I am relatively new to table top RPG. I've been playing for a couple years, but all sessions have been few and too far between. I've finally got a dedicated GM and we play as frequently as possible (2-3 times a month, wish it were more). Up until now my characters have been martial but we recently started a new campaign and I decided to go with something different. I totally loved the idea of an alchemist character class, even before I knew that one already existed in the Advanced Players Guide. When we were starting the campaign the GM said we were allowed to make characters outside of the core rulebook so I went for it. My character, as he stands today, looks like this:
Wimwick, Gnome, Alchemist 3
Str 10, Dex 14, Con 11, Int 17, Wis 14, Cha 9
AC 15 (Leather Armor)
Weapons: Hand crossbow, cane sword (both of which acquired with permission from GM on grounds of added flavor)
Skill Bonus: Craft Alchemy 11, Disable Device 7, Kno(Arcana) 8, Kno(Eng) 7, Perc 8, Spellcraft 9, Survival 8, Use MagDev 4
So far I've taken Smoke Bomb and Precise Bomb, as well as the Pyromaniac racial bonus for gnomes.
My concept was a kooky, babbling scientist poisoning everything on the sly and 'nading everything else that got in his way. Unfortunately I'm just not "feeling it". I find myself running around in battle feeling useless as far as dishing out damage. The most helpful thing I do is distribute Cure Light Wounds and Mage Armors before they run off to get beat down. At these low levels, the cost to make potions and poisons seem a bit high and feels unbalanced while the other magic classes can huff in new spells every level from divine winds.
My GM has helped my character out a bit with special herbs found with Survival checks that help reduce the cost of crafting certain types of potions (ie, healing), and allowed me to start a business in the cities marketplace hawking my wares (though he promptly annihilated it as soon as it started to make profit).
We haven't met for this campaign in over a month because one of the players has been AWOL. Nobody has pressured the GM into continuing because the consensus has been that the characters weren't really meshing. We've even moved on to a new campaign.
The road looks like abandonment, but I'm not ready to toss this fella aside. I spent over a week filling out his sheet, sketching him, thinking up back story, and I even went out and painted my first miniature because I couldn't find anything that seemed worthy to represent my new avatar (and I'm hooked on painting my own minis now as a result).
My options are:
-reinvigorate that campaign, find "myself" in this character and stimulate the other players in the party to press forward
or
-put him on the shelf, bring him back another day with a fresh origin and stats
Ultimately my purpose to fleshing out this story on this forum is to see if anyone else with more experience than I has some insight as to what the best roll of this character is in a party, any "why-did-you-pick-this-or-thats", what would you have done differently, what spells(potions) are a must, what are a waste of time, etc.
One thing I will say is that I'm not interested in the Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde build that I have seen some people make, as I've said I usually play a martial character and I get my fill of crushing things elsewhere.
Thank you for reading my exaggeratedly long solicitation for help and thank you for any advice in advance!!!
The bomb alchemist becomes absurdly powerful in later levels. Actually absurd. Completely off the wall broken.
Level 3? You're alright. Level 13? You are the God of War, and as your divine right, you are allowed to wield your arsenal of grenades across the fields of Valhalla.
I find it humorous that both of the bomb alchemists I've seen were gnomes and had a 0 Con modifier. Bad rolls?
Actually we had 20 point buy in. This is my point, I feel like I'm using chopsticks for the first time, and I don't know if I'm holding them right or not. The food keeps slipping out of my grasp yet I am growing increasingly more hungry!
Also: I specifically went out and bought a brick of d6 because I couldn't wait to throw a fistful of damage...
|
The bomb alchemist becomes absurdly powerful in later levels. Actually absurd. Completely off the wall broken.
Level 3? You're alright. Level 13? You are the God of War, and as your divine right, you are allowed to wield your arsenal of grenades across the fields of Valhalla.
I find it humorous that both of the bomb alchemists I've seen were gnomes and had a 0 Con modifier. Bad rolls?
It becomes something you can nova, but really not that bad when you consider the limitations (range, ranged touch, area damage, etc...)
I was worried about it until I did the math.
My concept was a kooky, babbling scientist poisoning everything on the sly and 'nading everything else that got in his way. Unfortunately I'm just not "feeling it". I find myself running around in battle feeling useless as far as dishing out damage.
It gets better in another level. At 8th level you explode.
Have you gotten point blank and precise shot yet? They really help you hit more often: its almost impossible to miss. if you can get a clear shot.
The most helpful thing I do is distribute Cure Light Wounds and Mage Armors before they run off to get beat down. At these low levels, the cost to make potions and poisons seem a bit high and feels unbalanced while the other magic classes can huff in new spells every level from divine winds.
If you want to buff up the party either get wands (they're far more cost effective than potions) or get the infusion ability.
