ignore that. That's why I said I found the drow entry in the FR PG (before they had the flex-stat) humorous - it's not a "bad" thing, per se, just kind of funny. But totally understandable.
Could be but I rather doubt it. I mean, it's daze effect eludes to a more shadowy-scary power and is designed to freighten people. But if it is directly linked to how Mystra's (Midnight's) face looked when she was destoryed....well that'd be pretty damn funny. But I never really thought of it that way.
Shadowy/scary? It notes "pure suffering", and mentions nothing about fear. And there's nothing shadowy about it that I can tell! :) I also present to you further evidence: "Spellmother's Embrace" a level thirteen encounter attack power. As Mystra is/was the "Spellmother"... (note it turbs you partially into an ooze-like thing, which could be indicative of Mystra's current state)
Also, the Doomguide's Paragon Path stinks. I'd chage it to be either Strength or Charisma-based, not both.
It's probably supposed to be a paladin paragon path, despite being open to any divine class, basically tying it into Kelemvor's past as, I believe, he was a fallen paladin (from a curse); since those are key scores, for a paladin, it makes sense that they'd be required. That said, I agree... I'm just pointing to the probable basis for the design decision.
Now, in reference to Circle Magic, I've got an idea I'd like to run by you guys. First, despite my earlier assertion, I'd suggest leaving Circle Magic as-written... sort of. After all, as-written, you basically get it "for free", and one of the fundamental tenets of Circle Magic in older additions is that it required heavy investment to get "right" (presented as being limited by kits/prestige classes). 4E has done away with lots of that concept, and has instead relegated things like that to: feats. And that's where I'd recommend Circle Magic enhancement goes. The "free" stuff is still possible... and is still pretty terrible outside of specific circumstances... but those who work at it (invest feats) are the ones that reap Circle Magic's benefits. I'd break the feats into paragon feats and epic feats, leaving the Heroic tier the one that the FRCG explains as quoted above. The breakdown would go something like as follows (please keep in mind the titles and precise benefits are tentative).
Heroic: as written in the FRCG
Circle Magic Participant - Circle Magic is faster for you, but only a limited number of participants can join: when you lead a ritual Circle Magic circle, that ritual Circle Magic now takes only one round per participant rather than one minute, however you are limited to a number of participants equal to one quarter your level.
Circle Magic Specialist - Circle Magic is more flexible for you [prerequisite: any other circle magic feat or Tattoo Specialization]: when you lead a ritual Circle Magic circle, the participants can all expend any daily spell slot of the appropriate level or higher instead of that specific spell.
Circle Magic Ritualist - Circle Magic can be done in advance [prerequisite: any other circle magic feat or Tattoo Specialization]: when you lead a ritual Circle Magic circle, you may increase the time to one hour per participant (or, if you have Circle Magic Participant, only 10 minutes per participant), however the spell enhanced does not have to be expended immediately; the spell remains enhanced by the circle magic until it is expended by the leader, the leader takes an extended rest, or 24 hours, whichever comes first.
Epic Circle Magic Participant - Circle Magic is much faster for you, but only a limited number of participants can join [prerequisite Circle Magic Participant]: when you lead a ritual Circle Magic circle, all the participants may choose to delay their action in order to apply the benefits of the ritual Circle Magic during one round (the same round you cast the spell), however you are limited to a number of participants equal to one half your level.
Epic Circle Magic Specialist - Circle Magic is much more flexible for you and you can have many participants [prerequisite: Circle Magic Specialist]: when you lead a ritual Circle Magic circle, the participants can all expend as many daily spell slots of any level to enhance your spell or spells, instead of just that level or higher, however you only gain the benefit of a number of spell levels equal to one multiple of the spell level expended. For example, if you wish to have a thirteenth level spell enhanced, you must have a total number of spell levels sacrificed equal to thirteen or higher before you gain one enhancement, or twenty six if you want two. You can have a number of participants this way equal to half your level. If you have Circle Magic Participant, you may have a number of participants equal to three-quarters your level, and if you have Epic Circle Magic Participant you may have a number equal to your level.
Epic Circle Magic Ritualist - Circle Magic can be done in advance [prerequisite: Circle Magic Ritualist]: when you lead a ritual Circle Magic circle, you may increase the time to two hours per participant (1 hour per participant if you have Circle Magic Participant, or 10 minutes per participant if you have Epic Circle Magic Participant), however the spell enhanced does not have to be expended immediately; the spell remains enhanced by the circle magic until it is expended by the leader, the leader prepares a different spell, or 48 hours passes, whichever comes first.
