I'm looking for advice concerning summoned monsters. Playing as a Master Summoner, I'd like to stretch my summon monster use as far as possible. So far I've only played a single session with the character, but so far so good. Thus far I've used summoned monsters for:
~ Scouts. I summoned 4 small air elementals and sent them flying in multiple directions. Combined with a message spell, I was able to cover a fairly vast field during the 7 minutes the elementals where around.
~ Guards. While traveling over land in dense wooded area, I summoned a few small earth elementals and had them use their tremorsense to detect ambushes. That came in handy, since we managed to get the drop on a few would be highwaymen.
~ Ride. I also used a medium air elemental to carry my halfling. It turns out that I won't need to learn the fly spell, since having an air elemental carry me is actually better than the spell.
So I'm interested in coming up with some other good uses for summoned monsters, as well as which monster would be the most useful for a given situation.
- Mud and water elementals are useful for initiating ambushes (lying in wait)
- Magma elementals for escape attempts
I would also check out the PFSRD entry on mephits.
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I used summon monsters almost exclusivly with my cleric in a home game when I was not healing.One of the bese uses of a summon monster is to provide flank for an ally, perfably the rogue.
You mentioned elementals, remember they get a bonus for being on thier element, so when can match elements for them.
You might consider one dip into cavalier if it matches your theme. Being able to give all of your summoned monsters a teamwork feat, such as precise strike, is pretty amazing.
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I came up with this list a few years ago, I think it still applies:
1. A Summoner can substitute for a party fighter-type: you have huge expendible blobs of HP blocking you and your precious caster allies from the baddies.
2. Summoners can control the Battefield - Whether you want to Grapple, Bull Rush, Sunder, or Trip - there is a summoned monster that can do it. You can get this with a summoned monster
3. A Summoner can substitute for the party scout: At mid to high levels - those low level Summon Monsters have to be good for something. You can summon creatures with excellent Hide/Move silently/Spot/Listen and search checks. Have them check stuff out for you - then report back. Oh yeah - can your party scout glide through walls? You should have gotten the summoner to send an earth elemental through - have him come back and report.
4. A Summoner has spell versitility: Really you do. Check out the lists below for some of the Spell Like Abilities available to summoned monsters. Summon the one you need - and have it cast the spell for you. For example - if you summon a Bone devil, it can create a wall of ice up every round of its duration
And the SLA's available are nearly endless - and since you don't have to pick which creature (S) you are summoning until you cast the spell - that's spell versitility.
5. A Summoner can check for traps: While the term "trapmonkey" is normally a metaphorical term - to you it's literal. Oh those poor fiendish monkeys.
6. A Summoner saves the Cleric healing spells: There is no way to get an opponents attention off you than to grapple him with a summoned creature. The enemy attacks the creature - and at the end of the combat - if the creature is still alive - you dismiss it.
7. A Summoner can do great damage to opponents: Many creatures do excellent damage to opponents (more with augment summoning). In one round the damage may be humble, but add it round after round and it becomes quite impressive.
8. Summoners are good against all opponents: If the opponent is a flyer - summon a flying creature, if the opponent is Aquatic, summon a swimming one, if the opponent is burrowing, summon a burrowing one, If the opponent is a spellcaster, summon high SR creatures, etc etc etc. The Summon Monster list is big at all levels. Lots to choose from for any occasion.
9. Summoners can buff: Even the low level summoned monsters can be put by an ally and "aid another", or put flanking an enemy to give flanking or sneak attack bonuses. With low level summons, this costs you little.
Oh and take Haste, you get it a level before anyone else and it's awesome and your party will love you. Glitterdust for stuff you can't see.
I have both haste and Glitterdust. thus far I haven't had cause to use either, but then it has only been one session. I'm certain I'll get great use out of them.
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I came up with this list a few years ago...
Seriously, can't we just get a sticky to your guides at the top of the advice forum? Something like: "I have a question about how to use Arcane magic. What do I do?" and inside it just has READ TREANTMONK!.
I swear, eight hundred years from now someone's going to publish "On Wizards" by the ancient scholar Treantmonk (with commentary by Alienfreak and Ravingdork).
You might consider one dip into cavalier if it matches your theme. Being able to give all of your summoned monsters a teamwork feat, such as precise strike, is pretty amazing.
