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You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature.
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
Q. Can this feat be used to increase the number of attacks a character receives while flurrying?
(Certain participants in other threads appear to think so.)
** spoiler omitted **
Q. Can this feat be used to increase the number of attacks a character receives in a flurry? (Certain participants in other threads appear to think so.)
No you do not get extra attacks beyond what flurry already gives you. The feat merely allows you to use the natural weapon while performing a flurry.
A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.The feat removes the line 'A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows'.
Your opinion.
Without oficial clarification, we will come back to the extensive argument we had before.
Remember, flurry of blows is it's own seperate full round action. Not a standard full attack. The attacks listed are what you get unless the ability specifically mentions flurry of blows.
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Without oficial clarification, we will come back to the extensive argument we had before.
Without it, it is inadvisable to assume you gain a potentially ridiculous ("form of: giant octopus!") number of additional attacks on the basis of one feat.
Note that the word "attack" does not appear anywhere in the text of the feat.
The paradox is that while you can gain additional attacks from other abilities, you are restricted in how many attacks you are entitled to in a flurry (and this is the price you pay for a higher attack bonus and full damage); additionally, since Flurry of Blows is a full-attack action in itself, you have no more "time" in your turn for other attacks you may theoretically be entitled to (unless you can make one of them Swiftly).
(The real reason to take Feral Combat Training is to permit you to substitute a weaker type of weapon for a massively powerful natural weapon -- such as a huge 4d8 bite attack when wildshapped or polymorphed into a giant monster, etc.)
Without oficial clarification, we will come back to the extensive argument we had before.Without it, it is inadvisable to assume you gain a potentially ridiculous ("form of: giant octopus!") number of additional attacks on the basis of one feat.
Note that the word "attack" does not appear anywhere in the text of the feat.
The paradox is that while you can gain additional attacks from other abilities, you are restricted in how many attacks you are entitled to in a flurry (and this is the price you pay for a higher attack bonus and full damage); additionally, since Flurry of Blows is a full-attack action in itself, you have no more "time" in your turn for other attacks you may theoretically be entitled to (unless you can make one of them Swiftly).
(The real reason to take Feral Combat Training is to permit you to substitute a weaker type of weapon for a massively powerful natural weapon -- such as a huge 4d8 bite attack when wildshapped or polymorphed into a giant monster, etc.)
Mate, let's be honest here. You get 2 extra attack at 2 feats cost. Those attacks are still made as secondary attacks, and I don't believe their damage is increased like unnarmed, since they are not EFFECTS.
On top of that you need a form that has 2 natural attacks, or dip in classes that can give you that.If you do the numbers, you'll see that in no way this is overpowered.
You are talking about being wildshaped or polymorphed into a huge monster, if you are a monk, it will increase your base unnarmed damage, and it will be way more wicked then the bite attack you mentioned.
Also, the line about u being able to do a number of attacks as flurry cause there is not enough "time" is a fallacy, cause, as stated earlier if you go 2weapon fighting and have natural attacks but are not a monk, you can already do all that.
Also, the line about u being able to do a number of attacks as flurry cause there is not enough "time" is a fallacy, cause, as stated earlier if you go 2weapon fighting and have natural attacks but are not a monk, you can already do all that.
Or even if you ARE a monk. Since being a monk has no effect on what you just said.
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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From above:
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
I believe the intent is that the word "with" in the feat is meant to indicate that you can Flurry with (i.e., using) your Natural Attack, not Flurry "along with (i.e., in addition to)" your Natural Attack.
I know there's no official word yet, but it seems like some folks are trying to add something to the rules that just isn't there.
From above:
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
I believe the intent is that the word "with" in the feat is meant to indicate that you can Flurry with (i.e., using) your Natural Attack, not Flurry "along with (i.e., in addition to)" your Natural Attack.
I know there's no official word yet, but it seems like some folks are trying to add something to the rules that just isn't there.
