Ok, I will first spell out what I understand, then explain my question. My apologies if this is obtuse or long winded, however I have not been able to find a RAW answer for this.
Known:
1.) A prepared caster gains a certain number of spells as determined by class at level 1.
2.)A prepared caster gains spells at each level to add to his/her spell-book/familiar, usually 2.
3.) A caster may pay an amount as listed on page 219 of the CRB to scribe a spell from another casters spell-book into his/her own.
Question:
1.) What if any is the limit of spells a prepared caster may acquire from any one location?
To clarify, is there a RAW ruling anywhere or is it only GM fiat that limits what spells a prepared caster may buy?
Thanks everyone.
1.) What if any is the limit of spells a prepared caster may acquire from any one location?
To clarify, is there a RAW ruling anywhere or is it only GM fiat that limits what spells a prepared caster may buy?Thanks everyone.
There is no specific rule about how many spells can be acquired from a single source beyond your available resources. If you run out of money, you can't keep copying the spells until you make more.
That said, there are many reasons you may not be able to get everything from the copy-source, most of which relate to role playing. Things along the line of: the wizard has several custom spells and you [are just not cool enough, don't belong to the right guild, etc.] to get access to them.
If it's a captured spell book, you can take everything from it you don't already have limited only by your wealth and resources.
--JD
|
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Ok, I will first spell out what I understand, then explain my question. My apologies if this is obtuse or long winded, however I have not been able to find a RAW answer for this.
Known:
1.) A prepared caster gains a certain number of spells as determined by class at level 1.
2.)A prepared caster gains spells at each level to add to his/her spell-book/familiar, usually 2.
3.) A caster may pay an amount as listed on page 219 of the CRB to scribe a spell from another casters spell-book into his/her own.
Question:
1.) What if any is the limit of spells a prepared caster may acquire from any one location?
To clarify, is there a RAW ruling anywhere or is it only GM fiat that limits what spells a prepared caster may buy?Thanks everyone.
For 3, that is if he can find a wizard with that spell and that wizard is willing to let them do so. Something that is and not a given.
"In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more."
So the question is how do you define rare? If there are in theory only a few high level wizards in existence, would high level spells be considered rare?
I personally would never let a player get a spell from another wizard without role playing it out. This could be something as simple as the wizard needing to join a guild or attend a wizarding school, something like that.
As to from one location, it should be the access to the spells the wizard he is talking to has.
For 3, that is if he can find a wizard with that spell and that wizard is willing to let them do so. Something that is and not a given.
"In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more."
So the question is how do you define rare? If there are in theory only a few high level wizards in existence, would high level spells be considered rare?
I personally would never let a player get a spell from another wizard without role playing it out. This could be something as simple as the wizard needing to join a guild or attend a wizarding school, something like that.
As to from one location, it should be the access to the spells the wizard he is talking to has.
While I completely agree with and understand that role-play and NPC/PC interaction are limiters to this, I was however hoping for a RAW ruling or a table such as the one for magic item availability in each town, or spell casting services.
Thanks though, but does such a thing even exist?
The table includes spell casting services like buying scrolls right? Just buy scrolls of the spells you want (if you can).
As far as I know, there's no "wizards that let people copy things out of their spell books chart" anywhere. Personally, I think letting someone copy something directly from my spell book is a very intimate thing.
If I was a 7th level wizard, I can't imagine ever letting some random punk 3rd level wizard peruse my spell book. Clerics of the same faiths are comrades (normally). Wizards only have rivals and potential enemies. The inherent danger of teaching another your secrets is greater than an assassin taking on an apprentice. It's why wizards have like 5 spells dedicated to making their books unintelligible or make heads explode if they're read without permission.
It would be kind of nice if there was some type of Wizard's Guilds mechanic that gave you some type of RAW way to research and copy spells. Some wizards must work together...
|
|
"In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more."
Wow, thank you. I dont know how i missed that. I've been using the 3.5 price of spell level x10 x caster level x2. It works out to be just a little less than a scroll of the same level
The table includes spell casting services like buying scrolls right? Just buy scrolls of the spells you want (if you can).
Do you know how much scrolls cost right?
As far as I know, there's no "wizards that let people copy things out of their spell books chart" anywhere. Personally, I think letting someone copy something directly from my spell book is a very intimate thing.
And that is something you use in your homebrew setting, because in most settings (including Golarion) there is no such thing, sure it might not be the case in every country of the world but surely isn't the norm.
If I was a 7th level wizard, I can't imagine ever letting some random punk 3rd level wizard peruse my spell book. Clerics of the same faiths are comrades (normally). Wizards only have rivals and potential enemies. The inherent danger of teaching another your secrets is greater than an assassin taking on an apprentice. It's why wizards have like 5 spells dedicated to making their books unintelligible or make heads explode if they're read without permission.
Why wouldn't you?
Spellbooks (as they are non-magical in most cases) are very cheap, including the spells that are in.
