Ok we all know that when you use a combat maneuver with a weapon that supports it (for example trip with a temple sword, disarm with a Ranseur) you get the enchantment bonus of the weapon in your CMB but what happens with the sunder? There is no weapon with the sunder special quality, do all of the weapons count as "sudering"? no weapon gives you it's enchantment bonus to sunder?
Thank you.
do all of the weapons count as "sudering"?
I don't have a citation, but if you're using the weapon to sunder, then the enhancement bonus would fall under "any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects."
Whereas with trip, without the trip quality, you're not making the trip with the weapon, but with your body.
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do all of the weapons count as "sudering"?I don't have a citation, but if you're using the weapon to sunder, then the enhancement bonus would fall under "any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects."
Whereas with trip, without the trip quality, you're not making the trip with the weapon, but with your body.
Correct. Interesting that Sunder doesn't actually say you use the weapon, but seeing as you hit the weapon and deal damage to it "as normal", presumably you're using a weapon. Seems a reasonable extrapolation, and no rules or FAQs seem to suggest otherwise.
Ok we all know that when you use a combat maneuver with a weapon that supports it (for example trip with a temple sword, disarm with a Ranseur) you get the enchantment bonus of the weapon in your CMB but what happens with the sunder? There is no weapon with the sunder special quality, do all of the weapons count as "sudering"? no weapon gives you it's enchantment bonus to sunder?
Thank you.
I think the Lucern Hammer gives a Sunder bonus.
The Lucerne Hammer grants a " +2 bonus to your CMB to sunder medium or heavy armor", but it does not have a "Sunder" Special (Just brace & reach) [None of the weapons listed on the D20PFSRD website with the Sunder Special have that information listed on the PRD, just "See Text"]
Core: Sai grants +2 to sunder CMBs, Adamantine weapons bypass hardness 20 when sundering.
APG: Bec de Corbin (and Lucerne Hammer, as noted above) grant +2 to sunder some armors. Swordbreaker Dagger grants +4 to sunder (and disarm!) blades.
But none of these weapons have the "Sunder" special quality (or what ever it is called) that would allow the addition of the Plus of the weapon, Weapon Foucs, Weapon Training etc, to be added to the CMB.
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But none of these weapons have the "Sunder" special quality (or what ever it is called) that would allow the addition of the Plus of the weapon, Weapon Foucs, Weapon Training etc, to be added to the CMB.
I wasn't aware that there WAS a "sunder" weapon quality.
There is on the D20PFSRD site, but not the PRD. I do not believe it exists either. I should have added that to my previous post.
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But none of these weapons have the "Sunder" special quality (or what ever it is called) that would allow the addition of the Plus of the weapon, Weapon Foucs, Weapon Training etc, to be added to the CMB.
Those are just examples showing that you use the weapon to perform the maneuver.
Also, Damaging Magic Weapons: "An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon struck."
These all show that you are using the weapon to perform the sunder combat maneuver. (Different from Trip, where you do not use a weapon unless it is specifically built for it: "You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks.")
CMB: "Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver."
Since you are using the weapon to perform the sunder, the enhancement bonus (etc.) are applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver, and thus are added to the CMB.
Also, for Disarm, from what I can tell, you -can- disarm with a regular weapon, and apply it's bonuses to the CMB.
You can disarm while unarmed (at -4).
Thus, you can disarm while armed (to negate the -4) and if you fail by 10+ "you drop the weapon that you were using to attempt the disarm."
When you use a weapon with the Disarm special feature: "When you use a disarm weapon, you get a +2 bonus on Combat Maneuver Checks to disarm an enemy."
This differs from Trip, which states "You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks..." meaning you can't use a non-trip weapon to make trip attacks.
Since you're using the non-disarm weapon to make the disarm combat maneuver, it's enhancement bonus to hit would apply to the CMB.
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Also, for Disarm, from what I can tell, you -can- disarm with a regular weapon, and apply it's bonuses to the CMB.
You can disarm while unarmed (at -4).
Thus, you can disarm while armed (to negate the -4) and if you fail by 10+ "you drop the weapon that you were using to attempt the disarm."
When you use a weapon with the Disarm special feature: "When you use a disarm weapon, you get a +2 bonus on Combat Maneuver Checks to disarm an enemy."
This differs from Trip, which states "You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks..." meaning you can't use a non-trip weapon to make trip attacks.
Since you're using the non-disarm weapon to make the disarm combat maneuver, it's enhancement bonus to hit would apply to the CMB.
Grick, you're high on my list of forumites with a good head for rules.
Thank you all.