That's what I've trying to say all along. And people are saying OMG broken, which is clearly not the case.
I think it allows you to get extra attacks.
Here's why I think that. Under the combat section you can use natural attacks along with attacks with a weapon or unarmed strikes.
From the PRD "You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack"
The monk's Flurry has this exception to that above rule: "A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks."
Feral Combat is "Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature."
So basically I read it that feat allows you to override the restriction under the monk Flurry of blows. It does not say that it only overrides part of that restriction so the "make natural attack in addition to flurry of blows" part would be available for use under the Feral Combat feat. So it seems to me you could do one or the other. You could use a natural attack as part of your flurry or blows or make a natural attack in addition to your flurry of blows.
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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I think it allows you to get extra attacks.
Here's why I think that. Under the combat section you can use natural attacks along with attacks with a weapon or unarmed strikes.
From the PRD "You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack"
The monk's Flurry has this exception to that above rule: "A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks."
Feral Combat is "Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature."
So basically I read it that feat allows you to override the restriction under the monk Flurry of blows. It does not say that it only overrides part of that restriction so the "make natural attack in addition to flurry of blows" part would be available for use under the Feral Combat feat. So it seems to me you could do one or the other. You could use a natural attack as part of your flurry or blows or make a natural attack in addition to your flurry of blows.
Emphasis mine.
Can you define which limb is used in your Flurry of Blows? Can you withhold a limb and still commit a Flurry?
I call shenanigans.
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I think it allows you to get extra attacks.
Here's why I think that. Under the combat section you can use natural attacks along with attacks with a weapon or unarmed strikes.
From the PRD "You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack"
The monk's Flurry has this exception to that above rule: "A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks."
Feral Combat is "Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature."
So basically I read it that feat allows you to override the restriction under the monk Flurry of blows. It does not say that it only overrides part of that restriction so the "make natural attack in addition to flurry of blows" part would be available for use under the Feral Combat feat. So it seems to me you could do one or the other. You could use a natural attack as part of your flurry or blows or make a natural attack in addition to your flurry of blows.
Emphasis mine.
Can you define which limb is used in your Flurry of Blows? Can you withhold a limb and still commit a Flurry?
I call shenanigans.
Yes, you can. That is specifically the point of Flurry of Blows.
That is why in the Flurry of Blows listing it specifically states a monk can make a FoB with both hands full.He simply flurries with the rest of his body then uses his hands (full of claws) to make his natural attacks.
I think it allows you to get extra attacks.
Here's why I think that. Under the combat section you can use natural attacks along with attacks with a weapon or unarmed strikes.
From the PRD "You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack"
The monk's Flurry has this exception to that above rule: "A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks."
Feral Combat is "Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature."
So basically I read it that feat allows you to override the restriction under the monk Flurry of blows. It does not say that it only overrides part of that restriction so the "make natural attack in addition to flurry of blows" part would be available for use under the Feral Combat feat. So it seems to me you could do one or the other. You could use a natural attack as part of your flurry or blows or make a natural attack in addition to your flurry of blows.
Emphasis mine.
Can you define which limb is used in your Flurry of Blows? Can you withhold a limb and still commit a Flurry?
I call shenanigans.
You can make all the flurry attacks with your pinky, if you want.
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Mate, let's be honest here: you're wishing for ponies in an empty pasture.Mate, let's be honest here. You get 2 extra attack at 2 feats cost.Without oficial clarification, we will come back to the extensive argument we had before.Without it, it is inadvisable to assume you gain a potentially ridiculous ("form of: giant octopus!") number of additional attacks on the basis of one feat.
Note that the word "attack" does not appear anywhere in the text of the feat.
Also, the line about u being able to do a number of attacks as flurry cause there is not enough "time" is a fallacy, cause, as stated earlier if you go 2weapon fighting and have natural attacks but are not a monk, you can already do all that.
Well, then you should do that instead of Flurrying.
