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The original poster wasn't really that offensive considering some of the replies he got. So lets move past that to the topic shall we?
The Ninjas level 20 ability is i think right on the verge of overpowered and not overpowered to me.
The fact that he can do some crazy stuff while invisible is fine considering its a level 20 ability but i THINK the original posters problem with it (at the very least this is my beef with it) is that there is NO way to counter it. Almost every ability in pathfinder can be countered in some way.
This ability states that no matter what it can't be gotten around. That means flour, spells of any kind including wish and miracle, sand, dirt,water and everything else just don't work against it!
To me anything without a counter is silly
The original poster wasn't really that offensive considering some of the replies he got. So lets move past that to the topic shall we?
The Ninjas level 20 ability is i think right on the verge of overpowered and not overpowered to me.
The fact that he can do some crazy stuff while invisible is fine considering its a level 20 ability but i THINK the original posters problem with it (at the very least this is my beef with it) is that there is NO way to counter it. Almost every ability in pathfinder can be countered in some way.
This ability states that no matter what it can't be gotten around. That means flour, spells of any kind including wish and miracle, sand, dirt,water and everything else just don't work against it!
To me anything without a counter is silly
I have to disagree with what you say "putting flour on the ground or splashing paint every where does not counter invisible it they are still invisible they are just covered in paint, i think what the devs were referring to was going up the chain of options, true seeing wish ect,
not really water or flour or paint, glitterdust yes wouldn't work. but if a ninja walked under a waterfall the water would still outline him.But i have never played a high level campaign before so the ninja being able to kill you form no where seems reasonable to me.
To me anything without a counter is silly
Can't reveal does not equal no counter.
It certainly stops being a useful ability when the ninja dies, for example, even if you have to wait two minutes to see the corpse.
The original poster wasn't really that offensive considering some of the replies he got. So lets move past that to the topic shall we?
The Ninjas level 20 ability is i think right on the verge of overpowered and not overpowered to me.
The fact that he can do some crazy stuff while invisible is fine considering its a level 20 ability but i THINK the original posters problem with it (at the very least this is my beef with it) is that there is NO way to counter it. Almost every ability in pathfinder can be countered in some way.
This ability states that no matter what it can't be gotten around. That means flour, spells of any kind including wish and miracle, sand, dirt,water and everything else just don't work against it!
To me anything without a counter is silly
This.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Heh. Blur.
"A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment."
Congratulations, your awesome ability penalty has just been shut down... by a second level spell.
For more fun... Faerie Fire
"Outlined creatures do not benefit from the concealment normally provided by darkness (though a 2nd-level or higher magical darkness effect functions normally), blur, displacement, invisibility, or similar effects."
Might want to widen it, but saving throw, none.
"I am the mighty Ninja! Master of invisibil- why do I have this glowing outline around me? Aieeeeeeeee! I am slain!"
To me anything without a counter is sillyCan't reveal does not equal no counter.
It certainly stops being a useful ability when the ninja dies, for example, even if you have to wait two minutes to see the corpse.
*ahem*
This.
Also, this was the only actual question in your original post: "Am I the only one looking at 10 points of ability damage AND unbeatable invisibility and shaking his head?"
And it would seem that the answer is no, but you're in the minority.
As an aside, I think too much emphasis is placed on combat abilities.
"I am the mighty Ninja! Master of invisibil- why do I have this glowing outline around me? Aieeeeeeeee! I am slain!"
Jarate.
That is all.
@Kuma: Weeeellllll it's a fairly combat heavy game. And by fairly I mean it's a big deal. That's why I tend to embrace the AP's that emphasize non-combat alot. I'm looking forward to running the Sixfold Trial for my players soon as an example.
Heh. Blur.
"A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment."
Congratulations, your awesome ability penalty has just been shut down... by a second level spell.
For more fun... Faerie Fire
"Outlined creatures do not benefit from the concealment normally provided by darkness (though a 2nd-level or higher magical darkness effect functions normally), blur, displacement, invisibility, or similar effects."
Might want to widen it, but saving throw, none.
"I am the mighty Ninja! Master of invisibil- why do I have this glowing outline around me? Aieeeeeeeee! I am slain!"
dont you have to see him first to cast that?
I think the wording states magical means dont work. just my reading of it.
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Actually it's a super natural ability, so it can't be dispelled. Well unless you plop down antimagic...
..but SU's don't have caster levels and are not cast so either.
A. This SU allows you to cast a spell, meaning the spell can be dispelled,or
B.the SU is a typo, and should have been spell like ability.
I guess this means it is time to hit the FAQ button.
Meh it's alright for an ability that's stymied by uncanny dodge, or immunity to sneak attack, or ability damage, or death attacks, or surprise... or several other things.
