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I would like some feedback from other GMs on how to handle impossible faction quests. Example: the quest can only be met by sleight of hand, and player does not have sleight of hand.
They can ask other players at the table for help. They don't have to necessairly be truthful in their explanation of why they need item X. The other players can choose to help or not.
If you're in a situation where no one at the table has the required skill, what I've done is, in some cases, allowed players to make multiple checks to accomplish the same goal
no sleight of hand = stealth check, dex check and a perception check
if they make all of those then they can claim the item.
I have a hard time with the 1 shot skill checks. It seems like some of these modules have just ridiculously high DCs, like requiring a 20 on a diplomacy/bluff check for a 1-2 level module.But that's also why I hate dump stats. A -1 Charisma modifier means you can't even make the save on a 20.
Getting two prestige per scenario is not an automatic thing. One is supposed to be harder to do and one is supposed to be easier, at least in Seasons 1 and 2 and in the Season 0 scenarios that have 2 instead of 1 faction mission. With Season 3 being one faction mission and one complete the main goal mission for prestige, I think the faction mission is supposed to be on the hard side.
Also, while neither the current PFS head, nor those in charge before him, would come right out and say what percentage of prestige an average player should earn, they gave enough hints in posts that many others on the forums felt it was right around 1.5 prestige per scenario. In other words, the average player should miss out one one prestige every other scenario.
And while rewarding creativity is good if they can think of an alternate way to earn the point, do not give it to them on a silver platter. If someone builds a character poorly or if the character is alright but just does not have the non-combat skills needed, then they are out of luck and need to learn what is really needed for their next character.
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rpgsavant, yeah that can be tough since a 20 is not an automatic success on a skill check. But maybe you used the wrong word and did not mean save, since a 20 on a saving throw is an automatic success.
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I think one of the main problems is trying to manage player expectations of what their characters should be getting for Prestige.
I agree with Enevhar that an average of 1.5 is what should be expected, but when a survey was done on these boards recently the actual average was more like 1.75.
Still, that means you're not going to get them all. And having missions that use less common skills, or higher DCs, rewards players who take flavour choices. As well, it somewhat balances the scales for those characters who are focused on things other than combat.
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I would like some feedback from other GMs on how to handle impossible faction quests. Example: the quest can only be met by sleight of hand, and player does not have sleight of hand.
I have also allowed my players to hire an NPC expert if it is viable for the particular Magruffin (IIRC one player wound up hiring a stonemason to take apart a statue). If the local city supports it I don't see why not. Hiring a pickpocket might be somewhat more complex though.
I'm reminded of a time when I was playing also and our wizard was making doe eyes and trying to talk an npc out of a book, and the NPC was having none of it. A rogue (of the cat burglar archetype IIRC) in another faction took a dislike to the NPC and decided to gift our wizard with a book.
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I have also allowed my players to hire an NPC expert if it is viable for the particular Magruffin (IIRC one player wound up hiring a stonemason to take apart a statue). If the local city supports it I don't see why not. Hiring a pickpocket might be somewhat more complex though.
Hiring like this does work (at least from the old Guide,) so long as the NPC can sit in his chair and still do the job. I.E. They don't have to move and you can bring the job to them. Not 100% on the new version, but I would be surprised if they took it out.
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This is how I have handled impossible faction missions in the past.
Now this is a while ago, but I was running Assault on the Kingdom of the Impossible.
For one of the Osirion factions missions, they had to make a perception check to find the right statue and then whisper in its left ear, " in greatness for Pharoh", all of which I liked..... But then they had to make a disable device check to remove the head.... now I can understand that it isn’t a big stretch for a writer to assume a party of dungeon delvers has access to the Disable Device skill, but my party consisted of a ranger, a wizard, a monk, and a fighter. So no disable device. Since Disable Device is a Trained only skill, and none of my players were rogues, if I went strictly by the module’s text, thee would have been no possibility of the two Osirion players, (a monk and a fighter) to complete one of their faction missions. I wanted to give the players at least a chance, so I allowed I think a Knowledge engineering check to figure out how the mechanism worked and a strength roll to get the statue head off.
In my opinion on of the Taldor Mission was poorly thought out and written. For one of the Taldor missions, you were required to observe the stances depicted in some statuary, and then to make a DC 15 Perform (Dance) check to successfully reproduce them………I have only seen a player take that skill for his character if they wanted to qualify for the shadow dancer prestige class.
The player playing the ranger said that he was actively studying the statures, and he was observing the tiger’s eyes monks in combat. I required him to take a full round observing the monks in combat, and then to make a DC15 Perception check to successfully complete the Faction Mission. I thought that was fair.
I hope these two examples help.
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Still, that means you're not going to get them all. And having missions that use less common skills, or higher DCs, rewards players who take flavour choices. As well, it somewhat balances the scales for those characters who are focused on things other than combat.
Another thing to keep in mind is that you can spend 1 PP for a +4 to any skill check (PFS Guide page 21). This is probably enough to make the DC if you are close. Your PP will net to zero, but you will gain a point of Fame, which is what really matters.