I.e., a 3rd-level barbarian[beast totem]2/monk[martial artist]1 with TWF, WF:Claws, and Feral Combat Training does not get six attacks. He gets, at most, four, by not flurrying: non-Flurry Unarmed Strike (right foot kick ~ 1x dmg) + 2 hand claws (beast totem lesser) + TWF (left foot kick ~ .5x dmg) = 4 attacks.
If he Flurried, he'd get two attacks as his Flurry of Blows full attack action -- because that's all he gets from monk1. (+1 more from TWF if the GM lets you stack those; there's some debate about that, but I permit it because TWF actually does grant extra attacks, and while Flurry works references TWF, it is not TWF, and hence does not technically violate no-stacking because the applied effects are different; that, and -4 is pretty heinous).
Long-story-short: you're usually better off not flurrying if you have "gain"ed natural weapons.
I think it allows you to get extra attacks.
Regards the "cost" of two feats: this isn't really much of an argument since it proceeds from an implied premise that any combination of two of the hundreds of available feats throughout the game system which amount to [Weapon Focus + N] which do not grant two additional attacks...is something hideously suboptimal in comparison.
The text of the feat does not even contain the word "attacks", so, there is no reason to assume you are being bestowed with additional attacks.
Feral Combat Training, by-the-text, does not emphatically grant you anything beyond enlarging the total set of weapon types a monk may flurry with or apply IUS-prerequisite feats toward.
Anything else is wishing-for-ponies.
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That's what I've trying to say all along....From above: Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
I believe the intent is that the word "with" in the feat is meant to indicate that you can Flurry with (i.e., using) your Natural Attack, not Flurry "along with (i.e., in addition to)" your Natural Attack.
I know there's no official word yet, but it seems like some folks are trying to add something to the rules that just isn't there.
Xum, you clearly argued ("Mate, let's be honest here...") in support of the theory that FCT could grant extra attacks in your reply to me; yet a few posts later are maintaining "all along" agreement with Larry's interpretation that you don't receive additional attacks.
0_o
That's what I've trying to say all along....From above: Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
I believe the intent is that the word "with" in the feat is meant to indicate that you can Flurry with (i.e., using) your Natural Attack, not Flurry "along with (i.e., in addition to)" your Natural Attack.
I know there's no official word yet, but it seems like some folks are trying to add something to the rules that just isn't there.
Xum, you clearly argued ("Mate, let's be honest here...") in support of the theory that FCT could grant extra attacks in your reply to me; yet a few posts later are maintaining "all along" agreement with Larry's interpretation that you don't receive additional attacks.
0_o
Read it wrong there, sorry.
Wow, you allow THAT and you are saying that using natural attacks with flurry is OP!? Come ON!
You are saying -4 is heinous but the -5 for 2 lousy (1d4 to 1d6) extra attacks with half strength and paying 2 feats is extreme!? I don't get that, I'm sorry.
"as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). "
To me (and everyone else I know) it's pretty clear that you can't buy TWF style and stack it. Actually, that's one of the reasons they changed the text on it from 3.5. No, I can't find a reference to this.
I think it allows you to get extra attacks.
Here's why I think that. Under the combat section you can use natural attacks along with attacks with a weapon or unarmed strikes.
From the PRD "You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack"
The monk's Flurry has this exception to that above rule: "A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks."
Feral Combat is "Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature."
So basically I read it that feat allows you to override the restriction under the monk Flurry of blows. It does not say that it only overrides part of that restriction so the "make natural attack in addition to flurry of blows" part would be available for use under the Feral Combat feat. So it seems to me you could do one or the other. You could use a natural attack as part of your flurry or blows or make a natural attack in addition to your flurry of blows.
I agree with this guy :)
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Wow, you allow THAT and you are saying that using natural attacks with flurry is OP!? Come ON!
That's not what I said. (My argument is that FCT does not grant additional attacks. TWF, otoh, could, because granting additonal attacks is what the feat does -- "You can fight with a weapon wielded in each of your hands. You can make one extra attack each round with the secondary weapon" -- the only argument is whether of not it stacks with Flurry; and I see no reason why not since TWF does not cost additional time.)