Considering all those immunities come in much sooner than this capstone does I'm a little less than impressed. Especially with the number of capstones that grant immunity to this one.
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"She cannot be detected by any means..." is pretty absolute. If that is not what the designers meant they need to change it. If it was what they meant then they don't need to change it of course.
My only issue is I don't know how to heal a penalty to an ability score.
My only issue is I don't know how to heal a penalty to an ability score.
I think it's supposed to act like ability damage. But that would only concern someone who wants to heal it during combat anyway. All ability penalties disappear over a short time.
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To me anything without a counter is sillyWhy can't wish or miracle counter it?
"I wish we could detect this foe."
"Lord, tear away the veil that guards our enemy."
You seriously would say 'no it doesn't work' as a DM?
i would LOVE to say i would allow a wish like this to bypass it BUT by RAW it is against the rules.
"Can't reveal does not equal no counter."
As for that i agree you can do certain things to make the ability not worth while such as killing them (somehow) but by no counter i mean there is no way to get around the invisibility effect other than waiting it out and that isn't really a counter.
I think it's supposed to act like ability damage. But that would only concern someone who wants to heal it during combat anyway. All ability penalties disappear over a short time.
My only issue is I don't know how to heal a penalty to an ability score.
It might but by RAW I see no way to heal it. It is only about 2 minutes, but that is the entire fight.
This might actually help the ninja since the cleric(other healer) is trying to help a party member instead of making sure the ninja dies.
How is it against the rules? The wish suppresses the ability, and the ninja is detectable again.
I would allow the Wish to automatically target the ninja with a dispel magic, but not automatically turn it off since that would set a precedent for automatically turning other things off.
I don't see the problem with the invisibility. I've seen lower level players who have had to deal with invisible creatures with out the ability to counter the invisibility. It's not that there was no way to counter it they just didn't have any of those option available at the time. The encounter was tougher but they managed with locating the square and suffering the 50% miss chance.
How is it against the rules? The wish suppresses the ability, and the ninja is detectable again.I would allow the Wish to automatically target the ninja with a dispel magic, but not automatically turn it off since that would set a precedent for automatically turning other things off.
But Dispel magic fails vs Supernatural abilities so wasted a Wish.
To me anything without a counter is sillyWhy can't wish or miracle counter it?
"I wish we could detect this foe."
"Lord, tear away the veil that guards our enemy."
You seriously would say 'no it doesn't work' as a DM?
Cannot be detected by any means is pretty explicit. Also, weren't you going to ignore this thread? Posting with one account snidely saying you are going to ignore it, then posting with another is disingenuous.
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You didn't get how what I said is pertaining to your complaint about the ninja being overpowered?
....
Fine, I'll illustrate. The ninja gets the equivalent to a capstone ability, at level 10. That is indicative of a very powerful class. There are counters to this, it's just that you then have to deal with a 50% miss chance. Figure out where he's standing, start swinging, eat 50% miss chance, eventually kill him, in theory.
Not melee? Figure out his square, shoot him, don't worry about the 50% miss chance, thanks to improved precise shot.
Caster? Area of effect spells. You're level 20, there's several of those that either don't have saves, or have fort saves associated with them.
If you realize the ninja is there, the fight becomes a lot more even. Otherwise: they are assassins, they kill people, they are notoriously efficient at it, it's a level 20 ability, something most people will never see, and you should stop trying to ruin the fun of others by complaining.
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But Dispel magic fails vs Supernatural abilities so wasted a Wish.How is it against the rules? The wish suppresses the ability, and the ninja is detectable again.I would allow the Wish to automatically target the ninja with a dispel magic, but not automatically turn it off since that would set a precedent for automatically turning other things off.
Actually the ninja used the SU to cast a spell which is quiet silly to me. They even gave the ninja a caster level for it so it. I can't see how they did not see the confusion that would cause. I guess I will make a thread asking them to fix it(make it an SU or an SLA).
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I would allow the Wish to automatically target the ninja with a dispel magic, but not automatically turn it off since that would set a precedent for automatically turning other things off.
And this is a problem why? We're talking about Wish, it's supposed to be the most powerful spell, right? And cost a bundle to use as well.
What other things are you concerned about?
It seems to me that vanishing trick at 2 and assassinate at 10 are way more powerful at the level that you get them then hidden master.
I would allow the Wish to automatically target the ninja with a dispel magic, but not automatically turn it off since that would set a precedent for automatically turning other things off.And this is a problem why? We're talking about Wish, it's supposed to be the most powerful spell, right? And cost a bundle to use as well.
What other things are you concerned about?
Don't you frequently go around crying wolf about how overpowered casters are?