Here's Tattoo Focus, as I see it translated into 4E:
Tattoo Focus (feat, heroic) [prerequisite: human from Thay or trained in special rituals kept by the Red Wizard Enclaves severed from Thay] - you have chosen a specially codified form of magic to master, and your studies in other forms are weaker as a result: choose one "school" of magic as your "Specialty School". You gain a +2 bonus to all attacks with arcane spells with those related key words, and a +2 bonus to all defenses and saves against the arcane spells with the related key words and enemies take a -2 penalty to their save against your arcane spells with those key words. Choose one school of magic as your "prohibited school". You gain a -5 penalty to all attacks, defenses, and saves against the related key words when they are part of arcane spells and your foes get a +5 bonus to related saves. If a spell falls under both categories, then it gains both the bonus and penalty (thus takes an over-all -3 penalty). The schools (and their related key words), are listed below:
* Abjuration (force, reliable, stance, zone)
* Conjuration (conjuration, force, summoning, teleportation)
* Divination (healing, psychic, reliable, sleep)
* Enchantment (charm, fear, psychic, sleep)
* Evocation (any four of: acid, cold, fire, force, lightning, thunder [choose three, once chosen they don't change])
* Illusion (illusion, radiant, psychic, shadow)
* Necromancy (healing, necrotic, poison, shadow)
* Transmutation (acid, healing, poison, polymorph)
Special: this also allows you to qualify for the Master Crafter feat (pg 92, Eberron Player's Guide), even if you don't meet the prerequisites.
The reason for this feat is so you can have the Red Wizard paragon path (without having to shoe-horn in that feat as part of the paragon path). I'll post that below in a second.
IT WORKED! Huzzah!
SECOND POST (not that kind either) - it's a long one!
Paragon Path: Red Wizard
[prerequisite: master crafter, ritual specialist, tattoo focus, must be an arcane caster class]
Special (11th level): Red Wizard Specialty - you gain one circle magic feat of your choice and your Tattoo Focus benefit for your Specialty School increases to +3 (while enemies take -3 on their saves) and your penalty to your Prohibited School decreases to -3 (and your enemies only get +3 on their saves). You may prepare one additional utility spell with keywords related to your Specialty School of your lowest level per day. If the spell has keywords related to your prohibited school, you cannot prepare it as the additional spell.
Special (11th level): Circle Magic Action - you gain Circle Magic Specialist as a bonus feat; further, whenever you decide to lead a ritual circle, when you spend an action point, instead of taking an extra action, you and all participants who spend an action point can choose to delay your action to participate in the circle magic. Your initiatives all follow the lowest initiative of the participants, but on that character's initiative, you cast the enhanced spell.
Special (16th level): Red Wizard Master - you gain the last paragon Circle Magic feat that you don't have (if you have it already, this give you another bonus feat you qualify for instead). Additionally, your specialization bonus to your Specialty School increases to +5 (and your enemies take a -5 to their saves), while your penalty to your Prohibited School lowers to -2 (and your enemies only gain +2 to their saves). Instead of your lowest level, your additional utility spell per day related to your school is of your highest level spell, and can be chosen, even if it has keywords related to your prohibited school.
Taught the ancient secrets of the Red Wizards, your tattoo informs the ultimate results of your carefully crafted magical incantation.
Encounter*arcane, school, (varies according to school, see below)
Immediate Reaction..... Close Burst 3
Trigger: an enemy moves to any square within range
Target: a number of enemies in the burst equal to one quarter your level
Attack: INT v. variable (see below)
Hit: 3d4+INT modifier damage of a type determined by your Specialty School, plus your Specialty School effect. See Effect and Special Below.
Effect: depending on your school you gain one of the following bonuses, as noted:
... * Abjuration [This power gains the force, reliable, stance, and zone key words; deals force damage; attacks reflex defense; and, if you miss all targets, you don't expend this power. You create a zone equal to the burst radius. All enemies within the zone take a -1 penalty to their attacks, defenses, and saves against all arcane powers except those related to your prohibited school. This stacks with other penalties.]
