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When summoning animals/monsters with Int of 2 or less, is the handle animal skill needed to get them to do non-lethal damage or to stop attacking someone?
How can a master summoner control large number of animal summons in combat? For example, to capture a npc alive?
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Summon Monster says "If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions."
In general "communicating" with a creature involves either speaking a language the creature speaks or making a Handle Animal check.
It's not addressed in the spell or anything, but my group has always ruled that summoned animals are trained for fighting and have the following tricks: attack (x2), down, and stay. For any other tricks you must "push" them.
They should be "physically capable" of dealing non-lethal damage so I suppose you could "push" them to do it.
The groups I've played in always treat summoned critters like animal companions- control it like a regular character without having to use handle animal/ tricks. Summons already slow the game down a lot, there's no need to go through that rigmarole every time you want the animal to do something. Of course, low level summons aren't all that good, so you could just wait a few levels until you get summons you can talk to.
Yes, you need to spend a full-round Pushing them.
Or you could just dismiss them.
Non lethal damage might be a difficult concept to get across to an animal without outright using speak with animals
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The groups I've played in always treat summoned critters like animal companions- control it like a regular character without having to use handle animal/ tricks. Summons already slow the game down a lot, there's no need to go through that rigmarole every time you want the animal to do something. Of course, low level summons aren't all that good, so you could just wait a few levels until you get summons you can talk to.
You know you have to make handle animal checks to get your animal companion to do anything too.
The only difference between summons and animal companions is the check is a bit easier to do.
The groups I've played in always treat summoned critters like animal companions- control it like a regular character without having to use handle animal/ tricks. Summons already slow the game down a lot, there's no need to go through that rigmarole every time you want the animal to do something. Of course, low level summons aren't all that good, so you could just wait a few levels until you get summons you can talk to.You know you have to make handle animal checks to get your animal companion to do anything too.
The only difference between summons and animal companions is the check is a bit easier to do.
Honestly, I've never played in a group that uses those rules. And I've played in my fair share.
I should be GMing a game soon enough though, so I am thinking of at least requiring handle animal for summoned creatures. Just to see how that turns out.
here is a list of the talkers by level, some are just listeners, you get the point.(just the summon monster set)
1:none
2:elementals, lemure
3:lantern archons, dretch,
4:hound archon, elementals, mephits, hellhound
5:Babau,bralani azata, kyton, salamander, xill, bearded devil, elementals
6:invisible stalker, elementals, erinyes, llilend, shadow demon, succubus
7:elementals, fire giant, frost giant
8:barbed devil, elementals, hezrou
9:astral deva, ghaele azata, glabrezu, ice devil, nalfeshnee, trumpet archon
its weird that there is a gradual increase in languaged creatures then it drops at 7th. Also the ninth level list has only creatures that can communicate.
if this is your shtick, i would get a speak with animals device. or a translator if you summon a lot of the same animal. you could prep an animal like a frog for instance with the share language ability, then for the next twenty four hours the frog can act as liaison between you and the frog kingdom translating your commands into croaks.. assuming you have stocked up on plenty of bug type bribes or have established some other amicable arrangement with said amphibian translator.
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The groups I've played in always treat summoned critters like animal companions- control it like a regular character without having to use handle animal/ tricks. Summons already slow the game down a lot, there's no need to go through that rigmarole every time you want the animal to do something. Of course, low level summons aren't all that good, so you could just wait a few levels until you get summons you can talk to.You know you have to make handle animal checks to get your animal companion to do anything too.
The only difference between summons and animal companions is the check is a bit easier to do.
Honestly, I've never played in a group that uses those rules. And I've played in my fair share.
I should be GMing a game soon enough though, so I am thinking of at least requiring handle animal for summoned creatures. Just to see how that turns out.
I would like to point out that most Animal Companions are at Int 2. If you give it a single point via level up into Int, it would be an Int 3 and therefore capable of understanding speech.
This usually allows the Animal Companion to do what the ranger wants it to do without the need for handle animals.
Summoned creatures are stuck at Int 2 so a speak with animal spell would be needed.
I would like to point out that most Animal Companions are at Int 2. If you give it a single point via level up into Int, it would be an Int 3 and therefore capable of understanding speech.