I would allow the Wish to automatically target the ninja with a dispel magic, but not automatically turn it off since that would set a precedent for automatically turning other things off.And this is a problem why? We're talking about Wish, it's supposed to be the most powerful spell, right? And cost a bundle to use as well.
What other things are you concerned about?
That does not mean it should just turn things off at will. 25000 is not enough to pay to auto turn an ability off.
PS:The 25000 gp may be the wrong price.
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You don't even want to be convinced on how you are wrong. You are so dead-set, so sure, that you are right, that you don't even want to discuss ways of getting around one ability no one will ever see if they start at level 1.
So explain to me: why should we bother trying to convince you otherwise? I don't think we should frankly, as such you are wasting Paizo's money with this thread.
I think it's supposed to act like ability damage. But that would only concern someone who wants to heal it during combat anyway. All ability penalties disappear over a short time.
My only issue is I don't know how to heal a penalty to an ability score.It might but by RAW I see no way to heal it. It is only about 2 minutes, but that is the entire fight.
This might actually help the ninja since the cleric(other healer) is trying to help a party member instead of making sure the ninja dies.
Greater Restoration "dispels all magical effects penalizing the creature's abilities" and so can address this effect.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Heh. Blur.
"A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment."
Congratulations, your awesome ability penalty has just been shut down... by a second level spell.
For more fun... Faerie Fire
"Outlined creatures do not benefit from the concealment normally provided by darkness (though a 2nd-level or higher magical darkness effect functions normally), blur, displacement, invisibility, or similar effects."
Might want to widen it, but saving throw, none.
"I am the mighty Ninja! Master of invisibil- why do I have this glowing outline around me? Aieeeeeeeee! I am slain!"
dont you have to see him first to cast that?
I think the wording states magical means dont work. just my reading of it.
I looked it up, it's a burst effect. 5' normally, that's 4 squares, widen it to 10'r and if you have a vauge notion, then you should be able to nail him.
Greater Restoration "dispels all magical effects penalizing the creature's abilities" and so can address this effect.I think it's supposed to act like ability damage. But that would only concern someone who wants to heal it during combat anyway. All ability penalties disappear over a short time.
My only issue is I don't know how to heal a penalty to an ability score.It might but by RAW I see no way to heal it. It is only about 2 minutes, but that is the entire fight.
This might actually help the ninja since the cleric(other healer) is trying to help a party member instead of making sure the ninja dies.
Unfortunately it takes 10 rounds to cast. :(
"She cannot be detected by any means..." is pretty absolute. If that is not what the designers meant they need to change it. If it was what they meant then they don't need to change it of course.
My only issue is I don't know how to heal a penalty to an ability score.
Please note that doesn't defeat uncanny dodge though since it doesn't detect anything -- it simply stops me from being denied my dex bonus. Same with blind fight actually.
I would allow the Wish to automatically target the ninja with a dispel magic, but not automatically turn it off since that would set a precedent for automatically turning other things off.And this is a problem why? We're talking about Wish, it's supposed to be the most powerful spell, right?
It also has rules on what it can do. It can force a re-roll, but not cause an automatic failure.
Unfortunately it takes 10 rounds to cast. :(Greater Restoration "dispels all magical effects penalizing the creature's abilities" and so can address this effect.I think it's supposed to act like ability damage. But that would only concern someone who wants to heal it during combat anyway. All ability penalties disappear over a short time.
My only issue is I don't know how to heal a penalty to an ability score.It might but by RAW I see no way to heal it. It is only about 2 minutes, but that is the entire fight.
This might actually help the ninja since the cleric(other healer) is trying to help a party member instead of making sure the ninja dies.
Irrelevant to the specific issue--the question is is there a way to remove ability penalties. The answer is yes, Greater Restoration (and note that Miracle can be used to cast this as a Standard Action).
Stepping away from a strict and actually rather insane interpretation of RAW here I want to look at how it is from behind the screen.
The way OP has described it as a GM I'd be a total a*$#+%& to use this on players at any level and they would maul me alive. Yes, maul. I GM for kodiaks. It makes things more exciting. Anyway the ninja can't be detected and in a full attack I can easily cripple the party. At least as the OP describes it.
It feels like the great "rocks fall, people die" power given written form.
So honestly I'd never use nor allow a player to use it as described since he'll make encounters rather boring by themselves. Never mind not being able to sneak attack ten rounds or so of unanswerable attacks is enough.
So, really never mind asking how one would counter what appears to be uncounterable by some of what's being tossed around here. One should worry about the survival of their game when it appears the GM is arbitrarily murdering characters.
This is why RAI exists because I'm positive that's not what the desginers meant for it to do.