... * Conjuration [This power gains the conjuration, force, summoning, and teleportation key words; deals force damage; attacks the reflex defense; and you teleport all targets up to two squares in any direction you like into an empty space; you conjure a vague, moving, misty image in all but one of the squares that the enemies vacated of the enemies that vacated that square, leaving those squares as difficult terrain; in the remaining square you summon a near-direct copy of the enemy that vacated that square. The summoned copy can move at your direction and make only basic and opportunity attacks, though if you have spells that count as basic attacks it can use those (after which they are used up and unavailable to you if they are encounter or daily spells as if you had cast them). Sustain: minor - the misty copy of your enemies persist you may move the them a number of squares equal to your intelligence modifier. An enemy can target the misty images with a melee, ranged, or area attack; they have no hit points and, upon being hit are destroyed.]
... Divination [This power gains the healing, psychic, reliable, and sleep keywords; deals psychic damage; attacks the will defense; and you can expend a healing surge. All enemies within the blast act as if under an enhanced sleep spell - they are slowed (save ends). 1st failed save: they are unconscious (save ends) and take ongoing 5 psychic damage that does not awaken them (save ends).]
... * Enchantment [This power gains the charm, fear, psychic, and sleep keywords; deals psychic damage; and attacks the will defense. On their turn, all affected enemies must make a basic attack against one of their allies and make a save. If the save is successful they must move at their full speed away from the caster (save ends). If the save fails, they fails, they are affected as if by an enhanced sleep spell - they are slowed (save ends). 1st failed save: they fall unconscious (save ends). 1st failed save: they no longer make saving throws for this power and remain unconscious for an amount of time equal to an extended rest for their race, but they gain no benefits of a rest of any kind.]
... * Evocation [This power gains the four keywords that you chose, deals damage of those kinds (equally split between them), attacks the reflex defense, and deals ongoing 4 damage of those kinds (equally split between them).]
... * Illusion [This power gains the illusion, radiant, psychic, and shadow keywords; deals radiant damage; attacks the reflex defense; and fools the targets and their allies - the targets look like you and allies of your choice to the target's allies (target's save ends), you look like the target's allies to the target (target's save ends), and the target's allies look like you and your allies to the target (target's save ends). The targets and their allies can make a perception check each round to tell the truth, with a DC equal to 10+half your level.]
... * Necromancy [This power gains the healing, necrotic, poison, and shadow keywords; deals necrotic and poison damage; attacks the fortitude defense; and you can spend a healing surge. Each of the targets are harried by unseen shadowy spirits, and grant combat advantage to you and your allies (save ends).]
* Transmutation [This power gains the acid, healing, poison, and polymorph keywords; deals acid and poison damage; attacks the fortitude defense; and you may spend a healing surge. You transform yourself into a powerful-looking magical creature of your choice of large size (or one size larger than your current size if you are any size other than medium) and gain the ability to make all your spells as melee basic attacks. Their attack values become against the AC of the target (though they still use your intelligence modifier) and you gain a number of temporary hit points equal to half your level plus your intelligence modifier. At the end of the encounter or once you are out of temporary hit points granted to you by this power, you revert to your normal size and your powers work normally again.]
Special: you gain only the benefit based off of the Specialty School you chose when you gained the Tattoo Focus feat.
The power of your tattoo focuses your magic into new heights of grandeur, and you realize that your are more potent than you thought, capable of adapting as time goes on with your specialty guiding your way.
You may choose any arcane utility power of your level or lower from any arcane class that has key words associated with your specialty school, but not with your prohibited school. You gain this as a utility power. Each level, you may retrain this power to something else. You do not prepare this spell - you simply have it to use. This can even be a paragon utility power, although it must contain the arcane key word.
Your mastery of your specialization has led you to greater power than you knew possible. Let all who come against you tremble!
Encounter*arcane, school, (varies according to school, see below)
Minor Action..... Close Burst 8
Target: a number of enemies in the burst equal to one quarter your level plus your intelligence modifier.
Attack: INT v. variable (see below)
Hit: 3d8+INT modifier damage of a type determined by your Specialty School, plus your Specialty School effect (see below). See Effect and Special Below.
Effect: The effects of this spell are identical to your Spell of the Marked power, except as noted below
... * Abjuration [This power works as above, except that the penalty is -4 and, whenever a target misses with an attack, the spell instead targets them.]
... * Conjuration [This power works as above, except that you can choose up to two enemies to have summoned copies of instead of just one.]