That's not what I said. (My argument is that FCT does not grant additional attacks. TWF, otoh, could, because granting additonal attacks is what the feat does -- "You can fight with a weapon wielded in each of your hands. You can make one extra attack each round with the secondary weapon" -- the only argument is whether of not it stacks with Flurry; and I see no reason why not since TWF does not cost additional time.)Wow, you allow THAT and you are saying that using natural attacks with flurry is OP!? Come ON!
Time is a bad argument.
It doesn't work cause, for all purposes and effects a flurrying monk is like a twf guy. This has been discussed before.
Now, I believe you and I are going in circles. You don't think FCT works in addition to flurry (although every class could get extra attacks from natural weapons without a 2 feat cost), I believe it does. So, unless some new light or better opnion and arguments come along, I don't see how we are gonna solve this.
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Peeve time:
It doesn't work cause, for all purposes and effects a flurrying monk is like a twf guy. This has been discussed before.
Now, I believe you and I are going in circles. You don't think FCT works in addition to flurry....
Undefined, arbitrary words drive me nuts -- they effectively destroy communication.
I.e., we're having a disagreement over what certain phrases mean in the context of FCT and flurry (and, one presumes, it is possibly to objectively arrive at a single conclusion)...but instead you accuse me of believing that something doesn't "work", without specifying exactly what it is you're referring to.
-- This is why I almost always reply point-by-point, with quotation.
I believe it does. So, unless some new light or better opnion and arguments come along, I don't see how we are gonna solve this.
Well, the dilemma is quite easily "solved" by GMs telling players that feats do not grant additional attacks unless they say they do; and the inclusion of the phrasing "additional attack" within a feat's text is a pretty big tip off that they are indeed granted, while their absence is an equally big tip off that they are not.
Peeve time:It doesn't work cause, for all purposes and effects a flurrying monk is like a twf guy. This has been discussed before.
Now, I believe you and I are going in circles. You don't think FCT works in addition to flurry....
Undefined, arbitrary words drive me nuts -- they effectively destroy communication.
I.e., we're having a disagreement over what certain phrases mean in the context of FCT and flurry (and, one presumes, it is possibly to objectively arrive at a single conclusion)...but instead you accuse me of believing that something doesn't "work", without specifying exactly what it is you're referring to.
-- This is why I almost always reply point-by-point, with quotation.
I believe it does. So, unless some new light or better opnion and arguments come along, I don't see how we are gonna solve this.Well, the dilemma is quite easily "solved" by GMs telling players that feats do not grant additional attacks unless they say they do; and the inclusion of the phrasing "additional attack" within a feat's text is a pretty big tip off that they are indeed granted, while their absence is an equally big tip off that they are not.
I'll try to make it better. Not my intention to "peeve" you off.
Now, the monk text says:
" A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks."
The Feral Combat training states:
"Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature."
I believe the main problem with the interpretation of said feat is the bolded word "WITH".
My believe is that it works in both monk stances, cause on both sentences in the monk entry it states "...such weapons as part of a flurry of blows" and "...attacks in addition to his flurry of blows".
Now, in no part of that sentences the word WITH is used, and this leads me to believe that the word WITH stated in the feat description allows you to use both stances, that is to totally eliminate that part of the monk flurry of blows entry.
I think it's reasonable to assume that. Does that make it easier for you to see my point of view?
P.S.: Mike, thanks for making me write a better post. I'm a bit lazy and being self thought in english makes it a little hard for me to do so.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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From above:
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
I believe the intent is that the word "with" in the feat is meant to indicate that you can Flurry with (i.e., using) your Natural Attack, not Flurry "along with (i.e., in addition to)" your Natural Attack.
I know there's no official word yet, but it seems like some folks are trying to add something to the rules that just isn't there.