That's fiendishly clever, actually. I never thought of that!
One hidden limitation on summoning though, is that you have to be able to communicate with your summons in an effective fashion. Without that ability, they're pretty much limited to attacking the nearest enemies. And most of the creatures on the summon monster list (on the lower levels, anyway) are dumb planar monsters who don't speak common or animals. Remember that in Pathfinder the celestial/fiendish/other planar templates don't add an Intelligence of 3 to animals or make them magical beasts.
So you can invest in ranks of handle animal or get a wand of speak with animals and UMD the hell out of it. Wizards I think also have an arcane discovery that lets you speak with animals at will (from Ultimate Magic). As for the planar languages (Abyssal, Infernal, Celestial, the various elemental tongues), they can be taken care of with the Tongues spell or several ranks in linguistics.
Another thing to invest into is knowledge skills (most specifically knowledge: planes). YOur DM may call for knowledge rolls if you want to summon a monster for spell specifics (like doing a wall of ice every round)
One hidden limitation on summoning though, is that you have to be able to communicate with your summons in an effective fashion. Without that ability, they're pretty much limited to attacking the nearest enemies. And most of the creatures on the summon monster list (on the lower levels, anyway) are dumb planar monsters who don't speak common or animals.
According to the Bestiary, if a creature has an Int of at least 3, it understands one language, and if the description doesn't specify, that language is common.
The Fiendish and Celestial templates increase an animals Int to 3, but don't specify which language they know, so they all understand common.
It's one of the chief advantages of Summon monster over Summon natures ally.
That said, learning The 4 elemental languages, fiendish, abyssal and celestial are a good investment.
This thread was useful too.
Nice list. I've used this one:
Soak Up Attacks of Opportunity: Large creatures, especially with reach or combat reflexes, can wreak havoc. Use these creatures to soak up the attacks.
On a related note, if you are having one of your summoned creatures attempt to perform a combat maneuver, but they don't have the appropriate feat, it can be effective to have them provoke the attack of opportunity as they move in (by moving through threatened squares), then after the opponent takes its attack of opportunity, then initiate the combat maneuver.
I was in a campaign once with a Conjurer/Malconvoker (the 3.5 version of a dedicated summoner), we were 5th level and getting our butts kicked by a creature that was flying and attacking us at range. I summoned 2 fiendish dire bats.
The DM was smiling because this creature would be able to kill both dire bats, so I moved them in flanking, which provoked an attack of opportunity. Then after the attack, I initiated grapple with both. All 3 came tumbling to the ground for easy cleanup by the party. The tactic took the DM totally by surprise.
In another situation, we were in a combat by a ledge. I had the summoned creature grapple the enemy, then on the next action, the used their grapple option to move the location of the grapple by 5', right over the ledge! Again, the DM was taken off guard. We had a good laugh about that one :)
The Fiendish and Celestial templates increase an animals Int to 3, but don't specify which language they know, so they all understand common.
I'm having trouble finding this, where is it located?
I'm having trouble finding this, where is it located?
The Fiendish and Celestial templates increase an animals Int to 3, but don't specify which language they know, so they all understand common.
You can't find it because it doesn't exist.
Those planar templates don't increase intelligence. They don't understand languages at all unless the original creature did, or you are using some magic.
Treantmonk is thinking of the 3.5 version of the templates, which did in fact do that.
I'm having trouble finding this, where is it located?
The Fiendish and Celestial templates increase an animals Int to 3, but don't specify which language they know, so they all understand common.You can't find it because it doesn't exist.
Those planar templates don't increase intelligence. They don't understand languages at all unless the original creature did, or you are using some magic.
Treantmonk is thinking of the 3.5 version of the templates, which did in fact do that.
I am, good call.
Yep, in 3.5 fiendish and celestial templates increased Int to 3. I forgot they changed that in Pathfinder.
I'm having trouble finding this, where is it located?
The Fiendish and Celestial templates increase an animals Int to 3, but don't specify which language they know, so they all understand common.You can't find it because it doesn't exist.
Those planar templates don't increase intelligence. They don't understand languages at all unless the original creature did, or you are using some magic.
Treantmonk is thinking of the 3.5 version of the templates, which did in fact do that.
I am, good call.
Yep, in 3.5 fiendish and celestial templates increased Int to 3. I forgot they changed that in Pathfinder.