... Divination [This power works as above, but deals ongoing 10 psychic damage instead of 5.]
... * Enchantment [This power works as above, but only requires one failed save to fall unconscious and no longer make saves.]
... * Evocation [This power works as above, but deals ongoing 8 damage of the energy kinds instead.]
... * Illusion [This power works as above, but requires a DC 15+half your level check instead.]
... * Necromancy [This power works as above, but the targets take ongoing 5 necrotic damage and provide combat advantage (save ends both).]
* Transmutation [This power works as above, but you gain a +5 bonus to all your attack rolls made while polymorphed.]
Special: you gain only the benefit based off of the Specialty School you chose when you gained the Tattoo Focus feat.
IT ALSO WORKED! Huzzah! (I was kind of worried about its length)
THIRD POST (no, also not that kind either)
Paragon Path: Hathran
[prerequisite: Ethran (feat I haven't fully formed yet), female from Rashemen or trained by a Hathran, must be at least two of [arcane, divine, or primal] classes (either a base class of one and fully cross classed, that is with all four cross-class feats, to another source; or a hybrid class with two power sources from that list) and they must each be different sources from that list; you cannot have mastered Enchant Magic Item ritual; you cannot be evil or chaotic evil]
Special (11th level): Hathran Sisterhood - you gain one circle magic feat of your choice and one cross class feat into any class that has an arcane, divine, or primal power source so long as the power source is different from the ones you already have. You gain two class features of your choice from your three classes - if you are a cross class choose one from each of your two cross classes, and if you are hybrid, you may choose any two class features you don't currently have from any of your classes. You also gain a new implement you may use with your invocations, prayers, and spells - a Wychlaran Mask.
Special (11th level): Witch Circle Action - you gain Circle Magic Specialist as a bonus feat; further, whenever you decide to lead a ritual circle, when you spend an action point, instead of taking an extra action, you and all participants who spend an action point can choose to delay your action to participate in the circle magic. Your initiatives all follow the lowest initiative of the participants, but on that character's initiative, you cast the enhanced spell.
Special (16th level): Oerthran - you gain the last paragon Circle Magic feat that you don't have (if you have it already, this give you another bonus feat you qualify for instead). Additionally, you gain the best defenses, hit points per level (starting this level) and healing surges per day of all three of your classes.
With the ancient incantations of the firedawn cycle memorized, you know the essence of the secrets of the land, its spirits, and the cycle of all things.
Encounter* (varies)
Special: Choose three encounter powers with three different sources - one arcane, one divine, and one primal; that's one from each of your three classes. These powers cannot be higher than your level minus five. Each day you must choose one of these powers, and it cannot be the same power as the day before. That is your power for the day. These powers can be retrained as you level up, but the stipulation of no higher than your level minus five remains.
Your deeper connection with your ancient deities, the spirits of the land, and the arcane mysteries kept the sisterhood through the ages enables you to delve deeper into mysterious secrets of the sisterhood.
(varies)* (varies)
Special: Choose three utility powers with three different sources - one arcane, one divine, and one primal; that's one from each of your three classes. These powers cannot be higher than your level minus five. Each day you may activate any one of these powers that you need, and it becomes the only power of those three that you have access to that day. After an extended rest you have access to all three again until you use one before the end of your next extended rest.
You have become an Oethran or "learned sister" - a revered and greatly-hallowed kind of Wychlaran. All rightly fear you, and those who don't will soon learn the error of their ways.
Daily* (varies)
Special: Choose three powers with three different sources - one arcane, one divine, and one primal; that's one from each of your three classes. These powers cannot be higher than your level minus five. Each day you may activate any one of these powers that you need, and it becomes the only power of those three that you have access to that day. After an extended rest you have access to all three again until you use one before the end of your next extended rest.
So, I'm glad these worked... really glad.
It's taken me several hours to get them all rewritten - again - and get them up. I'm staying up way too late doing so, but I wanted to get these ideas out and critiqued before I forgot them.
Before you respond - they're probably not as balanced as they should be: I wrote these literally as I was thinking of them the first time, derped and lost it all, and then rewrote it as best I could remember (with flourishes) a second time. I get that. That's why I'm putting it out to help me refine and clarify. I figure they get several things, but there's a higher "price tag" to enter, so that should balance it out... but I could be wrong, so let me know. I'm also going to post these in another forum to get opinions there, too!