I can't make any 'official' clarification, but I can say that when I penned it I intended it to be exactly as you suggest.
I can't make any 'official' clarification, but I can say that when I penned it I intended it to be exactly as you suggest.From above:
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
I believe the intent is that the word "with" in the feat is meant to indicate that you can Flurry with (i.e., using) your Natural Attack, not Flurry "along with (i.e., in addition to)" your Natural Attack.
I know there's no official word yet, but it seems like some folks are trying to add something to the rules that just isn't there.
Ok, cool. Can you specify 'by your point of view" how the EFFECT word works here?
Increase damage from the monk applies for instance?
And if the feat works the way you say, I see little reason to ever get it, too many feats for too little a benefit.
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I believe the main problem with the interpretation of said feat is the bolded word "WITH"Feral Combat Training
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
<raised eyebrow>
Crusader's Flurry
You learned to use your deity's favored weapon as part of your martial arts form.
Prerequisites: Channel energy class feature, flurry of blows class feature, Weapon Focus with your deity's favored melee weapon.
Benefit: You can use your deity's favored weapon as if it were a monk weapon.
You will observe that the prerequisites required and benefits bestowed by Crusader's Flurry are almost completely identical to that of Feral Combat Training, with the substantive difference being emphasis upon a deity's favored weapon as opposed to a natural one.
So, do you think Crusader's Flurry is implying that you should receive an additional greataxe attack during your flurry if you dipped a level of cleric to worship Angradd and took WF in the weapon?
I believe the main problem with the interpretation of said feat is the bolded word "WITH"Feral Combat Training
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
<raised eyebrow>
Crusader's Flurry
You learned to use your deity's favored weapon as part of your martial arts form.
Prerequisites: Channel energy class feature, flurry of blows class feature, Weapon Focus with your deity's favored melee weapon.
Benefit: You can use your deity's favored weapon as if it were a monk weapon.
You will observe that the prerequisites required and benefits bestowed by Crusader's Flurry are almost completely identical to that of Feral Combat Training, with the substantive difference being emphasis upon a deity's favored weapon as opposed to a natural one.
So, do you think Crusader's Flurry is implying that you should receive an additional greataxe attack during your flurry if you dipped a level of cleric to worship Angradd and took WF in the weapon?
I don't see how this feat is writen similar in any way to FCT.
BTW, this feat actually makes my case, somewhat, cause if FCT was made to work as you say, it would state the following "You can use the selected natural weapon as if it were a monk weapon" and it doesn't say anything even remotelly resembling that.But no, I don't think that. Cause of the simple fact that nearly nothing adds extra weapon attacks to your normal rate of attacks.
But Natural weapons already have that quality, they are added in adition to any attacks you might have from increased BAB for ANY class... except for monk. I understand why they did that, but isn't it reasonable to assume that an expensive feat could have been created to supercede this? (and I say expensive cause of the requirements to add ONE type of natural attack)
P.S.: Too bad u didn't think my post was a winner, at least to explain my point of view.
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I don't see how this feat is writen similar in any way to FCT.
Oh, come on...
* Prerequisites: Weapon Focus + (either a deity's weapon or a natural weapon)
* Benefit: use the weapon in a flurry
* Normal: the weapon is not one you are otherwise permitted to use in a flurry.
But no, I don't think that. Cause of the simple fact that nearly nothing adds extra weapon attacks to your normal rate of attacks.
But Natural weapons already have that quality, they are added in adition to any attacks you might have from....<zot>
Irrelevant. While flurrying, you get X number of attacks with weapons you are permitted to use during a flurry. X may be fewer than the theoretical maximum number of attacks you might otherwise be able to accomplish by some other style of fighting.
As a GM I would not permit you to have more attacks than X while flurrying unless you were subject to some other benefit which specifically entitled you to more attacks per turn. Neither Feral Combat Training nor Crusader's Flurry contain text bestowing additional attacks. Two Weapon Fighting, Rapid Shot* and Haste do.