A wizard can do it though, with Feral Tongue. I believe changing which creatures you can communicate with is a Not An Action, so it can be done whenever.
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Lantern archons are one of my favorite low level summons (they're on summon monster III's list). They're pretty crunchy, extremely mobile, and they can hurt an awful lot of very high level monsters because they do a ranged touch attack that pierces all DR. This is the go to summon to fry golems and similar highly magic resistant monsters via attrition.
This. If you summon 1d4+2 Lantern archons, each firing 2d6 in rays of omni-piercing damage, you wind up with a steady stream of ~8d6 damage on round 1, 16d6 on round 2, 24d6 on round three, etc.
The lame nerf of the celestial/fiendish template was called to my attention early on, so I wasn't caught by surprise. Most of my non-combat uses have been done by elementals for that very reason; celestial/fiendish animals will be reserved for when I want something stomped into the ground.
My favorite level 2 summoned creature is the Earth Elemental (Small) at level 2.
Note they have Improved Bull Rush and Power Attack. Summon them 10-feet away from your target and they charge on their turn.
I've used them to Bull Rush enemies off a cliff.
Of course make sure you can speak Terran so you can communicate with them.
One hidden limitation on summoning though, is that you have to be able to communicate with your summons in an effective fashion. Without that ability, they're pretty much limited to attacking the nearest enemies. And most of the creatures on the summon monster list (on the lower levels, anyway) are dumb planar monsters who don't speak common or animals. Remember that in Pathfinder the celestial/fiendish/other planar templates don't add an Intelligence of 3 to animals or make them magical beasts.
So you can invest in ranks of handle animal or get a wand of speak with animals and UMD the hell out of it. Wizards I think also have an arcane discovery that lets you speak with animals at will (from Ultimate Magic). As for the planar languages (Abyssal, Infernal, Celestial, the various elemental tongues), they can be taken care of with the Tongues spell or several ranks in linguistics.
Another thing to invest into is knowledge skills (most specifically knowledge: planes). YOur DM may call for knowledge rolls if you want to summon a monster for spell specifics (like doing a wall of ice every round)
I started the game with all the elemental languages, as well as celestial, infernal and abyssal, so communication isn't a problem.
Putting ranks in handle animal is a good call. I didn't even consider that as a method of dealing with animal summons.
No offense to TM, but I hope that never happens with his guides or anyone else's including mine if I ever write any. It's one thing to look for advice after you've played the game a bit and succeeded and failed on your own, but I can't think of anyway to short circuit, to limit someone's development then by shoving in front of them THE BIBLE OF OPTIMISED WAYS TO PLAY YOUR CLASS.
Making mistakes is part of growth... it's the most important part of learning.... and it's a major part on how new discoveries are made. I've benefited from my mistakes, and I've made my own answers. Knowing how they turned out gives me the freedom to ignore TM's bible when other concerns become more important.
No offense taken.
I think guides are an excellent addition to the "advice" forum, because that is exactly what they offer. I would love to see a guide sticky at the top of the advice forum, but only the advice forum.
The example question posted by uriel222 was perhaps vague because it could have meant more than one thing. "I have a question about how to use Arcane Magic. What do I do?", could be a rules question, maybe the poster doesn't know how arcane magic works in the system and need help with that. They shouldn't be directed to an optimization guide. However, that question shouldn't be posted in "advice" anyways.
If "I have a question about how to use Arcane Magic. What do I do?" is a question about how to use arcane magic well then an optimization guide is exactly what they should be directed to. That question is appropriate for the advice forum, and is appropriate for directing to an optimization guide, because that is exactly what they are asking for.
The "advice" forum is a good place for this kind of material.
Making mistakes is part of growth... it's the most important part of learning....
New players aren't learning to use the potty or not touch the stove. These aren't life lessons, this is a game.
An appropriate analogy would be that we also shouldn't allow a new chess player to read a book on chess strategy, or someone learning the game of bridge to read advice on playing bridge well.
Why would that be a bad thing?
This thread was useful too.Nice list. I've used this one:
Soak Up Attacks of Opportunity: Large creatures, especially with reach or combat reflexes, can wreak havoc. Use these creatures to soak up the attacks.On a related note, if you are having one of your summoned creatures attempt to perform a combat maneuver, but they don't have the appropriate feat, it can be effective to have them provoke the attack of opportunity as they move in (by moving through threatened squares), then after the opponent takes its attack of opportunity, then initiate the combat maneuver.