It would be kind of nice if there was some type of Wizard's Guilds mechanic that gave you some type of RAW way to research and copy spells. Some wizards must work together...
Although there is no wizard guild mechanic (i would very much like one) there are mechanics in the core book for both researching spells and copying them from another wizard's spellbook.
If I was a 7th level wizard, I can't imagine ever letting some random punk 3rd level wizard peruse my spell book. Clerics of the same faiths are comrades (normally). Wizards only have rivals and potential enemies. The inherent danger of teaching another your secrets is greater than an assassin taking on an apprentice. It's why wizards have like 5 spells dedicated to making their books unintelligible or make heads explode if they're read without permission.
Why wouldn't you?
Spellbooks (as they are non-magical in most cases) are very cheap, including the spells that are in.
Define "cheap". A nice car is cheap compared to a private jet, but that doesn't mean people who own private jets frivously lend their nice cars to just about anyone. To the average joe, a spellbook is worth a fortune. A scroll of burning hands costs the same as 25 goats, mind you.
Also, remember that they're personal as in written in their own specific way. I can see many wizards thinking it's too personal to allow anyone to use it, just like I've got personal poems that I don't let anyone read, though I also have public ones I perform with.
I can see wizards having a spellbook that they hire out for copying, but I can also see wizards having a personal one where they have their more rare and powerful spells.
While there's no RAW on it, I'd treat access to spellbooks to copy from as the value of an equal scroll, but not charge as much.
@stringburka
Cheap compared to the wealth a character should have at the levels after 7th.
Let's take a look at a spellbook of UM (the prices aren't 100% accurate but they are pretty close), the tome of the transmuter (level 8) has a value of 1810gp without the ritual and the spellbook also has a good lock and explosives rune on it*, 1810gp value is cheap of an 8th level character.
*If it didn't had the lock and the explosive runes it would be even cheaper.
The table includes spell casting services like buying scrolls right? Just buy scrolls of the spells you want (if you can).
As far as I know, there's no "wizards that let people copy things out of their spell books chart" anywhere. Personally, I think letting someone copy something directly from my spell book is a very intimate thing.
If I was a 7th level wizard, I can't imagine ever letting some random punk 3rd level wizard peruse my spell book. Clerics of the same faiths are comrades (normally). Wizards only have rivals and potential enemies. The inherent danger of teaching another your secrets is greater than an assassin taking on an apprentice. It's why wizards have like 5 spells dedicated to making their books unintelligible or make heads explode if they're read without permission.
It would be kind of nice if there was some type of Wizard's Guilds mechanic that gave you some type of RAW way to research and copy spells. Some wizards must work together...
I actually agree with most of this. I'm a little less tight on the "letting some 3rd level punk" ... but, I agree that a wizard is going to be very careful about with whom, and for how long he let's his book out of his sight. Yeah, purchased spellbooks are fairly cheap in comparison to wealth by level, but you have to remember that a wizard has spent a lot of blood, sweat, and tears, gathering the spells he/she's put into that book through adventuring. It becomes much more than just a book at that point. It would be like letting someone look at your diary and copy a few pages out of it. You'd be pretty darn careful about who you were loaning it to, and how long you let them have it.
As for wizard's guilds, I've built that fluff into Golarion, out of pure desire. I can't see a wide magic world like Golarion not having some type of consortium of wizards who maintain safe-houses for spell research and training. It's not a very difficult thing to build in, just pick a central city for the headquarters and then have small "outposts" in various cities across the Inner Sea. You have to stat up some NPCs for this, but once you've established it, it becomes an easy permanent part of the world, and makes collecting spells a fun roleplaying tool. In fact, I frequently have wizards in my games called on by the wizard's guild to perform tasks; it's an easy way to start up an adventure.
For 3, that is if he can find a wizard with that spell and that wizard is willing to let them do so. Something that is and not a given.
"In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more."
So the question is how do you define rare? If there are in theory only a few high level wizards in existence, would high level spells be considered rare?
I personally would never let a player get a spell from another wizard without role playing it out. This could be something as simple as the wizard needing to join a guild or attend a wizarding school, something like that.
As to from one location, it should be the access to the spells the wizard he is talking to has.
While I completely agree with and understand that role-play and NPC/PC interaction are limiters to this, I was however hoping for a RAW ruling or a table such as the one for magic item availability in each town, or spell casting services.
Thanks though, but does such a thing even exist?
NPC creation is always in the GM's hands. That being said, maybe the PC is going to need to use Diplomacy. Using Ezren (the iconic wizard), the DC could be 20 (indifferent), 15 (friendly), and 10 (helpful).
You don't necessarily have to let the spell book out of your sight, much less overnight. Or even let the wizard peruse the whole thing.
Bring him into your house (or some other reasonably secure area) open the book to the right page and let him go to work. Keep an eye on him yourself or have your familiar or apprentice do so.
