So, I have come to decide that scrolls, and probably potions/oils, are the most overlooked magic items used in the games I DM for. I haven't used them much myself, to be honest. But the more I look at them, the more I am thinking they should be a very high priority for pretty much anyone.
I'm getting visions in my head of making a super charismatic fighter who can fill the roll of the caster via scrolls, but still lay the smack down as a fighter... because he's a fighter.
Does anyone else find that scrolls are overlooked? or how useful are they in your games, and how are they typically used?
I think i can count the scrolls we used in game on one hand. in about ten years of D&D/Pathfinder.
potions more so cause we reduced the price as a houserule to one-fifth :)
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We had for the most part overlooked them as well. But then I joined a group of all noobies. The DM, a friend of mine, asked me to participate so the group would have one person who knew more what they were doing and could help by being an example. The wizard in the group must have seen the usefulness of scrolls as he always had them handy. Mostly more offensive scrolls that he had crafted himself, but as we leveled he had plenty of utility scrolls as well. Towards the end of the campaign, he wouldn't go anywhere without 1-3 scrolls of time stop for when the poo hit the fan.
He figured if it was a class ability he got at first level, he should make use of it. Which makes a whole lot of sense.
@ Puma, I can see how scrolls would take a backseat to potions with that house rule. The big draw of scrolls is they're cheaper than potions, though they can also be of any spell where potions are particular about which spell can be a potion.
Detect secret doors for my wizard.
Clear a level of a dungeon, then cast it and move like the wind. Soon as you get a ping, someone drops a marker in the area, keep on going. Then, you only search the rooms with the pings. Still can't find the door? Well, chances are there's something on the other side worth more than the 12.5 gp it cost to make the scroll, so use another.
Scrolls of shield are golden, too, if you hear the growling on the other side of the door. Same with protection from evil. Obscuring mist. Lots of great spells that don't inflict saving throws and usually last long enough during high-level combat at first caster level.
Last time I played a wizard I had to make a seperate sheet for all the scrolls I was carrying in my Handy Haversack.
They are best for the utility spells that you don't memorize everyday, but it also never hurts to have an extra cone of cold handy when you need it.
They are cheap to scribe with spells that have effects that are not dependant on Caster Level, or ones that are still very useful at lower levels. A 1st level teleport is only 62.5 gp to scribe and will still take you 100 miles in any direction.
Mnemonic Enhancer, Phantasmal Killer, Sending, Secret Chest, Dismissal, and a host of other spells are top picks to be scribed as CL 1.
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I've found that it depends on what spell the scroll/potion/oil is replicating.
If it's an arcane scroll the wizard can use, but dosen't have in their spellbook, then it's only ever being used to put it in there.
Due to the cleric's channel energy ability, Cure spells are always kept but seldom used when I play Pathfinder.
Damage spells of 1st-4th lvl are almost always sold to help pay for wands.
Everything else tends to get sold unless it's something that can remove a status effect that the paladin's mercies can't.
The barbarian on the other hand loves potions of rage after our cleric of Cayden Cailean said that when she makes them, they are in fact magical shots of whiskey. Typical, but I find it funny nonetheless.
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They are cheap to scribe with spells that have effects that are not dependant on Caster Level, or ones that are still very useful at lower levels. A 1st level teleport is only 62.5 gp to scribe and will still take you 100 miles in any direction.
1st level teleport? A scrolls caster level has to be the minimum required to cast the spell of that level. So the lowest for teleport is 9 (i think).
They are cheap to scribe with spells that have effects that are not dependant on Caster Level, or ones that are still very useful at lower levels. A 1st level teleport is only 62.5 gp to scribe and will still take you 100 miles in any direction.
1st level teleport? A scrolls caster level has to be the minimum required to cast the spell of that level. So the lowest for teleport is 9 (i think).
If a wizard were scribing Teleport, the minimum caster level would be 9. You can't scribe a scroll with a caster level lower than the minimum required to cast the spell.
EDIT: Under Magic Item Creation in the PRD: A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell.
My players tend to either use or sell most of the scrolls they find, but that's mostly because one of my first Pathfinder house rules was that I use the following costs for ALL wands.
0 level- 500g
1 level- 3000g
2 level- 6000g
3 level- 15000g
4 level- 30000g
This, coupled with the combination of slow monetary advancement level and that wands in my game can only hold arcane spells, has put a bit of a dent in the "Lets carry around a Handy Haversack stuffed with Wands of CLW!!!" mindset of my players. (Although admittedly, the Witch player has been known to craft a few of them from time to time)
Potions are the same as Core Rulebook, but all use the Wizard costs.
Scrolls are also the same, but use the Sorcerer costs.