I was in a campaign once with a Conjurer/Malconvoker (the 3.5 version of a dedicated summoner), we were 5th level and getting our butts kicked by a creature that was flying and attacking us at range. I summoned 2 fiendish dire bats.
The DM was smiling because this creature would be able to kill both dire bats, so I moved them in flanking, which provoked an attack of opportunity. Then after the attack, I initiated grapple with both. All 3 came tumbling to the ground for easy cleanup by the party. The tactic took the DM totally by surprise.
In another situation, we were in a combat by a ledge. I had the summoned creature grapple the enemy, then on the next action, the used their grapple option to move the location of the grapple by 5', right over the ledge! Again, the DM was taken off guard. We had a good laugh about that one :)
Would a summoned monster really throw its life away (literally) by throwing itself with a grappled enemy over a cliff? I mean, the critter will attack to the best of its ability, certainly, but will it commit suicide for you? I'm not sure if "perform other actions" means throw its life away; and at least in a fight, it might have a chance to survive.
Dot
Would a summoned monster really throw its life away (literally) by throwing itself with a grappled enemy over a cliff? I mean, the critter will attack to the best of its ability, certainly, but will it commit suicide for you? I'm not sure if "perform other actions" means throw its life away; and at least in a fight, it might have a chance to survive.
Anything smart enough to have a language that you can communicate with would, because the creature understands that its been summoned and is "immune" to death (when they hit negative hp they just pop back to their home plane.)
Would a summoned monster really throw its life away (literally) by throwing itself with a grappled enemy over a cliff? I mean, the critter will attack to the best of its ability, certainly, but will it commit suicide for you? I'm not sure if "perform other actions" means throw its life away; and at least in a fight, it might have a chance to survive.
As it happens, in the example, I released the summoned creature during the fall. This was more for dramatic effect though, so the enemy would find their grapple opponent disappear as they fell. The GM, for laughs, described the summoned creature as, in mid-fall, letting go of the enemy, smiling and giving a little wave as it disappeared. Good times.
Though specifically, I would point out that a summoned creature cannot "die" with a summoning spell. If they "die", instead they are transported back to where they came from where they reform. With summoning spells, the best way to think of it is that the creature isn't actually "here" at all, but remain tied to their home just like a PC would be that is travelling with an Astral spell.
Summoned creatures face certain death all the time. If I summon a celestial squirrel to attack a Pit Fiend, that's a dead squirrel, but as far as I read the spells, there is no morale check, the squirrel knows its duty and performs it. After it "dies" it reforms unharmed back in the celestial plane.
Calling spells are different than summoning spells. In the case of a called spell, the creature is actually "here". Called creatures can actually die, and a good GM will take that into account when you ask them to do things for you that are dangerous.
Certainly a GM can interpret this however they like, but the rules do specifically differentiate summoning and calling for a reason. There is nothing in the rules that specifically says that a creature knows if it is summoned or called, though note that calling spells tend to include in the spell description, that the creature called will act in its own best interest, while summoning spells have no such instruction.
Would a summoned monster really throw its life away (literally) by throwing itself with a grappled enemy over a cliff? I mean, the critter will attack to the best of its ability, certainly, but will it commit suicide for you? I'm not sure if "perform other actions" means throw its life away; and at least in a fight, it might have a chance to survive.As it happens, in the example, I released the summoned creature during the fall. This was more for dramatic effect though, so the enemy would find their grapple opponent disappear as they fell. The GM, for laughs, described the summoned creature as, in mid-fall, letting go of the enemy, smiling and giving a little wave as it disappeared. Good times.
Though specifically, I would point out that a summoned creature cannot "die" with a summoning spell. If they "die", instead they are transported back to where they came from where they reform. With summoning spells, the best way to think of it is that the creature isn't actually "here" at all, but remain tied to their home just like a PC would be that is travelling with an Astral spell.
Summoned creatures face certain death all the time. If I summon a celestial squirrel to attack a Pit Fiend, that's a dead squirrel, but as far as I read the spells, there is no morale check, the squirrel knows its duty and performs it. After it "dies" it reforms unharmed back in the celestial plane.