I also suspect that, among wizards of similar levels, the most common price would be a trade. NPC wizards want new spells as much as PC ones do. A 10th level wizard might already have or not care about anything a 3rd level one has, but a 5th level wizard would.
Also you don't even to hand him your own spellbook, other than the fact that copying your own spellbook costs half both in ink and in time you have another option, simply tear up the pages of the spell(s) he wants, let him copy them and then use mending to put them back in.
|
A good example of a wizard gaining access to a huge number of new spells would be defeating a lich in his lair / tower / whatever. There is a very real possibility of said lich having an entire library full of spells and old spellbooks.
In a case like this, it's not even an issue of scribing the spells, as long as the wizard has access to the spellbooks, he can memorize the spells. If you can transport the entire library back home, you've just gained access to an extremely valuable treasure.
My point was there is a rule for copying from another spell book, (which is great if you have another wizard in your party or you find a spellbook somehow) and there is a cursory mention of 'town' wizards maybe charging a fee if you were to ask.
However, there's no real establishment of what is copyable in a random town. If a town has up to 4th level casting... it would seem really unlikely that there are enough wizards and so cosmopolitan that they know every arcane spell up to 4th level.
It's the same reason pathfinder has gotten into rolling a bunch of random magical items available in town to purchase, rather than just saying any magic item up to X value.
So if there are even wizards in the town, how friendly they are, what their policy is, and measures they take to protect themsleves are all up to GM. I was just throwing in my two cents that a decent wizard would at least be cautious, because if it's a new guy asking (low level) I probably don't know who he is and where he stands and if it's an big shot (higher level) he is potentially very dangerous. Anyway, I see at as a big enough deal that it needs a RP reason at the moment.
|
A good example of a wizard gaining access to a huge number of new spells would be defeating a lich in his lair / tower / whatever. There is a very real possibility of said lich having an entire library full of spells and old spellbooks.
In a case like this, it's not even an issue of scribing the spells, as long as the wizard has access to the spellbooks, he can memorize the spells. If you can transport the entire library back home, you've just gained access to an extremely valuable treasure.
We all agree that rules should apply equally to both NPCs and PCs, right? So obviously, the lich's spellbooks are protected by a wall of metagame plot immunity. Therefore, PCs can never ever take his spellbooks away.
A brilliant lich would keep his phylactery in his spellbooks, since they're protected by the most powerful force in the game.
@Sekret_One
Wouldn't be easier to just let the wizard/magus/alchemist get what spell they want and only be careful that he doesn't go crazy* and be done with it? That way you can focus your game on the more important things, unless of course you want to use that as a plot hook and/or quest starter
*for example: no he isn't likely to find several 3rd level and a couple of 4th level spells in a backwater village
@Sekret_One
Wouldn't be easier to just let the wizard/magus/alchemist get what spell they want and only be careful that he doesn't go crazy* and be done with it? That way you can focus your game on the more important things, unless of course you want to use that as a plot hook and/or quest starter
*for example: no he isn't likely to find several 3rd level and a couple of 4th level spells in a backwater village
It would be easier just like letting the fighter/paladin/rogue/barbarian buy any type of special material/enchanted arms.
I'll admit, I've always been detail oriented, and am more likely to play out any NPC interaction above buying rations. That way the players really can't tell who is just mook/shopkeeper NPC and a 'story' NPC. It does mean there are bigger gaps between marching through 'dungeons' so YMMV.
I would make it an interaction to copy out of another wizard's spellbook, but I'd also expect to copy a fair number of spells (unless I really was just trying to get 1 big important one). For piddly stuff, 1's and 2 level spells I'd just get scrolls and copy from them and to not worry about AWM (arcane writes management).
We all agree that rules should apply equally to both NPCs and PCs, right? So obviously, the lich's spellbooks are protected by a wall of metagame plot immunity. Therefore, PCs can never ever take his spellbooks away.
Wizards spellbooks can be destroyed, damaged, altered, erased and stolen... and I thought this was precisely the reason that wizards would be reluctant to have another handle them even when they're willing to cast spells for a price (sort of the difference between driving someone around and letting them borrow the car). I thought that a wizard wouldn't readily let another wizard copy from his spellbook because it made him terribly vulnerable, not because of some meta barrier.
@Sekret_One
Of course let the fighter/paladin/rogue/barbarian buy any type of special material/enchanted arms assuming the city reasonably has them* (or can be ordered if there is enough time), that way the real story can continue whether that's going into the dungeon, talking with the king or whatever.
As you said we have different tastes, i think that having to play out every single buy slows the game without need.
*By that i mean the item being of equal or less value to city's wealth limit, if they want anything costing more than that i will quickly decide if it can be found for buying or not and then if that item can be ordered or not, i don't even feel the need to roll in order to see if there is a specific item available, the only time i might do that is if i am really lost on whether it should be available or not.