You can use feats to get extra discoveries. Once you have point blank and precise shot covered, snag an extra discovery or two, and move on to rapid shot at 7th level, so at 8th you can take the fast bombs discovery to whip out three bombs per round.
Poisoning is a waste of money. Don't bother. Anything you can afford to use regularly simply won't work at your level.
|
We have a Alchemist in one of my campaigns. 1 level dip into fighter gives, shield and medium armor. With feats like Throw Anything(+1 to splash damage), Precise Shot, etc...
She can deal wide aoe damage, using her bombs with range touch attacks.
Her AC is at 23-24 at lv 5.
In almost every game, she can hit monsters that the rest of us cannot, deal more consistent damage then our ranger and even tank monsters while throwing bombs at point-blank range, daring the monsters to try to hit her.
Using poisons is a novelty and should be avoided until higher levels.
My party only used a poison once, and it took a whole week to brew it... not recommended.
What you seem to have in mind is some kind of "poisoner" alchemist, which given the game rules is not really workable at low levels. Talk with your dm, may be you could homebrew something that involves say trading your extracts for the ability to mimic poison effects as infusions instead.
What other characters were in your party?
How many combat encounters does your group usually have before a night's rest?
.
I'm a fan of the Explosive Bomb and Frost Bomb discoveries. Explosive Bomb increases damage to one target in addition to greatly expanding the area covered.
If you want to use poisons, I'd suggest combining them with the Explosive Missile discovery and making those little darts from your hand crossbow rock! Sadly the best poisons you can make at low levels are Drow Poison and Blue Whinnis, both of which have fairly easy save DC's, and which cost 25g and 40g per dose, respectively. When a first level spell cast from a wand costs 7.5g, and a second level spell costs 45g, it's hard to justify paying 25-40 for a dose of poison.
|
A fair number of difficulties:
*You selected a race with neither Dex nor int nor Str bonus. As fun seeming as the gnome alchemist is, they may actually be the single worst race for the job.
*You are spread on your points
Even in the most optimized build, alchemists are pretty bad; unoptimized they run into your issue. At this point, you can be a focused crafter, but that doesn't sound fun.
I've talked this out with people before; it's one thing to love an idea, another entirely if the game mechanics prevent the idea from being good. It sounds like you are an unoptimal character in a party that is willing to mix/max and optimize, and that is not terribly fun.
I had great success at low levels with my alchemist, of course, I picked human for my race and had a 25 point buy. I focused on throwing bombs, and had my int maxed out to begin with. At level 1 (with a +6 to damage with 20 int and point blank shot) I could one shot most peons even with my splash damage. With Mutagen, Mage armor and shield, I had a 25 AC when I was prepared.
I also made a gnome monk for my first PF character, and felt like you did, running around combat, doing little, being generally frustrated. Now, I love gnomes in theory, but I have found that certain classes are really not a good fit for them. Really.
Now, things even out at later levels from what I am told, because things become less dependent on statistics, and more dependent on magical items. But when you are starting it can get really annoying.
You can find fun characters to play that are effective. Sometimes they take a while, and sometimes they are good right away.
I'm surprised that you're feeling useless when it comes to damage dealing. Are the other PCs in your party real death machines? Because 2d6+4 damage (plus splash) is nothing to sneeze at for a level 3 PC, IMO. At least, my alchemist didn't feel useless at level 3.
A fair number of difficulties:
*You selected a race with neither Dex nor int nor Str bonus. As fun seeming as the gnome alchemist is, they may actually be the single worst race for the job.
*You are spread on your points
Even in the most optimized build, alchemists are pretty bad; unoptimized they run into your issue. At this point, you can be a focused crafter, but that doesn't sound fun.
I've talked this out with people before; it's one thing to love an idea, another entirely if the game mechanics prevent the idea from being good. It sounds like you are an unoptimal character in a party that is willing to mix/max and optimize, and that is not terribly fun.
Original 20 point-buy Gnome:
STR: 10 DEX: 14 CON: 11 INT: 17 WIS: 14 CHA: 9Same point spread on an Elf:
STR: 12 DEX: 16 CON: 7 INT: 19 WIS: 14 CHA: 7
Max INT Elf:
STR: 10 DEX: 16 CON: 10 INT: 20 WIS: 10 CHA: 7
More well rounded elves:
STR: 10 DEX: 18 CON: 10 INT: 18 WIS: 10 CHA: 8
STR: 10 DEX: 16 CON: 12 INT: 18 WIS: 10 CHA: 10
Higher the higher DEX is comparable to the benefits of being small, but the higher INT is a huge difference. +1 INT gives you an extra point of damage and splash damage on every bomb, an additional bomb per day, higher saves vs. bomb effects, and bonus infusions. Something I've done for players in casual games is to mess with racial bonuses. A Gnome or Halfling with +DEX/INT isn't going to break the game, especially as an Alchemist, so I might just let you do that.
|
|
It's 2d6+3; with 5 point splash. But if he doesn't have point blank / precise, that's -4 to hit, and a further -4 if people have cover. He can use this a limited number of times per day, and with a 14 Dex even in the best of circumstances he's missing a good bit.