This usually allows the Animal Companion to do what the ranger wants it to do without the need for handle animals.
-I thought so too, then the blog put in the kybosh on that, somewhat.
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lc1y
The groups I've played in always treat summoned critters like animal companions- control it like a regular character without having to use handle animal/ tricks. Summons already slow the game down a lot, there's no need to go through that rigmarole every time you want the animal to do something. Of course, low level summons aren't all that good, so you could just wait a few levels until you get summons you can talk to.You know you have to make handle animal checks to get your animal companion to do anything too.
The only difference between summons and animal companions is the check is a bit easier to do.
Honestly, I've never played in a group that uses those rules. And I've played in my fair share.
I should be GMing a game soon enough though, so I am thinking of at least requiring handle animal for summoned creatures. Just to see how that turns out.
I would like to point out that most Animal Companions are at Int 2. If you give it a single point via level up into Int, it would be an Int 3 and therefore capable of understanding speech.
This usually allows the Animal Companion to do what the ranger wants it to do without the need for handle animals.
Summoned creatures are stuck at Int 2 so a speak with animal spell would be needed.
And I'd like to retort that just because an animal companion has 3 int, it doesn't mean that you don't need to make handle animal checks.
RAW and RAI, of course.
As I said, most groups I've played with ignore those rules.
Hummm.... but if they place 1 skill rank into Linguistics they can understand a language?
Does that allow the ranger/druid to just tell the animal what to do using that language?
that just means the ranger can use diplomacy instead.
: )
Yes, to the limit of the intelligence and desires of the animal. Try to stop a 2 year old child from eating a bar of chocolate by words alone - it is against the nature of a child to stop, same as it is for a creature to stop trying to kill its prey and "just pummel it into unconscious"
This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the druid on her adventures.But its loyal! Surely it would understand!
Just joking! I can see where this is coming from.
For summon Animals, if I can talk to them/make them understand like via a speak with animals spell, I can command them right?
I believe so.
yup
I've never liked the idea of forcing the person who summoned the creature to speak the creature's language. Mainly because it is unlikely that you will speak any language other than common if you play anything other than an INT based caster. Essentially a Summoner is screwed unless he throws points into INT, he has to learn celestial, each elemental language, and a number of other languages, just to have some sort of control over his summoned creatures.
There are a large variety of creatures and each (usually) has its own language. I am more than willing to say that the magic takes care of the language on its own, the magic provides the creature you summon with the language Common, it just makes things less of a headache.
If you summon a dog, not a celestial dog, not a fiendish dog, but just a dog, what language does he speak? Will you need to relay your orders to a druid so that you can control your dog?
Just because it has Int 3 doesn't mean it can suddenly understand languages. It has to LEARN those languages first. Int 3 gives it the capability to learn them, but doesn't grant free languages on its own.
In short, you will need to get either Int 12+, or Int 3 and ranks in linguistics.
I've never liked the idea of forcing the person who summoned the creature to speak the creature's language. Mainly because it is unlikely that you will speak any language other than common if you play anything other than an INT based caster. Essentially a Summoner is screwed unless he throws points into INT, he has to learn celestial, each elemental language, and a number of other languages, just to have some sort of control over his summoned creatures.
There are a large variety of creatures and each (usually) has its own language. I am more than willing to say that the magic takes care of the language on its own, the magic provides the creature you summon with the language Common, it just makes things less of a headache.
If you summon a dog, not a celestial dog, not a fiendish dog, but just a dog, what language does he speak? Will you need to relay your orders to a druid so that you can control your dog?
Headband of Vast Intelligence (Linguistics) would give you a ton of extra languages.
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In our games we do this:
If an animal companion has an Int of 3, and you've spent a rank in Linguistics to allow it to understand a language, you can tell it to do any trick it's learned without needing to roll. It can even understand other members of the party and follow their directions. You still need Handle Animal to train it and to push it to do tricks it hasn't learned yet.
The summoner I'm currently playing has close to max ranks in handle animal and linguistics so he can communicate with anything he summons.
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If you summon a dog, not a celestial dog, not a fiendish dog, but just a dog, what language does he speak? Will you need to relay your orders to a druid so that you can control your dog?