(*side-note: a Zen-archer cannot Rapid Shot while bow-flurrying, but a monk[non-Zen]/cleric[Erastil] with Crusader's Flurry can!)
I don't see how this feat is writen similar in any way to FCT.Oh, come on...
* Prerequisites: Weapon Focus + (either a deity's weapon or a natural weapon)
* Benefit: use the weapon in a flurry
* Normal: the weapon is not one you are otherwise permitted to use in a flurry.
But no, I don't think that. Cause of the simple fact that nearly nothing adds extra weapon attacks to your normal rate of attacks.
But Natural weapons already have that quality, they are added in adition to any attacks you might have from....<zot>
Irrelevant. While flurrying, you get X number of attacks with weapons you are permitted to use during a flurry. X may be fewer than the theoretical maximum number of attacks you might otherwise be able to accomplish by some other style of fighting.
As a GM I would not permit you to have more attacks than X while flurrying unless you were subject to some other benefit which specifically entitled you to more attacks per turn. Neither Feral Combat Training nor Crusader's Flurry contain text bestowing additional attacks. Two Weapon Fighting, Rapid Shot* and Haste do.
(*side-note: a Zen-archer cannot Rapid Shot while bow-flurrying, but a monk[non-Zen]/cleric[Erastil] with Crusader's Flurry can!)
Natural attacks have text bestowing additional attacks, why don't you read that?
You are ignoring important parts of my posts mate.
The pre-req are irrelevant. The text of the feat says nothing that is even close to FCT.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Ok, cool. Can you specify 'by your point of view" how the EFFECT word works here?
Increase damage from the monk applies for instance?
And if the feat works the way you say, I see little reason to ever get it, too many feats for too little a benefit.
To be honest it's not super powerful. If you have a character you are building and have improved unarmed strike and natural attacks then it makes sense. It's not going to be something huge you build a character off of. If you want to build an alchemist or a druid who uses combat styles it might make sense too, but it's not going to be off the hook powerful. A half orc monk with tusks could make good use of it also for bypassing slashing and piercing DR. In general, it enables a lot of small things, not something super powerful.
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I don't see how this feat is writen similar in any way to FCT.Oh, come on...
* Prerequisites: Weapon Focus + (either a deity's weapon or a natural weapon)
* Benefit: use the weapon in a flurry
* Normal: the weapon is not one you are otherwise permitted to use in a flurry.
But no, I don't think that. Cause of the simple fact that nearly nothing adds extra weapon attacks to your normal rate of attacks.
But Natural weapons already have that quality, they are added in adition to any attacks you might have from....<zot>
Irrelevant. While flurrying, you get X number of attacks with weapons you are permitted to use during a flurry. X may be fewer than the theoretical maximum number of attacks you might otherwise be able to accomplish by some other style of fighting.
As a GM I would not permit you to have more attacks than X while flurrying unless you were subject to some other benefit which specifically entitled you to more attacks per turn. Neither Feral Combat Training nor Crusader's Flurry contain text bestowing additional attacks. Two Weapon Fighting, Rapid Shot* and Haste do.
(*side-note: a Zen-archer cannot Rapid Shot while bow-flurrying, but a monk[non-Zen]/cleric[Erastil] with Crusader's Flurry can!)
At this point, it seems that you're just trying not to acknowledge that someone else's point of view might be valid. Because at this point in the discussion, without official word, it doesn't really matter why any of us think it should go one way or another. The wording is not clear, the meaning is not explicit, and until it is made so, people will use whatever interpretation they like best in their games.
However, I do have to point out your logical flaws, since they bug me as much as imprecise word use bothers you. The rules regarding natural attacks provide for them to be made in addition to iterative attacks. This fulfills your requirement of something that specifically allows for additional attacks. The interpretation that feral combat negates the element of the monk entry that prevents natural attacks with flurry means that the normal rules now apply. According to that interpretation of feral, there's no reason the monk wouldn't get the natural attacks. Or, from the other direction, the only thing about the flurry entry that prevents additional attacks is the line about natural attacks. If the feat overrides that line, then there is nothing preventing any method from adding attacks.
