How would you spend your 20 points to build a human paladin.
What kind of paladin are you looking for?
Range? Melee? Other?
Prob traditional sword and board but for sure melee. We have always rolled char frist point buy trying to get a feel for it.
Are you going for any prestige class? Holy Vindicator, Stalwart Defender ect?
nope mostly stright pally maybe splash a few lvls fighter in for feats and quilfactions.
I built a Human Paladin for Society Play a few weeks ago and ended up with this as of level two.
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Str 16
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 08
Cha 16
Power Attack, Cleave, Reactionary, Dangerously Curious
I grabbed a two-handed sword and the heaviest armor I could buy and just waded in. I've subsequently bought wands of shield and CLW to help with AC and between fight healing.
So far I'm very happy with the way it's turning out.
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I built a Human Paladin for Society Play a few weeks ago and ended up with this as of level two.
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Str 16
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 08
Cha 16Power Attack, Cleave, Reactionary, Dangerously Curious
I grabbed a two-handed sword and the heaviest armor I could buy and just waded in. I've subsequently bought wands of shield and CLW to help with AC and between fight healing.
So far I'm very happy with the way it's turning out.
8 wis for a paladin? I guess youll be spending your points on wis as you get them if you want to cast your spells.
8 wis for a paladin? I guess youll be spending your points on wis as you get them if you want to cast your spells.
Paladins use Charisma for spell casting now
Paladins use Charisma for spell casting now
8 wis for a paladin? I guess youll be spending your points on wis as you get them if you want to cast your spells.
True, but even knowing that Wis wasn't vital (especially once you hit lv 2) I still had to force myself to drop it.
I hate dumping stats.
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Not my speciality, so I will post one of my players builds.
Human Paladin
Str 14
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 17 +2 (19)
Shield Focus and Exotic weapon Falcata at level 1
Extra Lay on hands at level 3
At 4th he put the extra point in to Cha to maximise his paladin abilities.
If you wanted to min max you could drop Int to 7 as it would give an extra 2 points, and you would still only get 2 skill points.
It worked better than the paladin who was more martially based, but he was playing more of a defensive/ healer role, not a damage dealer.
Now dropping Int is a non-starter for me. If I found a character concept I liked I might do it, but only having four skill points is killing me. Especially as I'm coming to Paladin from mostly Monks and Wizards.
There are just to many skill checks in Society play for me to think it's in any way worth it.
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How would you spend your 20 points to build a human paladin.
And now, for something completely different....
STR:07
DEX+18
CON:14
INT:12
WIS:08
CHA:15
Traits: Dangerously Curious,
01 figh1 [dragoon] Mounted Combat, SF:Ride, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot
02 pala1 [aura of good, smite 1/day, detect evil]
03 figh2 Rapid Reload, Weapon Finesse
04 monk1 CHA>16, [sohei] IUS, flurry, Ride-by Attack
05 pala2 [divine grace, lay on hands], Indomitable Mount
06 pala3 [aura of courage, divine health, mercy]
07 pala4 [smite 2/day, channel positive energy], 1st, Piranha Strike
08 pala5 CHA>17, [bonded mount]
09 pala6 [mercy], Spirited Charge
10 pala7 [smite 3/day] 2nd
11 pala8 [aura of resolve], Boon Companion
12 pala9 [mercy]
Theme: "Joan of Arc"-style (physically frail human female who makes up for it by 4th)
* Buys Heavy Warhorse and rides it until 8th; LoH, Mounted Combat and Indomitable Mount keep it alive.
* Rapid Shot/Rapid Reload w/light crossbow at 3rd (upgrade to Keen/Seeking).
* Flurries with an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists at 4th.
* Spirited Charge with +1/Keen/Agile scimitar at 9th.
* UMDs wands of Mage Armor (buys two).
Prob traditional sword and board but for sure melee. We have always rolled char frist point buy trying to get a feel for it.What kind of paladin are you looking for?