Scrolls often end up eaten by the Witch or Wizard of the party since I like to put new spells in the game via them.
I do not use scrolls taht much at low levels but I have given them out an ususally used by wizard to add spells to spellbook in my expirence. Have seen scrolls used a few times in a play by post.
Does anyone else find that scrolls are overlooked? or how useful are they in your games, and how are they typically used?
They used to be over looked badly in my campaign too, until the day I played DDO (Dungeons & Dragons Online) and realized how fast the casters were running out of spells. From that point one i encouraged my casters to invest in scrolls and wands to cover those other wise down times in combat when they could be doing SOMETHING. If they felt that there was too much down time in which they could do nothing i have either encouraged them to multi-class / re-roll or spend time reviewing available tactics & spell selections. Example: FireBall is a great spell but is an insta-cast and your done, vs summon monster which would allow you to cast once and then have something to do for the next several rounds (assuming you are controlling your pets instead of the DM of course).
Your worse case scenario is when your cleric gets to you (and your ALL kinds of jacked up) and they are out of spells. To correct this my characters did the same thing we did in the military...i carried my own first aid pack. It was filled with scrolls (which cost 1/2 of what a potion costs) and contained spells like: Raise Dead, Regenerate, Stone to Flesh, Cure Disease, Cure Poison...etc... My theory was a simple one, when my healer gets to me I don't care how pretty you look, Get me back on my feet!
It is also for this same reason that i never encourage PC's to actually BUY potions unless it is for spells that the party casters cant cast. The only ones in the party that should be encouraged to actually buy / create potions is the healer anyway, that way if they are the ones that are all jacked when the Fighter gets to them they can give you a nice healing potion....instead of standing there looking pretty! :) Finding potions normally through a course of an adventure are of course another matter and would be distributed normally based upon who would likely need it the most. But NEVER forget to make sure your healer has at least a couple of good ones on them too!
One problem with scrolls is caster level. If your PC finds a scroll but its CL is too high, then using it isn't a sure thing.
One problem with scrolls is caster level. If your PC finds a scroll but its CL is too high, then using it isn't a sure thing.
You might want to look at just how low the chances of mishap are... it's not a sure thing, but it is darn close.
Sean Mahoney
You might want to look at just how low the chances of mishap are... it's not a sure thing, but it is darn close.
Exactly. If I'm not mistaken (I may be carrying something over from 3.5 or just something I made up) you only need to roll the difference between your level and the scroll's level. So if you're level 5, and you find a level 9 scroll, you need to roll a 4 in order to cast it (since the DC is, again if I'm not mistaken, a 9, and you roll 1d20 + your caster level). A natural 1 is always a failure I believe, but still.
As for scrolls, I can't understand why someone would NOT carry around tons of scrolls. As another poster, anytime I play a spellcaster I keep a separate sheet of just scrolls- sure I can prepare spells, but why would I prepare something situational (like Neutralize Poison) when I can prepare something that help all the time (like Cure Critical Wounds)? That's what scrolls are for. One guy I used to play with would literally hang onto single-use items like scrolls for the majority of his career just in case he needed them. (He was a sorcerer, so his spell selection was quite limited.) In our last adventure, we were in a bar full of civilians that went into a panic when the city was attacked by an army of demons. We didn't know what to do to keep them all under control, until the Sorcerer reached into his pack and said, "Alright, I've been hanging onto this for over ten levels, it's time to use it." He then pulled out a scroll with a few Sleep spells on it, and got the situation under control.
I have two major problems with scrolls and potions.
First, I, as a player, avoid "wasting" my money on expensive, one-use items when that money could have gone toward a permanent item instead. The only scrolls I tend to make as a wizard are first level ones, since they are only 12.5 gp, which is a cost I can stomach. Spending thousands of gold to cast one spell, on the other hand, is something that makes me wince.
Second, scrolls and potions use the minimum caster level and save DC for the spell (unless you pay even more money to make a higher caster level scroll, end even then it still uses the minimum save DC). This makes some scrolls much more useful than others. For example, endure elements lasts 24 hours at any level, so it's a worthwhile scroll. Magic missile, on the other hand, totally sucks at 1st caster level, so it's not worth putting on a scroll (and that's not even taking into account things like dispel magic and spell resistance, which can make scrolls even less effective). And if spell allows a saving throw? Forget it. If scrolls worked like staffs, using the caster's own level and save DC, I'd be much more willing to make/buy them.
I have two major problems with scrolls and potions.
First, I, as a player, avoid "wasting" my money on expensive, one-use items when that money could have gone toward a permanent item instead. The only scrolls I tend to make as a wizard are first level ones, since they are only 12.5 gp, which is a cost I can stomach. Spending thousands of gold to cast one spell, on the other hand, is something that makes me wince.