Also *as two-weapon fighting* would also allow the inclusion of natural attacks into the attack chain.
Secondly, prerequisites have no bearing on the benefit text of a feat, and it is the benefit text that defines what a feat does. Trying to use them as "proof" of how a feat should work is just incorrect. For example, Prerequisite: Str 15. What exactly does this feat do? If prerequisites could be used in the way you want, you should be able to tell me. Since you can't, it's evident that prerequisites don't describe how a feat should work. Also, the book itself is specific about this, at the beginning of the feat section.
Look up the webster-merriam definition of with.
You'll see that *cough* with 28 different meanings behind the word, it really is a fruitless effort to argue one particular meaning when there are no additional defining elements.
I don't see how this feat is writen similar in any way to FCT.Oh, come on...
* Prerequisites: Weapon Focus + (either a deity's weapon or a natural weapon)
* Benefit: use the weapon in a flurry
* Normal: the weapon is not one you are otherwise permitted to use in a flurry.
But no, I don't think that. Cause of the simple fact that nearly nothing adds extra weapon attacks to your normal rate of attacks.
But Natural weapons already have that quality, they are added in adition to any attacks you might have from....<zot>
Irrelevant. While flurrying, you get X number of attacks with weapons you are permitted to use during a flurry. X may be fewer than the theoretical maximum number of attacks you might otherwise be able to accomplish by some other style of fighting.
As a GM I would not permit you to have more attacks than X while flurrying unless you were subject to some other benefit which specifically entitled you to more attacks per turn. Neither Feral Combat Training nor Crusader's Flurry contain text bestowing additional attacks. Two Weapon Fighting, Rapid Shot* and Haste do.
(*side-note: a Zen-archer cannot Rapid Shot while bow-flurrying, but a monk[non-Zen]/cleric[Erastil] with Crusader's Flurry can!)
At this point, it seems that you're just trying not to acknowledge that someone else's point of view might be valid. Because at this point in the discussion, without official word, it doesn't really matter why any of us think it should go one way or another. The wording is not clear, the meaning is not explicit, and until it is made so, people will use whatever interpretation they like best in their games.
However, I do have to point out your logical flaws, since they bug me as much as imprecise word use bothers you. The rules regarding natural attacks provide for them to be made in addition to iterative attacks. This fulfills your requirement of something that specifically allows for additional...
Thank you.
To be honest it's not super powerful. If you have a character you are building and have improved unarmed strike and natural attacks then it makes sense. It's not going to be something huge you build a character off of. If you want to build an alchemist or a druid who uses combat styles it might make sense too, but it's not going to be off the hook powerful. A half orc monk with tusks could make good use of it also for bypassing slashing and piercing DR. In general, it enables a lot of small things, not something super powerful.Ok, cool. Can you specify 'by your point of view" how the EFFECT word works here?
Increase damage from the monk applies for instance?
And if the feat works the way you say, I see little reason to ever get it, too many feats for too little a benefit.
Ok Dennis-san. Thing is, the way I say it works is not uber powerful either. I don't see how 2 more attacks at half str and -5 to hit will break game.
The way you say it works it's a VERY dificult thing to use, and I gotta say, unles it's a game with extra feats, I don't see anyone getting it. And I have problems with sub-par feats, weak feats.
But, to each his own.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Ok Dennis-san. Thing is, the way I say it works is not uber powerful either. I don't see how 2 more attacks at half str and -5 to hit will break game.
The way you say it works it's a VERY dificult thing to use, and I gotta say, unles it's a game with extra feats, I don't see anyone getting it. And I have problems with sub-par feats, weak feats.
But, to each his own.
I was just clarifying what the intent was when it was written, not commenting on power levels or whatever else.