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Ok, I read through the Circle Magic and Red Wizard prestige class you've typed up. Firstly, I'm glad to see more homebrewing stuff here. It shows creativity and I hope to help make your ideas better.
Firstly, the Circle Magic feats are pretty interesting. Not mechanically powerful, so unless your doing to be doing Circle Magic a lot I don't know how often it'll come up. Still, I can see it as a boon if you go that route.
Secondly, Tattoo Focus: It's interesting but a bit strange. Sometimes spells in 4E have the same school and it can be a bit confusing when you have to add then subtract the benefits and so forth. Instead of incorporating both benefits and penalities, why not just have a cancellation of effects? It's a bit more streamlined and won't cause as much confusion. Just a thought.
Additionally, while I'm not opposed to a severe penality imposed of casting Prohibited Schools, maybe a -5 is a bit too much? Additionally, the penalty monsters make to Saves is pretty overpowered. Even Arcanists who use the Orb can only impede monster's saving throws for the 1st round (and that's powerful). Maybe go along with those line and impose the penality for the 1st Save?
Lastly, the defense against spells with your chosen School will never come up because 95% of monsters don't have a "power source" in their abilities description. If you check the Monster Manual, you'll probably never find the Arcane keyword in their stat-block. You can houserule it, of course, but to be utilized by the general public, it's not going to come up in other people's games. Might I suggest a save againt a target hit by one of your spells with an associated school for 1 round? That's more in-line with effects and abilities currently out there.
Ok, the Red Wizard:
The prerequisites are ok, might be a bit much considering the shift from previous editions to a less restrictive entry. Still, it makes sense espically Tattoo Focus. Possibly remove Master Crafter?
The 11th level feature: Pretty solid, and it plays of a major feat for the Paragon Path. The benefits are a bit powerful with 3 different abilities tied into it. First you get a free feat (which is situational, so it's ok). Then you get a major buff to your Arcane spells in the way of attacks, damage, save penalites, and defenses while lessening the Cons of using prohibited schools. Instead, leave the penalties of your prohibited school at a static -2. Thirdly, you gain a free Utiliy Power. I'd axe that last part right away.
The 1th level Action-Point feature: Is too situational to be of any geneal use. The free feat, again is a given considering how greatly it'll come up. But the Action Point might come up only every few adventures (if the PC is lucky). Might I suggest a more versatile application: "When you spend an action point to make an attack, you can sacrifice the selected spell in place of another spell of it's level or lower from your class. You may ignore any penalties incurred if this is a prohibited school."
the 16th level feature: I think the bonuses to your Tattoo Focus are a little too powerful. I'd think it could be lowered to a +1 (feat Tattoo Bonus), +2 (11th level feature), +3 (16th level feature) instead of +5. This is where I could see the extra Utiliy power coming into play.
Now the Spells:
(11th level encounter) Spell of the Marked: First, the action is an out-of-turn attack, which makes it powerful right off the bat. Second, the target should be one enemy in burst, not all enemies which makes it broken right there. The damage is ok, comparable to other powers but with the benefits of feats, enhancement bonuses, and your Tattoo Focus, I might put it around 1d8 or 2d4 instead of 3d4.
-Abjuration: take out the Stance keyword, it's not needed. The zone is O.K. but a bit powerful for an 11th level attack. Take out the Reliable keyword and it's usable.
-Conjuration: The teleportation isn't bad. The shadowy-copies should either attack or move to provide flanking, not both. I'd suggest that they stay where they're at and you can select ONE ghostly visage to make an Opportunity Attack per turn, not all of them.
-Divination: whew, ok this one is pretty much encounter breaking in power. Not only does it only effect enemies, they take ongoing damage AND they have the sleep effect with a save penality. How about just the on-going damage and possibly penalty to attack (like -2)? keep the Healing Surge. Take out the reliable keyword.
-Enchantment: Same as above, way to powerful. How about one effected creature makes a Melee Basic Attack or shifts it's speed, giving you the option of which creature you want to effect? The save mechanic is sorta weird, with a successful save still having a negative effect. I'd just have it end on the successful save. And no sleep effect, just slowed afterwards.
-Evocation: Looks fine, but a bit bland. How about an effect that each creature in burst is pushed back squares equal to your Wisdom modifier due to the blast?