Second, scrolls and potions use the minimum caster level and save DC for the spell (unless you pay even more money to make a higher caster level scroll, end even then it still uses the minimum save DC). This makes some scrolls much more useful than others. For example, endure elements lasts 24 hours at any level, so it's a worthwhile scroll. Magic missile, on the other hand, totally sucks at 1st caster level, so it's not worth putting on a scroll (and that's not even taking into account things like dispel magic and spell resistance, which can make scrolls even less effective). And if spell allows a saving throw? Forget it. If scrolls worked like staffs, using the caster's own level and save DC, I'd be much more willing to make/buy them.
That's why you put spells on scrolls where save DC and caster level are irrelevant. Endure elements, as you've noted, is fine. You can also keep some curing spells on scrolls for those just-in-case moments (though I will note that several status-removal spells now require caster level checks), as well as utility magic. You most definitely use your own spell slots for things where save DC and/or caster level matters.
First, I, as a player, avoid "wasting" my money on expensive, one-use items when that money could have gone toward a permanent item instead.
If you have the Scribe Scroll feat and a large spells known list (primarily wizards but it is a beautiful feat for divine casters who just get to know their whole list), any scribed scroll is just stored money, not wasted money. At any time you can choose to sell that scroll off and get your full amount of money back from it. This means that if you are saving up for something, you should be storing your cash in the form of scrolls! They are an investment in your future and all proceeds go to the orphans... ok, I went too far, but you can see my point.
By having your stored money in scroll form of situational spells, you can make the call at the time the spell would be perfect if it is worth the cost.
"Wow, this Blood Transcription would be AWESOME right now... is it worth the 75 gold I spent on it to learn that cool spell I just saw that sorcerer use against us?"
And then you make the call... if it is worth more than 75 gold you cast the spell from the scroll... if not you get back your 75 gold whenever you happen to need it.
The only scrolls I tend to make as a wizard are first level ones, since they are only 12.5 gp, which is a cost I can stomach. Spending thousands of gold to cast one spell, on the other hand, is something that makes me wince.
It's all about "would I pay X for this effect which is perfect for this situation right now?" if the answer is no you don't cast it. But if there is a levitate spell you can cast that gets you up to extra treasure or a detect secret doors that will also likely find you more treasure, aren't those no brainers?
Another tack you COULD take would be to store your money as situational spells, as above, but rather than you answering that question pose it to your group.
"Hey would the group be willing to reimburse me what it cost me to make this spell for this effect right now?"
It's pretty mercenary, but I bet you get a lot of "yes" and then get reimbursed out of party funds so you aren't out cash.
(note: this can lead down a bad path where clerics ask party members to pay for healing and then fighters ask for reimbursement per sword swing... many parties would not take kindly to this at all)
Second, scrolls and potions use the minimum caster level and save DC for the spell (unless you pay even more money to make a higher caster level scroll, end even then it still uses the minimum save DC). This makes some scrolls much more useful than others.
This is a REALLY good point.
I find it useful to actually categorize my spells by if they are good scroll/wand spells or if they should be memorized. There are some that I cast all the time but putting them in a wand leaves my spell slots free for spells that my casting stat and caster level can make a difference on.
Definitely something that any scribe scroll user should keep in mind.
You might want to look at just how low the chances of mishap are... it's not a sure thing, but it is darn close.Exactly. If I'm not mistaken (I may be carrying something over from 3.5 or just something I made up) you only need to roll the difference between your level and the scroll's level. So if you're level 5, and you find a level 9 scroll, you need to roll a 4 in order to cast it (since the DC is, again if I'm not mistaken, a 9, and you roll 1d20 + your caster level). A natural 1 is always a failure I believe, but still.
I had to go look it up to be sure, but here is how it works:
"[if your] caster level is lower than the scroll spell's caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll's caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully."
So a first level wizard using a scroll of fireball would need to make a caster level check at +1 for his level against a DC 6... so roll a five or higher... not too tough.
What happens if you fail because of a bad roll? Probably nothing. To prevent a mishap you have to make a DC 5 wisdom check. Now if you dumped wisdom this might be a little harder but assuming a 10 wisdom, you still only have a 25% chance of anything worse than a wasted action (which could be a big deal, but may be worth the risk, or may mean nothing if out of combat).
(also note here that these rules also apply to clerics who are casting spells of a higher level, and they are much less likely to have dumped Wis... can you Wis 18 cleric pass a DC 5 wis check? Yeah, I thought so).
So the surge result if all your roles go bad kind of suck, but nothing you wouldn't be able to handle in most situations... but the lower the level you are the more they will hurt.