This feat isn't any more difficult than taking any other feat in the game. You meet the prereqs and you take it. You are under the impression that it should be some sort of destination feat which you set up by taking other feats and this just isn't really the way it was written.
Mate, let's be honest here: you're wishing for ponies in an empty pasture.Mate, let's be honest here. You get 2 extra attack at 2 feats cost.Without oficial clarification, we will come back to the extensive argument we had before.Without it, it is inadvisable to assume you gain a potentially ridiculous ("form of: giant octopus!") number of additional attacks on the basis of one feat.
Note that the word "attack" does not appear anywhere in the text of the feat.
Also, the line about u being able to do a number of attacks as flurry cause there is not enough "time" is a fallacy, cause, as stated earlier if you go 2weapon fighting and have natural attacks but are not a monk, you can already do all that.Well, then you should do that instead of Flurrying.
I.e., a 3rd-level barbarian[beast totem]2/monk[martial artist]1 with TWF, WF:Claws, and Feral Combat Training does not get six attacks. He gets, at most, four, by not flurrying: non-Flurry Unarmed Strike (right foot kick ~ 1x dmg) + 2 hand claws (beast totem lesser) + TWF (left foot kick ~ .5x dmg) = 4 attacks.
If he Flurried, he'd get two attacks as his Flurry of Blows full attack action -- because that's all he gets from monk1. (+1 more from TWF if the GM lets you stack those; there's some debate about that, but I permit it because TWF actually does grant extra attacks, and while Flurry works references TWF, it is not TWF, and hence does not technically violate no-stacking because the applied effects are different; that, and -4 is pretty heinous).
Long-story-short: you're usually better off not flurrying if you have "gain"ed natural weapons.
...I think it allows you to get extra attacks.
Regards the "cost" of two feats: this isn't really much of an argument since it proceeds from an implied premise that any combination of two of the hundreds of available feats throughout the game system which
No, simply following the rules as written. No wishing here, I don't really care as I never play monks. But to do anything else is house ruling.
Using Natural Attacks with Weapons or Unarmed strike: from the PRD under Combat
"You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties."
Under the Monk Class Flurry of Blows in the PRD
"A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks."
Feral combat Feat PRD:
"You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature."
I don't see how this is not clear. Basically you have a generic rule that allows natural attack to be used with weapon attacks or unarmed strikes. The monk has specific rule saying you can't use natural attack as part of flurry of blows or in addition to flurry of blows. The feral combat feat says natural attack work with Flurry but doesn't specify exactly how as it could be part of the flurry or in addition to the flurry. Since the rule doesn't specify one way or the other you fall back to the generic rule under the combat section. Basically remove the restriction under the monk class.
The only way I can see it being confusing is if you don't like the idea of what the feat is actually doing so you are reading the rules incorrectly.
Using Natural Attacks with Weapons or Unarmed strike: from the PRD under Combat
"You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties."Under the Monk Class Flurry of Blows in the PRD
"A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks."Feral combat Feat PRD:
"You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature.Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the...
Now THAT, we agree on.
as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Dennis, as long as you're in here answering questions. Would a monk using this feat augment the damage of his natural attacks in a similar way to the damage increase on his unarmed strikes? So, a changeling with this feat and claws... would her claw attacks deal 1d6 (or 1d8, depending on the reading) damage? (In addition, would anything else done with claws apply the normal monk bonuses, such as the ability to deal non-lethal damage with no penalty?)
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Ok Dennis-san. Thing is, the way I say it works is not uber powerful either. I don't see how 2 more attacks at half str and -5 to hit will break game.And if the feat works the way you say, I see little reason to ever get it, too many feats for too little a benefit.To be honest it's not super powerful.
Well, I suppose if the ability to potentially do over eighty points of damage off four attacks at 4th or 5th level doesn't adequately meet the definition of "super powerful", you could always go with the halfling who can do it at 3rd off five attacks (just as soon as he murders the rich guy and then goes shopping) without all those annoying feats and monk limitations.