-Illusion: looks a bit wonky with the saves and stuff. Plus, saves are very swingy, which can be for 1 round or the entire encounter. How about "until the end of your next turn" gaining you two definite rounds of the effect?
-Necromancy: looks fine, pretty cool
-Transmutation: I'd take it out completely. There's only 1 trasmutation spell in 4E and it's just not a school worth getting into at this time.
(12th level Utility) The Pattern of My Magic: Well it doesn't function, at all. This is due to the fact that only Wizard spells use Schools. They haven't put schools to other Arcane powers of other classes, so you only have the Wizard class to look to. What about "Once per day, you can cast one of your prepared Utility Spells with your associated school as a Minor Action instead of a Standard Action." ?
(20th level Daily) Spell of the Master: Wow, so not only do you have a Suped-up version of your Encounter power, but you have that and the regular power to cast. Honestly, I'd think of something else to put in this spot. The encounter spell is way to powerful (even with my revisions) but this one ends encounters, period. When I get a chance I'll see what I can cook up. I'm still at work, so I can't be of much help though.
I hope you don't find this criticism bad or that I'm being harsh. I'm just trying to give you a balance point of where most powers of Paragon Paths lay and where this one comes in.
I hope you don't find this criticism bad or that I'm being harsh. I'm just trying to give you a balance point of where most powers of Paragon Paths lay and where this one comes in.
Not in the slightest! That's why I asked for critiques! :D
To clarify - I'm interested in seeing how and why it's over-powered. I'm not arguing it's not overpowered... as I said, I wrote it twice in a row way-too-late at night on-the-fly, and I expected it would be a bit wonky.
As far as spell-schools go, I don't see anything in the PH1-3 about spell schools, so I created those off-the-cuff. For the Red Wizard powers, I placed all the keywords in them, but that's why those are there. I'm completely fine with, instead of being triggered, it being a standard action or whatever. I was really just kind of trying to write it up rapidly. I can easily see how broken the diviner and enchanter could be and how "swingy" the illusionist could be a problem. As for transmutation - again, I've never seen spell schools in 4E, I literally just made them up on my own last night. I've never seen anything about spell schools in 4E. I'm guessing it's a post-Essentials thing?
That's why I'm very surprised about your response to the 12th level power - since I lacked any knowledge of the existence of 4E schools, I just related the schools to the keywords I mentioned above, and that's the basis off of which the power works: those key words. I'd be curious to know what WotC has for the various schools of magic.
I'm totally fine with re-building the benefit/penalty thing!
As far as the crafting goes, that's fine - I actually put that in there with a now-defunct idea for letting Red Wizards enchant magic items at a discount (I was thinking something like 5% total). Since that's different now, sure, it can totally go. I'd probably put a prerequisite of something like having mastered the Enchant Item ritual, however.
I'm totally fine with the action point being terribly situational, but that's just me. I also like your proposition, but I'm not entirely sold... still, I probably could be.
Wow, so not only do you have a Suped-up version of your Encounter power, but you have that and the regular power to cast.
I'm sorry, but I actually don't understand this sentence. ... actually, after rereading it several times and looking at the powers, now I think I do. You are surprised because this is a minor action? Got it. Easy fix - change the action. Over all, though, yes, I do think that it should basically be a suped-up version of the lower one. But if you have a great suggestion, I'm open to it!
You know, alternatively, let's take the encounter spell and drop it into the 20th level slot. Then let's rebuild a lesser version into the encounter variant. Sound good?
RE: Hathrans (Which I noticed you didn't touch! Understandable!) I'm curious to your impression. It's not supposed to be perfectly balanced, but it's supposed to be relatively so. The fact that it relies on multiclassing already brings its power level relatively low, and the circle magic stuff with extra elements to help make it worthwhile. I get that it doesn't really work like most classes, however it seems similar enough to some of both the gnome and human paragon path features (fey beguiler and adroit explorer respectively) that I figured it would work.
And thanks!
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To clarify - I'm interested in seeing how and why it's over-powered. I'm not arguing it's not overpowered... as I said, I wrote it twice in a row way-too-late at night on-the-fly, and I expected it would be a bit wonky.
I'll see what I can do. I try to post as much as I can from work, but sometimes they do make me work there so if I haven't gotten to a part of your homebrew stuff, it's because I haven't had the time to respond yet. Like now, I have to be brief. When I get my books, I'll do some comparisons on numbers, damage, effect, and targets to give you a down-low on balance issues.