Still no word whether the "enhancement bonus" for being able to sunder magic weapons counts overal bonus or just plain enhancement bonus?
Still no word whether the "enhancement bonus" for being able to sunder magic weapons counts overal bonus or just plain enhancement bonus?
I'm not sure what you mean.
If you are using a +3 Longsword to sunder the orc club, you add the +3 enhancement bonus to hit to your CMB. You also add the +3 enhancement bonus to damage to your damage roll.
If you're asking if, say, Bless and Weapon Focus count as an enhancement bonus in order to sunder a weapon with a higher bonus than yours, then no. You need a +3 weapon to sunder a +3 weapon. A +2 weapon with Weapon Focus will not break it.
-edit-
Oh, do you mean "Can a mundane Sai sunder a +1 longsword because it gets a +2 to sunder attempts?"
No, it doesn't. You get that bonus to your CMB roll, but without a magical enhancement bonus of +1 or higher, you will be unable to actually damage it. The +2 bonus from the Sai is untyped, not enhancement.
Still no word whether the "enhancement bonus" for being able to sunder magic weapons counts overal bonus or just plain enhancement bonus?I'm not sure what you mean.
If you are using a +3 Longsword to sunder the orc club, you add the +3 enhancement bonus to hit to your CMB. You also add the +3 enhancement bonus to damage to your damage roll.
If you're asking if, say, Bless and Weapon Focus count as an enhancement bonus in order to sunder a weapon with a higher bonus than yours, then no. You need a +3 weapon to sunder a +3 weapon. A +2 weapon with Weapon Focus will not break it.
-edit-
Oh, do you mean "Can a mundane Sai sunder a +1 longsword because it gets a +2 to sunder attempts?"No, it doesn't. You get that bonus to your CMB roll, but without a magical enhancement bonus of +1 or higher, you will be unable to actually damage it. The +2 bonus from the Sai is untyped, not enhancement.
No i ask if i can use my +3 longsword to sunder a +2 holy shortsword.
No i ask if i can use my +3 longsword to sunder a +2 holy shortsword.
I'm curious as to this as well as the opposite...can the +2 holy shortsword be used to sunder the +3 longsword?
That's my interpretation as well, Jiggy, but I wonder if it's true since weapons can go up to a total of +10 enhancements (without being epic). Why couldn't a +10 total enhancement weapon sunder a +9 total enhancement weapon, even though the +10 is only +4 to hit/damage while the +9 is +5 to hit/damage?
In my game I run it based off of the to hit/damage enhancement bonus, but I don't know that that is RAW or if it's just personal preference. Thanks!
That's my interpretation as well, Jiggy, but I wonder if it's true since weapons can go up to a total of +10 enhancements (without being epic). Why couldn't a +10 total enhancement weapon sunder a +9 total enhancement weapon, even though the +10 is only +4 to hit/damage while the +9 is +5 to hit/damage?
In my game I run it based off of the to hit/damage enhancement bonus, but I don't know that that is RAW or if it's just personal preference. Thanks!
I also slightly lean torwards that but i am not sure, that's why i asked if there was any word to that.
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In my game I run it based off of the to hit/damage enhancement bonus, but I don't know that that is RAW or if it's just personal preference. Thanks!
Well, it's actually pretty simple:
If you can find any place in the rules that equates a weapon ability to an enhancement bonus outside the context of pricing, then there you go.
If, however, the only references to those comparisons are for pricing purposes, then to suggest anything else is to add to the rules (which if you want to houserule, that's obviously fine).
I haven't scoured the entire CRB for this, but so far I've only found it in regard to pricing, so option #2 is the only rational conclusion.
As an aside, that seems reasonable too. I mean, enhancement bonuses do represent raw destructive power.
As an aside, that seems reasonable too. I mean, enhancement bonuses do represent raw destructive power.
Although i understand that and as i said that's the deriction i lean to, on the other hand overall enchantment bonus represent magical power.
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Although i understand that and as i said that's the deriction i lean to, on the other hand overall enchantment bonus represent magical power.
As an aside, that seems reasonable too. I mean, enhancement bonuses do represent raw destructive power.
Of course, we're both just talking fluff here. As for actual rules, see the rest of my post above.
It seems as if they do specify that a magic weapon has (possibly) two sets of bonuses on it: enhancement bonus (representing the +1 to +5 bonus to attack and damage) and special abilities (bane, keen, etc.). The total of the two bonuses cannot exceed +10.
I was mistakenly calling the special ability bonus an additional enhancement bonus, but it doesn't seem as if that's the case. That tells me that only the enhancement bonus is what is used to determine what can sunder what. Now I know for sure! /salute