Vindicator's Shield at will?

[Ravingdork]

APG wrote:

Vindicator's Shield (Su): A vindicator can channel energy into his shield as a standard action; when worn, the shield gives the vindicator a sacred bonus (if positive energy) or profane bonus (if negative energy) to his Armor Class equal to the number of dice of the vindicator's channel energy. This bonus lasts for 24 hours or until the vindicator is struck in combat, whichever comes first. The shield does not provide this bonus to any other wielder, but the vindicator does not need to be holding the shield for it to retain this power.

One of my fellow players is planning on taking his cleric into Holy Vindicator. He believes that there is no daily limit to the above ability since it doesn't state that it expends a use of channel energy. However, the GM believes the above text indicates that activating it uses up a single daily use of channel energy.

Neither can agree on the matter and have arrived at an impasse, so they asked me to post on the forums and solicit other opinions on the matter.

Has a dev ruled on this yet by any chance?

NHS.

[Jason Nelson]

Ravingdork wrote:

APG wrote:

Vindicator's Shield (Su): A vindicator can channel energy into his shield as a standard action; when worn, the shield gives the vindicator a sacred bonus (if positive energy) or profane bonus (if negative energy) to his Armor Class equal to the number of dice of the vindicator's channel energy. This bonus lasts for 24 hours or until the vindicator is struck in combat, whichever comes first. The shield does not provide this bonus to any other wielder, but the vindicator does not need to be holding the shield for it to retain this power.

One of my fellow players is planning on taking his cleric into Holy Vindicator. He believes that there is no daily limit to the above ability since it doesn't state that it expends a use of channel energy. However, the GM believes the above text indicates that activating it uses up a single daily use of channel energy.

Neither can agree on the matter and have arrived at an impasse, so they asked me to post on the forums and solicit other opinions on the matter.

Has a dev ruled on this yet by any chance?

Prefaced with the comment that I am not the developer but the author of said PrC, and my comments are not official RAW judgments for the purpose of PFS or similar campaigns, I can offer you my unofficial RAI opinion on the subject.

1. I'm rather baffled by how an ability that states "A vindicator can channel energy... " could be interpreted in any way other than the use of the "channel energy" class feature that is a prerequisite for the class, and that is literally right next to the entry for the Vindicator's Shield ability, immediately preceding it in the description of class abilities.

The channel energy ability is itself limited in number of uses per day; ipso facto, any ability that is a use of the channel energy is using a use of channel energy.

The syllogism seems pretty straightforward: If A = B and B = C, then A = C.

A - Vindicator's Shield
B - Channel Energy
C - Limited uses per day

If X is true (Channeling energy is limited uses per day) and Y is true (Vindicator's Shield is channeling energy), then by definition XY is true (Vindicator's Shield is limited uses per day).

2. Is there perhaps some other meaning of "channel energy" to which the player believes this term refers?

3. If you believe it is absolutely necessary for the PrC ability to include a sentence stating the following:

Using channel energy to use this ability counts as a use of channel energy.

Then by all means include it with my blessing. Personally I think it's redundant, but if it helps settle an argument then all to the good.

Ravingdork wrote:

NHS.

I don't know what this abbreviation means.

[Ravingdork]

Jason Nelson wrote:

Is there perhaps some other meaning of "channel energy" to which the player believes this term refers?

There are a lot of abilities out there that run on channel energy. I think he was getting confused because almost all of them clearly state when they expend a use of channel energy. In comparison, the wording for Vindicator's Shield IS a little less clear.

Jason Nelson wrote:

I don't know what this abbreviation means.

I'd get in trouble if I gave you the real meaning, but another way to say it would be "no horse scat."

I have a reputation on these boards and some people doubt my sincerity in threads such as this one.

[caubocalypse]

Can I just say that I absolutely love the Holy Vindicator PrC? It's my favorite ever! I'm curious what other ones you've developed outside of PF.

Honestly, I don't see why the majority of clerics don't become Holy Vindicators.

[Kalyth]

Jason Nelson wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

APG wrote:

Vindicator's Shield (Su): A vindicator can channel energy into his shield as a standard action; when worn, the shield gives the vindicator a sacred bonus (if positive energy) or profane bonus (if negative energy) to his Armor Class equal to the number of dice of the vindicator's channel energy. This bonus lasts for 24 hours or until the vindicator is struck in combat, whichever comes first. The shield does not provide this bonus to any other wielder, but the vindicator does not need to be holding the shield for it to retain this power.

One of my fellow players is planning on taking his cleric into Holy Vindicator. He believes that there is no daily limit to the above ability since it doesn't state that it expends a use of channel energy. However, the GM believes the above text indicates that activating it uses up a single daily use of channel energy.

Neither can agree on the matter and have arrived at an impasse, so they asked me to post on the forums and solicit other opinions on the matter.

Has a dev ruled on this yet by any chance?

Prefaced with the comment that I am not the developer but the author of said PrC, and my comments are not official RAW judgments for the purpose of PFS or similar campaigns, I can offer you my unofficial RAI opinion on the subject.

1. I'm rather baffled by how an ability that states "A vindicator can channel energy... " could be interpreted in any way other than the use of the "channel energy" class feature that is a prerequisite for the class, and that is literally right next to the entry for the Vindicator's Shield ability, immediately preceding it in the description of class abilities.

The channel energy ability is itself limited in number of uses per day; ipso facto, any ability that is a use of the channel energy is using a use of channel energy.

The syllogism seems pretty straightforward: If A = B and B = C, then A = C.