A normal dog has no languages. You'd either have to cast Speak With Animals or have a dog familiar that can speak with other dogs. If you don't have either of those, your communication is limited to Handle Animal checks.
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In our games we do this:
If an animal companion has an Int of 3, and you've spent a rank in Linguistics to allow it to understand a language, you can tell it to do any trick it's learned without needing to roll. It can even understand other members of the party and follow their directions. You still need Handle Animal to train it and to push it to do tricks it hasn't learned yet.
The summoner I'm currently playing has close to max ranks in handle animal and linguistics so he can communicate with anything he summons.
That is an understandable house rule but completely against RAW and RAI and actually doesn't make much sense either. All you've done here is make sure this free-willed creature can understand you but you haven't done anything to make it WANT to obey you.
Remember a handle animal check is a mechanic for you to impose your will onto another being and make it obey your commands. Now with the example above from Dave Thomassen (great example by the way) just because it knows what you want doesn't mean it will obey.
Summoned critters on the other hand are magically compelled to obey you but are limited to what they can understand.
If you want perfect understanding and total obedience then go make a construct otherwise max out that handle animal skill or watch your pet ignore you.
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or play a summoner. total control of your quadrupedal companion. and beefier too. no need to worry about its languages.
for summon monster spells, knowing one or two languages is usually enough. a summoner who has more than three or four "usual suspects" that he summons, is probably going to slow the table. if he's got one of each level, or usually summons fiendish, or celestial templated creatures, 1 point for a language isn't much investment.
for summon nature's ally, if you summon a base animal, then yeah, the easiest route is speak with animals, like what gnomes get 1/day. but its an extra action and usually not worth it. if you've got to do subdual damage, what're you doing summoning a cave bear ? ::waggles eyebrows::
Since they're not your animal companion, there's no rules on tricks it knows. gm has to house rule what commands, if any, they would understand. otherwise its a handle animal check and a full round action to cajole it to do what you want ( and a tough check, 25? so not for the weak of personality ).
( though i wonder if Merciful Spell would work... lol j/k )
ive usually had the bases covered with linguistics, but admittedly i also put points into int no matter what I'm playing.
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That is an understandable house rule but completely against RAW and RAI and actually doesn't make much sense either. All you've done here is make sure this free-willed creature can understand you but you haven't done anything to make it WANT to obey you.
All of that was based of the creature being an animal companion, which is not a free-willed creature. You spent 24 hours in a ritual to bind it to your will. The only thing you need Animal Handling checks for is training it to do tricks, and overcoming the language barrier before it learns common.
Technically anyone can make a handle animal check to get a non-hostile animal to do something. It's just that a druid or ranger can handle their animal faster. I don't see any problem with an animal that understands common performing tasks for good friends of their master.
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there's never a problem getting a summoned creature to attack. its getting it to do something else, like set off a trap for you, or deal subdual damage, that actually requires you to be able to communicate with it.
Getting it to flank, depending on its intelligence, might even require you to be able to communicate with it.
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That is an understandable house rule but completely against RAW and RAI and actually doesn't make much sense either. All you've done here is make sure this free-willed creature can understand you but you haven't done anything to make it WANT to obey you.All of that was based of the creature being an animal companion, which is not a free-willed creature. You spent 24 hours in a ritual to bind it to your will. The only thing you need Animal Handling checks for is training it to do tricks, and overcoming the language barrier before it learns common.
Technically anyone can make a handle animal check to get a non-hostile animal to do something. It's just that a druid or ranger can handle their animal faster. I don't see any problem with an animal that understands common performing tasks for good friends of their master.
There is nothing in the description of the nature bond ability that states that.
All it states is you gain a loyal companion that accompanies you on your adventures.Add to that it specifically gives you modified rules on using handle animal on your animal companion under the Link ability.
If they give specific rules for using handle animal on your companion to class that can naturally speak the same language as the companion it does kind of imply you need to use that skill.
You ALWAYS need to use handle animal to manipulate ANYTHING of type animal. The RAW states it, the RAI means it and the latest blog post reinforces it.
If you want to houserule it away for your game go for it but for the rest of us we can't assume anyone else plays that way and have to follow the rules.