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I think one of the main problems is trying to manage player expectations of what their characters should be getting for Prestige.
I agree with this. I don't get upset if a mission calls for a skill my character doesn't have. If it were easy to get every single mission accomplished then there would be no point in tracking them.
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This is how I have handled impossible faction missions in the past.
Now this is a while ago, but I was running Assault on the Kingdom of the Impossible.
** spoiler omitted **
I hope these two examples help.
I would say you were fair in the first example (I have seen that alternative used in the past), but made the 2nd radically easier by substituting a much more frequently taken skill at the same DC. Particularly when there are already multiple other solutions provided in the scenario.
In general, make your players come up with the creative alternatives, don't do it for them.
Sorry if it seems I'm second guessing you, Elyas. I'm just trying to build on your examples. Especially as I'm somewhat familiar with that scenario ;)
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In short, it'd be better if the faction missions weren't all that easy.
I think it's more a matter of consistency between the factions. My first (IIRC) PFS module required a DC 25 Knowledge Engineering check to bring back the clockwork mechanism my faction wanted. Meanwhile, the other factions had relatively trivial tasks to complete.
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In short, it'd be better if the faction missions weren't all that easy.I think it's more a matter of consistency between the factions. My first (IIRC) PFS module required a DC 25 Knowledge Engineering check to bring back the clockwork mechanism my faction wanted. Meanwhile, the other factions had relatively trivial tasks to complete.
With that I agree. In some Season 0 scenarios Osirion mainly got "bring me this item" type of missions, while Andoran was constantly bombarded with "diplomacy this, diplomacy that" missions.
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Also, sometimes you can think of something inventive to completely bypass the skill check. GMs are supposed to reward creative solutions.
It's also been mentioned that sometimes a different skill check can be substituted (if it makes sense) for the current skill check, at a +5/10 DC penalty.
This is a good FAQ question.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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If people were *supposed* to get every single prestige point that is possible in a module, then what good is it actually writing them in to the campaign?
In other words, if the expectation is that a player gets ever prestige point, then there is no need to bother with the system. Simply give them the ability to buy whatever they want.
For the record, I'm in favor of some quests being impossible. It ticks me off when GMs hand-wave a skill check for me, even though I *know* my character can't accomplish it, just because they think PA shouldn't be "denied." That's crap.
Instead of being granted access to anything our little hearts desire, this system rewards role playing and creative thinking. I like that.
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We all agree that not all PP's are meant to be earned, but it doesn't change the "in game" look on a player's face when they fail. All they are looking at, in the moment, is a failure to succeed. And that can be a challenge to deal with. I have seen a number of temper tantrums from players who failed to earn a PP.
I am not saying that it should be easier or automatic, just that GM's can be influenced to "softball" missions to avoid conflict and not be tagged as a jerk.
I'm not against using trained only skills for factions missions, but the DC's should be reasonable. A sub-tier 1-2 mission that requires a DC25 Linguistics check is a bit harsh IMO.
The VC's did discuss whether or not there should be a standardized system for setting faction mission DC's for scenarios. Although, no final decision has been reached.
I like to see balanced mission difficulty with a reasonable chance of success. I also like to see inventive play rewarded. So if a player can reasonable explain how their PC is going to achieve success using alternate skills/abilities that what is scripted, I tend to allow it.
OTOH, the more I GM, the more I am inclined to further restrict outside interference in mission completions. IMO, hiring outside help to complete a mission is "cheese." Granted, it might make sense from a RL perspective, but I prefer to look upon Fame (PP) as something the character needs to earn for themself.
If the quarterback throws the winning touchdown in the super bowl, he will receive accolades (ie Fame). If all he did was participate in the game and avoid major mistakes while the running back did all the work and the defense held the other team down, sure he gets a ring (XP/GP), but did his fame really rise all that much, if at all? Especially with respect to his team (ie faction)?
And it is already enough of a stretch that PC's, supposedly from "opposing" factions, would be actively helping each other. I cringe whenever I see a loyal Taldan helping a cleric of Sarenrae, especially one belonging to the Qadiran faction.
The current society-wide success rate seems to be approximately 1.75 PP per scenario which is ahead of the intended 1.5. So I am not inclined to think there is a problem here.
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This is how I have handled impossible faction missions in the past.
Now this is a while ago, but I was running Assault on the Kingdom of the Impossible.
** spoiler omitted **
I hope these two examples help.
I would say you were fair in the first example (I have seen that alternative used in the past), but made the 2nd radically easier by substituting a much more frequently taken skill at the same DC. Particularly when there are already multiple other solutions provided in the scenario.
In general, make your players come up with the creative alternatives, don't do it for them.
Sorry if it seems I'm second guessing you, Elyas. I'm just trying to build on your examples. Especially as I'm somewhat familiar with that scenario ;)
If I remember correctly, it was the player who stated that his character, a ranger if I remember, was carefully observing the statues, and the monks when they entered combat.....and I thought a perception check would be a good skill check to see if he noticed and comprehended the patterns he was looking for.