Doesn't take all that much to be more useful than that. They can get by (even though they still aren't that good) if they have the high Dex-int elf builds and go bomberman (or high Str self-buffing muti-masters with 1 level fighter). But his build really fails to do any of this.
It's 2d6+3; with 5 point splash.
I was including +1 for Point Blank Shot, which almost always applies when I use my alchemist (YMMV, of course).
|
|
Fair :).
I agree house rules can make things work. It really is often a shame that stat bonuses are so big they make the class choice for you, but they really do it here.
2d6+4 with mediocre to hit 8 times per day just isn't impressing; even if you can optimize splash (which is often a drawback btw, feat pending).
2d6+4 with mediocre to hit 8 times per day just isn't impressing; even if you can optimize splash (which is often a drawback btw, feat pending).
I'll agree that it's not eye-poppingly impressive. But I wouldn't use the word "useless" or forgo it in favour of running around delivering CLW potions, unless one of the other party members was really dishing out the damage!
Considering Gnomes can take bonus bombs as their Preferred Class Bonus, and Pyromaniac increases your level by 1 for bomb damage (fire only) I disagree that your race doesn't suit.
I do think, however, the big issue that you're facing is that you didn't see yourself as a mad bomber, and that's kind of what the alchemist is (barring archetypes) -- and so you're not really maximizing your potential.
Bombs offer a lot of bonuses: They attack touch AC, they splash, and because it's elemental damage, you don't need to worry about pesky things like DR:5. (Elemental Resistance is a different thing, but I'll get back to that).
A few tips:
- Dex-based mutagen. You're already got a 14 Dex (so your bombs are already ranged touch attacks [make sure you're going against touch AC and not normal!] at +5 now (+2 class, +1 size, +2 dex) -- gaining +4 dex gives you another +2 to hit [as well as +2AC which stacks with the natural armour you gain from the mutagen])
- Use your preferred class bonuses for extra bombs. Sure, it's only 1 every 2 levels, but it's worth it at low-level when you're short on 'em.
- Point Blank Shot is excellent if you're within 30' (+1 to hit, +1 damage on the direct hit) and opens up Precise Shot (which is the one you really want -- not taking -4 for firing into Melee is beyond helpful)
- Along the same lines, Weapon Focus: Bomb is usually an excellent thing to take (the +1 to hit applies all the time)
- The discoveries Explosive Bombs and Precise Bombs are almost must-haves -- explosive bombs are still fire-based so the Pyromaniac effect still works, you double the splash range and you do persistent damage (which messes up enemy spellcasters, you need to make concentration rolls to cast when you're on fire)... Best of all: you can still exclude the squares your friends are in because of Precise.
Now, as you advance you'll want to get at least one different element type discovery so that when you're fighting the fire elemental you're not useless -- and Dispelling Bombs are lots of fun to ruin the day of buffed-up opponents -- but that's for later.
OF course, if bombing like crazy doesn't appeal to you because you had a poison/skulking type in mind, then you should review the archetypes for alchemist in UM and UC and ask your GM if you can take one, if there's one that better matches the flavour you're hoping for. Some of them are kind of neat (though I like the stock alchemist).
One final comment: I'm not sure how you're Mage Armour-ing others -- first, mage armour is an armour bonus, so it doesn't stack with the armour they're wearing (though it may replace it, depending) -- and two: your infusions are self-only (unless you take a discovery to "fix" that).... which is the biggest limit to Alchemists. (For instance, a Haste infusion affects *you*, not you and your whole party, sadly)
I think I will toss him back in the crucible. I'm happy with being a dedicated bomberman. The poisoner was inspired from my alchemist class I used to use in Morrowind. His modus operandi was to sneak up, arrow the enemy with a stealth crit, then sit back while the poison finished them off. Obviously the mechanics are different in Pathfinder and don't dish out direct damage over time the way they do in Morrowind.
The party consisted of a halfling fighter who should have been a rogue, a halfling ranger who also should have been a rogue, and an ifrit sorcerer who was controlled by the GM and would only cast a spell when it was convenient. Our fighter ultimately got himself arrested and jailed in town for trying to steal inexpensive, non-magic items from a merchant, an act he attempted in plain sight in the middle of the day. We are still paying off his debt to society. One thing I've learned as a new player is when your GM asks you multiple times "Are you SURE you want to do THAT right now?", you probably shouldn't.