As far as spell-schools go, I don't see anything in the PH1-3 about spell schools, so I created those off-the-cuff. For the Red Wizard powers, I placed all the keywords in them, but that's why those are there. I'm completely fine with, instead of being triggered, it being a standard action or whatever. I was really just kind of trying to write it up rapidly. I can easily see how broken the diviner and enchanter could be and how "swingy" the illusionist could be a problem. As for transmutation - again, I've never seen spell schools in 4E, I literally just made them up on my own last night. I've never seen anything about spell schools in 4E. I'm guessing it's a post-Essentials thing?
Well they did some Errata on the Arcanist (PHB 1 Wizard class) with all the spells from the PHB gaining school keywords found HERE. It's a free download with pretty much the whole Wizard class from the PHB. They did not put in powers from Arcane Power, just so your aware.
That's why I'm very surprised about your response to the 12th level power - since I lacked any knowledge of the existence of 4E schools, I just related the schools to the keywords I mentioned above, and that's the basis off of which the power works: those key words. I'd be curious to know what WotC has for the various schools of magic.I'm totally fine with re-building the benefit/penalty thing!
I'll help when I get some free time. For the time being, I feel a +1, +2, +3 benefit is a bit more balanced than +2, +3, +5 (and to saves too). Also, schools came about with the Heroes of the Fallen Lands book (something I'd highly recommend as it's really cool and a bit different from Arcanists (PHB wizards).
As far as the crafting goes, that's fine - I actually put that in there with a now-defunct idea for letting Red Wizards enchant magic items at a discount (I was thinking something like 5% total). Since that's different now, sure, it can totally go. I'd probably put a prerequisite of something like having mastered the Enchant Item ritual, however.I'm totally fine with the action point being terribly situational, but that's just me. I also like your proposition, but I'm not entirely sold... still, I probably could be.
Keep in mind that Action Points were designed to be situation changers, gaining an extra action at a vital time. Most Paragon Paths have some sort or re-charge mechanic, swap out spell for something else mechanic, or temporary buff mechanic. I like to keep things simple, but that's me.
I'm sorry, but I actually don't understand this sentence. ... actually, after rereading it several times and looking at the powers, now I think I do. You are surprised because this is a minor action? Got it. Easy fix - change the action. Over all, though, yes, I do think that it should basically be a suped-up version of the lower one. But if you have a great suggestion, I'm open to it!You know, alternatively, let's take the encounter spell and drop it into the 20th level slot. Then let's rebuild a lesser version into the encounter variant. Sound good?
What I mean by that is you retain your Encounter power at 11th level throughout your entire career in 4E. Meaning at 29th level, your lowest level encounter power is going to be your 11th level Paragon Path power. In addition to that, you also have your 20th level Paragon Path power, which is a beefed up version of your Encounter (giving you two uses of them per day). I like the encounter power, and I'll try to make up a Daily one for ya.
RE: Hathrans (Which I noticed you didn't touch! Understandable!) I'm curious to your impression. It's not supposed to be perfectly balanced, but it's supposed to be relatively so. The fact that it relies on multiclassing already brings its power level relatively low, and the circle magic stuff with extra elements to help make it worthwhile. I get that it doesn't really work like most classes, however it seems similar enough to some of both the gnome and human paragon path features (fey beguiler and adroit explorer respectively) that I figured it would work.
I haven't read the Hathran yet, work was actually pretty busy today and I can only be on the internet so long without getting into trouble. When I get more time, I'll give it a good read-through.
Hahah! Diffan, I like you, I truly do. Please, however, don't get in trouble at work on my account. I can be patient, despite pressing refresh on this thread every fifteen minutes or so*. :D
That said, right now's not a good time for me, but I'll look into that link soon, I hope.
* I don't actually do this, but I do hit refresh a lot. When you're a stay-at-home dad, it's a thing to do as you pass by the computer with chores.
Interesting. Apparently schools are now a keyword. Hm. Well, that's probably great for regular games, but as I have no other elements that use those, this might not be for the best in my games. Perhaps using two different editions - one that uses the actual school supplements, and one that uses something akin to the list that I gave above?
So, Diffan (and others interested) here is another concept for circle magic. I'm not sold on Meister's concept (specific powers that are circle magic powers), but that's me.