Range? Melee? Other?
Sword & Board
14 Str, 16 Dex, 12 Con, 10 Int, 8 Wis, 16 Cha (+2 race)Feats: Improved Shield Bash, Two-Weapon Fighting
Good AC and quickly does a lot of damage when using Smite Evil. Scimitar and light shield (cast bless weapon on the scimitar and invest in a +x bashing light shield as you level up; Shield Slam and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting are worth looking at after 6th level).
Two-handed
16 Str, 14 Dex, 12 Con, 10 Int, 8 Wis, 16 Cha (+2 race)
Feats: Cleave, Power Attack
AC is a bit lower, but does more damage when not using Smite Evil. Falchion is eventually better than greatsword (bless weapon and Improved Critical when using Power Attack and Smite Evil can cause significant damage).
Polearm/Trip
14 Str, 14 Dex, 12 Con, 13 Int, 10 Wis, 16 Cha (+2 race)
Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Not as much damage, but can hinder opponents. Greater Trip after 6th level is definitely worth taking.
Those are a fair number of solid melee builds. If you're going with the low wisdom, I recommend talking to the DM about using the paladin modification in the complete champion handbook. All it does is strip the paladin of all spellcasting ability but grants a bonus feat each time you can cast a level of a spell. So when you would originally be able to cast level one spells, you can't cast them but you get a bonus feat. When you would originally be able to cat level 2 spells, you can't cast them but gain another bonus feat. Good modification if you're going pure melee.
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How would you spend your 20 points to build a human paladin.
STR 16 (14 point buy + 2 human)
DEX 16CON 14
INT 7
WIS 9
CHA 14
Then add every stat bump to STR, get a belt of STR, get a headband of CHA, and get Mithral Full Plate with a Heavy Steel Shield. At lower levels your AC will be decent, but once you hit level 7-ish your AC will be solid with solid damage to back it up. Also, with your DEX you will be decent with a bow (I'd recommend picking up a mwk composite Longbow when you can and then add a +1 enhancement at some point).
Your INT will leave you with only 1 or 2 skill ranks per level depending on how you spend your favored class bonus, but as a paladin you are not generally expected to be the skill monkey. And it is easy enough to drop a spare point in INT or WIS if you would like to boost up will saves (already high for pally) or get some more skills.
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Depends on how min-maxy you want to be.
Str: 18
Int: 7
Wis: 7
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Chr: 16
Would be "optimal"; your Wis penalty is easily circumvented by cha, and 12 Dex is perfect for Full Plate. Some would frown upon the tradition of the "idiot pally", but 2 skill points is plenty for pallies (diplomacy and 1 to fill in for "flavors"), and starting with an 18 strength makes you more "melee powerhouse" low levels.
Pallies are also far more effective dropping the shield for a two-handed weapon and swinging hard; to self-heal you can only use a light shield, and that's not worth the huge damage bump from weilding a Greatsword or Luceren Hammer.
The 16 dex people want you to two-hand with the shield (a very feat-intensive line that won't pay off for a long time) and get Mithril Full (while nice, 2 AC for 12000 gold is NOT a good trade). You're far better off just going Power Attack / Furious Focus / Cleave / Cleaving Finish, then picking up some random other feats to improve yourself.
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The 16 dex people want you to two-hand with the shield (a very feat-intensive line that won't pay off for a long time) and get Mithril Full (while nice, 2 AC for 12000 gold is NOT a good trade). You're far better off just going Power Attack / Furious Focus / Cleave / Cleaving Finish, then picking up some random other feats to improve yourself.
You are correct as far as AC goes it is more costly until you get to the point you can have either +4 mithral Full Plate(26,500 gp) or +5 Full Plate (26,650 gp). However, you have higher AC to begin with (when you are at higher risk of sudden death from being hit more than once in a round), better touch AC throughout, better CMD, better Reflex save, better ranged attack bonus, and better in a variety of skills(an effective +5 to DEX based skills due to +2 DEX and -3 Armor Check and +3 to swim and climb). I admit you won't be using the skills very often, but it is always hilarious when a Full Plate wearing paladin manages to sneak past someone.