In the above example the fireball might go off but be centered on the wizard. As a first level wizard you probably have 10-11 hp and would then be taking 3d6 or an average of 10.5... so likely it would take you into negatives... so maybe something to mess around with when you have more levels under your belt (and when you can afford the scrolls).
Anyway... knowing the odds of working (good) can let you make an informed decision about using the spell. Buying a spell at a level before you can cast it means you can keep it around for an emergency and if you don't end up using it by the time you can cast it then you just go ahead and learn the scroll.
Additionally... while saves and level dependent effects usually suck on scrolls, if you are casting something that is higher than the CR of the monsters you are fighting it might actually have higher damage potential and save DCs than you could produce alone... something to think about.
I for one haven't really ever bought scrolls of a level higher than I could cast... actually looking at the rules though, I think I need to reconsider that... could be a really good tactic! Fireball isn't the best spell but if you cast one with a CL 5 while you are still level 2 it would be a VERY powerful spell.
Sean Mahoney
That's why you put spells on scrolls where save DC and caster level are irrelevant. Endure elements, as you've noted, is fine. You can also keep some curing spells on scrolls for those just-in-case moments (though I will note that several status-removal spells now require caster level checks), as well as utility magic. You most definitely use your own spell slots for things where save DC and/or caster level matters.
Unfortunately, the vast majority of spells aren't like endure elements, where CL and save DC are irrelevant (and even in those niche cases, it's still relevant for things like dispel magic). If scrolls worked like staffs, where a caster could use his own level and save DCs, I'd actually be a bit tempted to invest money into scrolls. Right now, there are just too few spells that are even worth scribing.
That's why you put spells on scrolls where save DC and caster level are irrelevant. Endure elements, as you've noted, is fine. You can also keep some curing spells on scrolls for those just-in-case moments (though I will note that several status-removal spells now require caster level checks), as well as utility magic. You most definitely use your own spell slots for things where save DC and/or caster level matters.Unfortunately, the vast majority of spells aren't like endure elements, where CL and save DC are irrelevant (and even in those niche cases, it's still relevant for things like dispel magic). If scrolls worked like staffs, where a caster could use his own level and save DCs, I'd actually be a bit tempted to invest money into scrolls. Right now, there are just too few spells that are even worth scribing.
Some things just aren't likely to be dispelled, as they aren't worth targeting. Others are instantaneous and thus impervious to dispelling. Many are not, you're right about that. I'd have no objection myself to letting scrolls work like staves. But I still like to keep a few around for various purposes. I know the party in our last slept better knowing I had a scroll of resurrection handy; my character certainly did! And a planar ally scroll came in useful later to barter for some reconnaisance, instead of doing it myself.
I have two major problems with scrolls and potions.
First, I, as a player, avoid "wasting" my money on expensive, one-use items when that money could have gone toward a permanent item instead.
That's the way I have thought in the past, and my players think too. but the more I look at the utility of them, as well as the fact that anyone with a high UMD check can make use of them, I'm becoming more convinced that they can be real game changers.
AS I have been preparing for my campaign I was building a higher level Kensai as a potential enemy for the players. I figured out that with some not too difficult UMD checks, he could use both versions of spell immunity, and he could use scrolls of globe of invulnerability (and lesser). The player's party's only full caster is a druid, otherwise they have a bard, kensai, and paladin caster. I do have a GMPC sorcerer with them right now, but that is a very fluid situation, and basically so I can learn and playtest wordcasting... and a wordcaster is also a very good option to use scrolls with.
Anyways, my point is, my preparations as a DM have led me to believe that a lot of potential danger for some characters can be muted or even removed by a scroll or two used in the right place, that a cloak of resistance, or armor, or anything else would not be able to accomplish.
I'm finding that it's almost crucial for corner case stuff as a spontaneous divine caster.
Run into a situation where permanent paralysis is your obstacle? For a cleric, 24 hours tops and you've got an answer. Speed bump, but that's fine.
Run into this situation with an Oracle and oh? Remove Paralysis is not one of your two chosen spells for that level? Shucks.. guess you are going to have to cut your dungeon crawl a little short, drag someone's paralyzed butt miles back to town and get your act together.
Some important-in-that-one-specific-situation:
Remove Curse (less useful in Pathfinder)
Remove Blindness/Deafness
Remove Disease (less useful in Pathfinder)
Remove Paralysis
Break Enchantment
Barring unique campaign settings, these are spells that would be bright sore thumbs in a spontaneous caster's short, short spell list... but are hair-tearingly desirable in the one situation that could really use it.
I'd put the restoration line on there, except that they are so universally useful/used that I can't imagine not having them as a chosen spell even as a spontaneous caster. They aren't used all the time, but they are used often enough and for varied enough situations (traps, and a multitude of enemy abilities) that it's not a waste having it there.