Calling spells are different than summoning spells. In the case of a called spell, the creature is actually "here". Called creatures can actually die, and a good GM will take that into account when you ask them to do things for you that are dangerous.
Certainly a GM can interpret this however they like, but the rules do specifically differentiate summoning and calling for a reason. There is nothing in the rules that specifically says that a creature knows if it is summoned or called, though note that calling spells tend to include in the spell description, that the creature called will...
Interesting - I just read the rules for summoned creatures, they can indeed die, but reform (on their native plane) 24 hours later. So in that example, wouldn't the summoned monster have slammed into the ground with the enemy, only to disappear moments later? Unless the spells duration expired during the fall. For flavour purposes, though, having the critter disappear during the fall (which I'm guessing would have been fatal indeed) sounds a lot more fun.
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Would a summoned monster really throw its life away (literally) by throwing itself with a grappled enemy over a cliff? I mean, the critter will attack to the best of its ability, certainly, but will it commit suicide for you? I'm not sure if "perform other actions" means throw its life away; and at least in a fight, it might have a chance to survive.As it happens, in the example, I released the summoned creature during the fall. This was more for dramatic effect though, so the enemy would find their grapple opponent disappear as they fell. The GM, for laughs, described the summoned creature as, in mid-fall, letting go of the enemy, smiling and giving a little wave as it disappeared. Good times.
Though specifically, I would point out that a summoned creature cannot "die" with a summoning spell. If they "die", instead they are transported back to where they came from where they reform. With summoning spells, the best way to think of it is that the creature isn't actually "here" at all, but remain tied to their home just like a PC would be that is travelling with an Astral spell.
Summoned creatures face certain death all the time. If I summon a celestial squirrel to attack a Pit Fiend, that's a dead squirrel, but as far as I read the spells, there is no morale check, the squirrel knows its duty and performs it. After it "dies" it reforms unharmed back in the celestial plane.
Calling spells are different than summoning spells. In the case of a called spell, the creature is actually "here". Called creatures can actually die, and a good GM will take that into account when you ask them to do things for you that are dangerous.
Certainly a GM can interpret this however they like, but the rules do specifically differentiate summoning and calling for a reason. There is nothing in the rules that specifically says that a creature knows if it is summoned or called, though note that calling spells tend to include in the spell description, that the
He actively dismissed the creature.
Would a summoned creature have a choice? They don't agree with you most of the time, they obey you. That's different.
Plus, they don't really die, they just go back to wherever you summoned them from.
One time, just for fun, I had one of my players, a Paladin, summoned by an Angel in a fight in the Abyss against a bunch of demons.
In my world Power Outsiders could summon, like the spell, Material Planar creatures...like PCs.
Lantern archons are one of my favorite low level summons (they're on summon monster III's list). They're pretty crunchy, extremely mobile, and they can hurt an awful lot of very high level monsters because they do a ranged touch attack that pierces all DR. This is the go to summon to fry golems and similar highly magic resistant monsters via attrition.
This is exactly how we dealt with an Iron Golem in a game made for a con. We were attacked by a golem and the Bard and the Summoner used a higher level Summon Monster spell to dump 1d4+1 Lantern Archons on the field. Laser beams everywhere.
Also, Summon Monster is only useful if you DM isn't a jerk or prone to jerkery. If they are use, the more utilitous you make the monsters, the more likely the DM is to shaft you.
Would a summoned monster really throw its life away (literally) by throwing itself with a grappled enemy over a cliff? I mean, the critter will attack to the best of its ability, certainly, but will it commit suicide for you? I'm not sure if "perform other actions" means throw its life away; and at least in a fight, it might have a chance to survive.
Considering a summoner creature isn't really there, isn't really harmed, and doesn't really die, I don't see what it wouldn't if it was smart enough to understand the command.
Considering a summoner creature isn't really there, isn't really harmed, and doesn't really die, I don't see what it wouldn't if it was smart enough to understand the command.Would a summoned monster really throw its life away (literally) by throwing itself with a grappled enemy over a cliff? I mean, the critter will attack to the best of its ability, certainly, but will it commit suicide for you? I'm not sure if "perform other actions" means throw its life away; and at least in a fight, it might have a chance to survive.