I don't think that the two weapon fighting route (to bash with you shield) is necessary as a reason to take the higher DEX and get mithral Full Plate. DEX is an amazing stat. Having the extra DEX ups your reflex save, CMD, touch AC, a variety of skills, and your ranged attack rolls. In addition, mithral reduces your armor check which helps get the all important stealth a little higher! However, I would caution that you won't be getting the mithral Full Plate until level 7 as it costs 10,500 gp. Unless your GM allows you to spend more than half your gold on a single item.
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STR 16 (14 point buy + 2 human)
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 7
WIS 9
CHA 14Then add every stat bump to STR, get a belt of STR, get a headband of CHA, and get Mithral Full Plate with a Heavy Steel Shield. At lower levels your AC will be decent, but once you hit level 7-ish your AC will be solid with solid damage to back it up. Also, with your DEX you will be decent with a bow (I'd recommend picking up a mwk composite Longbow when you can and then add a +1 enhancement at some point).
Your INT will leave you with only 1 or 2 skill ranks per level depending on how you spend your favored class bonus, but as a paladin you are not generally expected to be the skill monkey. And it is easy enough to drop a spare point in INT or WIS if you would like to boost up will saves (already high for pally) or get some more skills.
Problems I see with this concept (but they are fixable):
1) It's a PITA to deal with a getting rid of a heavy shield if you intend to switch-hit with a longbow.
2) MFP is bloody expensive, and while "snug" at DEX 16, doesn't permit any further dexterity increase from a Belt of Physical Perfection +2. More importantly, MFP permanently saddles you with a -2 armor-check penalty to all of your dexterity skills -- the most important of which, for a paladin, is Ride. (Unlike a cavalier, paladins do not get to ignore their armor penalties while on their mounts.)
3) MFP is still medium armor, and thus slows you down.
4) 2 skills/level is not enough if you intend to do anything other than gab on foot. (Since paladin mounts are summoned and therefore can't ever be "left behind", to forfeit the use of such a great class benefit is IMO seriously suboptimal.)
- - - - Fix:
traits: Armor Expert, Dangerously Curious
STR:14
DEX+16
CON:14
INT:12 (four skills per level)
WIS:07
CHA:15 (all bumps)
Concept: You are not trying to be a DPR juggernaut; your role instead is mobile flex-fighter who is equally adept at melee, plinking, and high-AC corridor-blocking. You don't try to out-damage fighters and barbarians (save versus evil), and rely on your swift-action Lay on Hands ability to out-last opponents in battles of attrition.
Build (I could multiclass here, but will refrain for once and portray a straight-class): all paladin levels.
1. Quick Draw, Mounted Combat
-- Your Ride skill now keeps a heavy warhorse alive, and it grants you an elevation bonus and three additional melee attacks. Quick Draw permits you to free-action equip and stow a Quick Draw Light Shield (which has advantage over a buckler in that you do not lose AC while using two-handers), and cycle bow/sword/bow/etc without having to drop things on the ground.
3. Combat Reflexes
-- Duh.
5. Indomitable Mount
-- Substitute your Ride check for mount's saving-throw once per round.
7. Power Attack
-- It's worth having now.
9. Ride By Attack
11 Spirited Charge
-- You are fighting incredibly dangerous reach-monster more and more often.