Well with any situation, we GMs have to make the best judgment call that we can, sometimes we get it right, and sometimes we make mistakes. Hopefully we can learn from them.
I see the author of Assault of the Kingdom of the Impossible is Craig Shackleton. If i may ask, is he a relative of yours?
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Especially as I'm somewhat familiar with that scenario ;)If I remember correctly, it was the player who stated that his character, a ranger if I remember, was carefully observing the statues, and the monks when they entered combat.....and I thought a perception check would be a good skill check to see if he noticed and comprehended the patterns he was looking for.
Well with any situation, we GMs have to make the best judgment call that we can, sometimes we get it right, and sometimes we make mistakes. Hopefully we can learn from them.
I see the author of Assault of the Kingdom of the Impossible is Craig Shackleton. If i may ask, is he a relative of yours?
Cool. I was just trying to add some general advice using your example, not criticizing you. In general, because Perception is such a commonly taken skill, I would increase the DC if a player creatively justifies it as a substitute.
And yeah, he's some guy I started mentally scarring with my GM technique a bit over 30 years ago. Pretty sure that was the session I killed his first character ;) IIRC, we actually discussed the faction mission in question prior to submission.
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Of course, it always helps if we read what is under our nose......all of what is under our nose. I see that you mentioned you were trying to build on my example.
That must of been fun helping to put together a scenario .
Well when i fist ran the Assault on the kingdom of the Impossible, i noticed its "indian" flavor. For the fun of it I added a little "custom's scene" at the begining where the PCs were disembarking and they had to deal with and bribe a customs official. I did my best to trot out the appropriate accent (I'm sure I butchered it horribly) and we spent a few minutes haggling ...The players had fun....I told them not to deduct any gold from their character sheets....I was just having some fun.
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My only problem with faction missions and their difficulty is the use of Trained Only skills in a game where you never know who will be at the table.
I don't mind DC 20 Diplomacy checks for 1st-2nd level characters. By now the PLAYERS ought to know that you need a well rounded PC, not just a combat monkey. What I do mind is requiring the same level 1 ans 2 folks a DC 20 Handle Animal check, when the party has a good chance of not having anyone at the table have the skill.
Oh, and some of us average less than a 10 on a d20. I've had entiere sessions go by where I felt luck to roll a 12. And this was as a GM. Needless to say, the players like it when I run. Combats are easy.
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One thing I thought I should point out:
The DC's are usually set by the actual PFRPG rules, not just pulled out of a hat. So if the DC of a Diplomacy check seems very high, look at what the DCs are in the Core Rules, and you will usually see that they match.
That's also why most of the Missions do not scale by tier. For example, translating a phrase in Ancient Osirian is always going to be the same Linguistics DC, regardless of what level you are.
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Hi, Edward.
I wouldn't call that an impossible faction mission.
1) As you say, disguise.
2) Hiring a human intermediary.
3) The disguise self spell, now in convenient scroll form.
4) Charm Person.
So it was possible for the charactes to succeed; they just didn't roll well enough on Disguise, and didn't think of other ways around the impediment.
As a matter of fact, that sounds like a great story.
"Hey boss, we need some agents to talk to the lady who hates elves."
"Very well. Send ... those two."
"But boss! They're --"
"Cease your prattling, cretin. I have more important matters to concern me."
"But boss. I think --"
"Enough! Away with you."
"But --"
(stern glare)
If they had succeeded, against that impediment, it would have been a fun story to tell.
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I ran a Scenario where is was impossible for the characters to get the faction point.
I know exactly what scenario that is and my group had the same problem.
Fortunately, a human PC stepped in for the elf and got him the faction point. So it's not impossible.
Chris also had some options, Charm Person and the like is always possible (although it would start combat, possibly with the entire crew, if she saw it coming (Bluff vs Sense Motive) or makes her saving throw).
Regarding the other options, I don't think that Disguise (without magic) is a viable option. Picture this: You boarded the ship as an elf, I don't think disguising your ears is going to help. If you disguise yourself as a total stranger, and you were at sea with a very limited number of people, I think most of the crew would want to find out your identity or how you got on the ship. Since she's an elf hunter, it would be an epic fail if that were to happen (without magic). *Maybe* with a Disguise Self spell, but I'd say they would have to impersonate one of the Pathfinders or a member of the crew (and would still have a high DC), which could cause lots of fun (for the GM) as well.
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Hi, Edward.
I wouldn't call that an impossible faction mission.
1) As you say, disguise.
2) Hiring a human intermediary.
3) The disguise self spell, now in convenient scroll form.
4) Charm Person.
1) I believe, because of circumstances, there was a penalty. I think they would have failed even without a penalty, they rolled badly.
2) Not possible, due to circumstances. Secret faction mission, limited pool of people available.
3) Again, there would be a penalty to the disguise roll, or a bonus to the save DC.
4) I think they were both fairly straightforward martial characters, so spell casting was not an option.
To be honest, there is only so far outside the box you can go. And, in this specific scenario, the box is fairly solid. :(
Then again, I think the Charm Person spell is either overpowered for a 1st level spell, or mis-used quite a bit.