Sorry, but how is the summoned creature really not there? From what I can tell from the rules, you're grabbing an actual creature from another plane, and it will attack the closest enemy to where you summon it to. If, and only if, it's intelligent, you can direct it to not attack, or attack another target, or perform "other tasks". The creature can indeed die; but if it does, it's reformed 24 hours later, ready for resummoning.
Are we supposed to assume there is some sort of extradimensional critter camp, filled with summoning eligible creatures, who have been summoned before or were created specifically for summoning, who know that they won't have to worry about dying if they get summoned, and thus are willing to act as kamakaze attackers? Or are creatures randomly grabbed from their plane based on some other criteria we aren't aware of? Would such a creature know that it need not worry about death from it's masters orders while summoned?
Harmor: that is indeed an awesome idea - I may also have to steal that as a story thread, I can only imagine the look on my players' faces!
Harmor: that is indeed an awesome idea - I may also have to steal that as a story thread, I can only imagine the look on my players' faces!
Thanks...I used it as an adhoc way to save the player. I accidentially put too powerful creatures for an encounter and this was a way for me to get him out. It later turned into a whole story arc where these Angles were attempting to retreive an artifact that was stolen and hidden somewhere in the Abyss. The "Angle Party" would summon the PCs, as per the spell, to fight.
Like summoning a normal creature when you are summoned as a PC you are at full hit points and all conditions (harmful and helpful), are removed.
The Paladin, I think he was like 12 at the time, was summoned into a fight with a Balor.
The PCs enjoyed it...but that was like 7-8 years ago.
Considering a summoner creature isn't really there, isn't really harmed, and doesn't really die, I don't see what it wouldn't if it was smart enough to understand the command.Would a summoned monster really throw its life away (literally) by throwing itself with a grappled enemy over a cliff? I mean, the critter will attack to the best of its ability, certainly, but will it commit suicide for you? I'm not sure if "perform other actions" means throw its life away; and at least in a fight, it might have a chance to survive.
Sorry, but how is the summoned creature really not there? From what I can tell from the rules, you're grabbing an actual creature from another plane, and it will attack the closest enemy to where you summon it to. If, and only if, it's intelligent, you can direct it to not attack, or attack another target, or perform "other tasks". The creature can indeed die; but if it does, it's reformed 24 hours later, ready for resummoning.
Are we supposed to assume there is some sort of extradimensional critter camp, filled with summoning eligible creatures, who have been summoned before or were created specifically for summoning, who know that they won't have to worry about dying if they get summoned, and thus are willing to act as kamakaze attackers? Or are creatures randomly grabbed from their plane based on some other criteria we aren't aware of? Would such a creature know that it need not worry about death from it's masters orders while summoned?
Harmor: that is indeed an awesome idea - I may also have to steal that as a story thread, I can only imagine the look on my players' faces!
They aren't there because they are not really in our plane of existence. An Anti-Magic Field causes a summoned creature to blink out for the duration of the field, but it comes back if the field is dispersed. A summoned creature can also be dispelled. It's just an on-going spell effect in the shape of a creature. A creature isn't actually there like with a calling spell. They do not die because they aren't there.
Of course they are kamikaze attackers. They aren't summonable anywhere near their CR thus summoning for the very purpose the spell is for turns them into kamikaze forces, never mind using them for anything else.
Player: "I use Summon Monster."
DM: "The spell fails, the monsters refuse to be summoned because so many of your summoned creatures die"
That's a bad DM.
Being a summoned monster is almost identical to experiencing a very violent lucid dream. At the end of it you're back, none the worse for wear, in whatever plane you hail from. Some of the more martially oriented summons might even enjoy the chance to learn something more of strategy and tactics.
That's a great way of conceptualizing the lot of the summoned creature, EWHM, I like it a lot!
Cartigan: You're right, that would be a bad DM, indeed. I'm going to TRY and worry a little less about the fate of the summoned critters. I don't think it's the sort of thing one is supposed to put too much thought into, anyways, especially when you just want that freakin' celestial wolverine to flank that bone devil who is gnawing at your back fat.....
This thread was useful too.
Very nice. Both threads are proving a wealth of ideas.
This reminds me of the hero Summon spell used in the old playstation game Brave Fencer Musashi. The plot involves a princess using a hero summon spell to conjure a warrior from another world to save the kingdom. Fun game.