Equipment: mithral quick draw light shield, mithral breastplate, lance, adamantine heavy mace, cold iron greatsword, keen falchion, mithral longsword, kukri, STR+3 composite longbow, Scabbard of Vigor (several), Belt of Giant Strength (upgraded STR>DEX>CON to Physical Perfection), Headband of Alluring Charisma, Circlet of Persuasion, Silver Bracelet of Smiting, Boots of Speed, Turquoise Sphere Ioun stone, Scarlet and Blue Ioun stone,
...Most Important skill: Ride
...Other important skills: Handle Animal, Use Magic Device, Acrobatics, Escape Artist, Sense Motive
...some ranks: Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge
Advantages: zero armor check penalty, higher saves, more accurate smites, more defensible mount (due to higher skills)
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Your Mithril Full Plate argument works at the very high; but not at the levels most people play (through about 10-11). There you're comparing +3 Plate Mail (10600) to a Mithril Full Plate (same price). Which for the record is fine (1 AC for 2 Armor check penalty and the ability to run is a fine tradeoff). But the levels before that you're comparing +1 and +2 armor to ... someone saving and wearing his non-magical full plate (or a breastplate if he'd rather not have the AC penalty instead of 1 AC).
So it's a long-term payoff, and the gain is very low. For armor purposes, unless you're starting mid-high, it's "not worth it". It also asks you for a cut on your damage output permanently.
I think some of these builds don't take into account how nerfed the high Dex builds (as above) are in the lowers levels (Str 14 will be permanerfed, especially if they bump cha, but most are 16 Str, which will hurt less at high levels). Paladin has 2 big jobs, do damage and hold the front line. Thanks to great healing he does the latter amazingly; he has to do the former well so he proves threatening even when he is NOT in "smite hyper-damage" mode.
STR: 18 DEX: 12 CON: 14 INT: 7 WIS: 10 CHA: 15
Gump sat alone at the bar in the park
We're gonna kill some demons some stranger did remark
Grabbing his sword and donning his gauntlets
He asked if we had time to stop for chocholate
He's gump, he's gump, he's gump, He'll cleave your head.
He's gump he's gump, he's gump, he slays undead.
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Your Mithril Full Plate argument works at the very high; but not at the levels most people play (through about 10-11). There you're comparing +3 Plate Mail (10600) to a Mithril Full Plate (same price). Which for the record is fine (1 AC for 2 Armor check penalty and the ability to run is a fine tradeoff). But the levels before that you're comparing +1 and +2 armor to ... someone saving and wearing his non-magical full plate (or a breastplate if he'd rather not have the AC penalty instead of 1 AC).
If you're mounted, you can immediate-action use the mount as cover AC+4 when something particularly disastrous is coming your way (i.e., GM rolls a 20, is about to confirm). But if your DEX sucks and your Ride sucks (because of crappy INT and and an armor-check penalty), then you're probably not on a mount (because it's dead, or you took the tantalizing but tactically inferior Weapon Bond), which means your paladin is just a fighter with half the feats.
Why you guys give up on your mounts I'll never understand.
Why you guys give up on your mounts I'll never understand.
Some of us are still playing dungeons and dragons
Emphasis on the dungeon. Horses can be a pain in the rear to get INTO the dungeon, and then it can be very hard to charge with a large creature in narrow confines. Its why a halfling or gnome paladin is a good idea: on the spreadsheet it looks horrible but it works out great on the battlemat.
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That's why Dangerously Curious is an almost auto-shoe-in Trait for any mounted concept who isn't a druid -- you buy a wand of Reduce Animal (4500gp) and UMD it. (If you're a paladin this is even less of a problem as you simply summon the darn thing after passing the dungeon bottleneck, which is usually at the entrance in most PFS mods.)
...not being able to charge constantly isn't a problem in my book (because it means the monster can't either, and it's more likely to have Pounce than you are), because I've never considered Spirited Charge to be a primary reason for having one. (Primary reasons: getting a bonus to attack from elevation, 50ft move instead of 20ft in heavy armor, threatening twelves squares as opposed to eight with a one-hander if the mount is large, portable wall of AC+4 cover, and a means to trick brainless monsters into attacking something they generally will automiss provided you have an astronomical Ride score.)
you buy a wand of Reduce Animal (4500gp) and UMD it
and until you hit the point where that's a feasible purchase? Or if you don't have a campaign with a magic mart? Thats not something your casters can just whip out for you by skipping on the pre reqs, you need a druid with craft wand to make that sucker.