A - Vindicator's Shield
B - Channel Energy
C - Limited uses per...

Most other channel energy variants (and Lay on Hands, etc.) state that they use one or more daily uses. This power does not.

[Jason Nelson]

Joseph Caubo wrote:

Can I just say that I absolutely love the Holy Vindicator PrC? It's my favorite ever! I'm curious what other ones you've developed outside of PF.

Honestly, I don't see why the majority of clerics don't become Holy Vindicators.

Mostly because they don't want to kick any caster levels. That's the main thing, I'd think. Also, if you have domain powers that improve significantly with level you might not want to do it, as you'd miss out on a lot of those. Some domains it doesn't matter as much, but others it does.

Glad you enjoyed. I don't think I did any outside of PF. Within PF, if memory serves the ones I did were:

Living Monolith (Osirion book)
Pathfinder Chronicler (PF Campaign Setting/Core Rulebook)
Low Templar (PF Campaign Setting/Inner Sea Guide)
Holy Vindicator (APG)
Rage Prophet (APG)
Nature Warden (APG)
Battle Herald (APG)

Seems like there might be another one but maybe not, or I'm just not remembering it now. There was a third for the Campaign Setting that I wrote but got cut.

[Jason Nelson]

Kalyth wrote:

Most other channel energy variants (and Lay on Hands, etc.) state that they use one or more daily uses. This power does not.

As I said to Ravingdork above, my thought while writing it was that stating that an ability that uses channel energy uses a use of channel energy was redundant. Other abilities do include that language, however, so the authors or developers of those sections felt the language was not redundant and included it.

If uniformity of that language is important to you and/or your group, then by all means I would suggest to include it, as the RAI is that using channel energy for this ability DOES use a use of channel energy. If that is not self-evident for you and yours, then take my suggestion as being the evidence of it.

[Kalyth]

Jason Nelson wrote:

Kalyth wrote:

Most other channel energy variants (and Lay on Hands, etc.) state that they use one or more daily uses. This power does not.

As I said to Ravingdork above, my thought while writing it was that stating that an ability that uses channel energy uses a use of channel energy was redundant. Other abilities do include that language, however, so the authors or developers of those sections felt the language was not redundant and included it.

If uniformity of that language is important to you and/or your group, then by all means I would suggest to include it, as the RAI is that using channel energy for this ability DOES use a use of channel energy. If that is not self-evident for you and yours, then take my suggestion as being the evidence of it.

Uniformity of the language is important to any rules system. It clarifies and avoids confusion. When all other similar powers call out "uses X uses of Y ability" and then one doesn't state flat out that it indeed "uses X uses" it leaves it open to question.

The Ability didnt even stat, The Vindicator can use his channel energy class feature to.... It just stats the Vincicator can channel energy into his shield as a standard action..... That right there is a very open statement. I can assume you are refering to the Channel Energy Class Feature or I can assume you made a poor choice in phrasing and it could very well be an independent yet similar ability. Without rules text specifically clarifying different readers could go different ways with it.

[Grick]

Jason Nelson wrote:

Joseph Caubo wrote:

Can I just say that I absolutely love the Holy Vindicator PrC? It's my favorite ever! I'm curious what other ones you've developed outside of PF.

Glad you enjoyed. I don't think I did any outside of PF. Within PF, if memory serves the ones I did were:

Living Monolith (Osirion book)
Pathfinder Chronicler (PF Campaign Setting/Core Rulebook)
Low Templar (PF Campaign Setting/Inner Sea Guide)
Holy Vindicator (APG)
Rage Prophet (APG)
Nature Warden (APG)
Battle Herald (APG)

Seems like there might be another one but maybe not, or I'm just not remembering it now. There was a third for the Campaign Setting that I wrote but got cut.

It's not a PrC but the fighter archetypes from APG were really great. 2/5 of my current group are using them. (And another is a HV)

[hogarth]

Jason Nelson wrote:

Prefaced with the comment that I am not the developer but the author of said PrC, and my comments are not official RAW judgments for the purpose of PFS or similar campaigns, I can offer you my unofficial RAI opinion on the subject.

1. I'm rather baffled by how an ability that states "A vindicator can channel energy... " could be interpreted in any way other than the use of the "channel energy" class feature that is a prerequisite for the class, and that is literally right next to the entry for the Vindicator's Shield ability, immediately preceding it in the description of class abilities.

I blush to disclose that I didn't realise that it used a channel energy use, either. As noted above, when the same (or very similar) boilerplate is used every time (e.g. "you can choose to spend one use of your channel energy ability" or "you must meet the prerequisites of the selected bonus feat"), it seems to add some kind of significance when it's not there.

[rpotor]

Resurrecting the thread for another question regarding the wording of this ability. :-) One of my PCs built his character using this PrC and he has an AC of 40 when this ability is active.

Now the ability description states: This bonus lasts for 24 hours or until the vindicator is struck in combat, whichever comes first. Exactly what constitutes as "struck in combat" here? If I hit and damage the character with a Fireball spell or for example an Inflict Serious Wounds spell, does the vindicator's shield expires immediately or does it only go away if the character is struck with a melee or ranged weapon?

Thanks for any insights.

[dupuis82]

So I have a question about the vindicators shield, and how it is used. I understand the concept of channeling energy (I am a level 15 cleric, level 1 Holy vindicator) Can I use Maximize and empower spell feat when casting it or is it just the amount of dice added to my AC, I am confused on this and have not been able to find the answer. Please and thank you.

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

Metamagic feats only work on spells. Vindicator's shield is a supernatural ability, not a spell.