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you buy a wand of Reduce Animal (4500gp) and UMD it
and until you hit the point where that's a feasible purchase? Or if you don't have a campaign with a magic mart? Thats not something your casters can just whip out for you by skipping on the pre reqs, you need a druid with craft wand to make that sucker.
More important than the availability of the spell is that once your mount is reduced in size then you must also be reduced in size to be able to ride your medium mount. If you want a mount you should either be very sure you are going to have plenty of room to gallop or choose a small character with a medium sized mount.
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you buy a wand of Reduce Animal (4500gp) and UMD itand until you hit the point where that's a feasible purchase?
That's the level 1-5 game. Sometimes you just have to sigh and block the corridor on foot on full-def in your big shiny armor while everyone stands behinds you and shoots over your head while you Swift-action LoH to heal the occasional wound as the bad guys desperately flail against your 25 AC.
Boring, but insanely effective.
Or if you don't have a campaign with a magic mart?...you need a druid with craft wand to make that sucker.
<shrug> I have no advice for situations in which the GM runs a game where all classes are suboptimal behind lunkhead barbarians.
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I like mounted paladins; don't get me wrong. But it's a very specific build to make it good. The weapon perk is also very tempting, and scales better to high levels. As stated, if you play a small character with a mount you can get it in dungeons (and synergy with trippers + high-damage charge). Otherwise the mount does relatively little for a pally; unless your GM allows special mounts (lions); in most areas it's hard to set up charge lines and maneuver around. As iconic as it is, the sword-and-shield mounted pally is generally a terrible build in play.
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That's the level 1-5 game. Sometimes you just have to sigh and block the corridor on foot on full-def in your big shiny armor while everyone stands behinds you and shoots over your head while you Swift-action LoH to heal the occasional wound as the bad guys desperately flail against your 25 AC.
Boring, but insanely effective.
You could take combat expertise and imp trip at first level as a human. Pick up a Flail and you have all of your AC can trip up opponents which is especially effective next to your rogue/barbarian/fighter friend who is going to punish those enemies for daring to stand back up.
As you level pick up Combat Reflexes to be able to make better uses of all the trips possible. Possibly pick up some Teamwork Feats to help out the primary damage dealers if you have a consistent party build week to week(Outflank, Precise Strike, etc.). None of this prevents you from doing solid damage as a Paladin any time something evil is bold enough to stand in smiting range.
Eventually you can pursue more advanced tactics (such as Body Guard, Dodge + Mobility + Combat Patrol, Greater Trip + Lunge, Imp. Overrun + Charge Through) and mix in some generic options (Power Attack, +2 to a save, Toughness, Weapon Focus(x), etc).
You can start out with some basic options to combat and slowly add more interesting options depending on what you want to play. I have been crafting a build with a paladin who trips(Combat Expertise + Imp. Trip + Greater Trip), uses his AoPs to provide AC boosts to his allies (Combat Reflexes + BodyGuard), has an effective 10' reach(Lunge and high AC to compensate), and picked up power attack late in levels to up his damage.
1 - Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
3 - Combat Reflexes
5 - Body Guard
7 - Greater Trip
9 - Lunge
11 - Power Attack
I have selected Weapon Bond for him, because the enhancement bonus he can add increases his CMB to trip with his Adamantine Flail and helps overcome DR when he is not smiting. This guy could have easily started out with Combat Reflexes and Body Guard to begin with more of a Defender feel. He will provide solid melee damage as a secondary damage dealer; help control the field with trips and extra range for his AoPs; defend allies with Body Guard; and eventually switch to a more damage focus with power attack. He has a lot of options to use in combat and does more than just stand in front of the others at any level.